Running925

just as the title says.. i did some searching on here & can't seem to find any pix of peoples tore up synchro's, i've found a few where people are showin off their new ones.. but i'm trying to see how bad mine look in comparison to others.

thanks

Running925

bump.. c'mon.. somebody has to have some pix of bad synhro's

Running925

i'll look through my pix & see if i can find a couple post worth ones.. problem is that i just put my tranny all back together..

i'll see what i can come up with.. thanks for the responce

h22 civic

bad , worn will look rounded off good will look like a sharp arow

jhota

looking at those pics reminds me of an old hot-rod trick:

when replacing synchros, carefully grind off every other tooth. it'll make it easier for the synchro to line up with the sleeve if you're speed-shifting. may sound kind of nasty, but it'll shift better.

of course, it'll also shorten the life of the synchros. but if you're beating them up anyway, what's a little bit sooner replacement?

Running925

Awsome, thank you for the explaination & the pictures. It's definatly appreciated.

RTW DC2R

this will come in very helpful for me as well. thanks for the pics

IN VTEC

iTrader: (3)

I've got examples of worn synchros I can post. I might also have pictures of damaged synchros.

Running925

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IN VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've got examples of worn synchros I can post. I might also have pictures of damaged synchros.</TD></TR></TABLE>

please post them

Bense

you guys do realize that synchros and sleeves aren't the only things that wear out, correct?

tower of synchros


fucked up d16y8 2nd gear


reference picture


The inside of the synchros wear out as well, here's a new one:


I'll try to get some pics of a synchro that's been worn out on the inside.

Bense

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jhota &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">looking at those pics reminds me of an old hot-rod trick:

when replacing synchros, carefully grind off every other tooth. it'll make it easier for the synchro to line up with the sleeve if you're speed-shifting. may sound kind of nasty, but it'll shift better.</TD></TR></TABLE>

won't make a difference, look at the synchro sleeve.

743power

here is a 3rd gear sleeve from a z6 that got a little chewed up. You can see the dog teeth on the gear are messed up too. (bense, ever find that 3rd set?!?)

Wes V

Bense, you really amaze me!

When I first saw your "tower of syncros" I thought it was just a photoshop job!!!

Wes

Running925

this is some really good info. I'm planning to rebuild my first transmission this winter & i've been compairing my parts to the parts in these pictures, trying to figure out whats all broken or worn out in my transmission. These pictures & explainations are very helpful.

it was mentioned above that synchro's arn't th only things that wear out, i've seen some of these sleeves on here & it looks like it's pretty apparent when a gear is tore up, but what else goes bad. (obviously bearings go bad) but what else

Bense

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Running925 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">it was mentioned above that synchro's arn't th only things that wear out, i've seen some of these sleeves on here & it looks like it's pretty apparent when a gear is tore up, but what else goes bad. (obviously bearings go bad) but what else</TD></TR></TABLE>

from my experience in D trans, it's usually not the synchro that goes bad. I have found a few broken synchro springs though. 90% of the time it's the teeth on the synchro sleeve and the dog teeth on the gear that gets torn down. My buddy had a civic ex trans with over 200k on it. Never abused. When I took it apart everything looked fine. I could tell that he never powershifted or anything crazy like that. the bearings were kinda worn down, there was a bit of play in them.

RTW DC2R

bad sychros/sleeves will only cause shifting problems correct?

side note, now I know what dog teeth are

dpaton

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Running925 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">it was mentioned above that synchro's arn't th only things that wear out, i've seen some of these sleeves on here & it looks like it's pretty apparent when a gear is tore up, but what else goes bad. (obviously bearings go bad) but what else</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm tearing into a GSR trans that saw an impossibly hard 50k miles, and not only are the synchros and the dog teeth shot, the dual cone insert is gone, and the hubs and sleeves are trashed. Totally rounded over, edges mashed up, etc. The synchro springs are decidedly unhappy too. I'll see if I can get some pictures of mine to match up with the ones posted above.

Bearings and seals tend to go too, but not nearly as fast as the metal parts that crash together when the trans is abused.

Running925

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dpaton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I'm tearing into a GSR trans that saw an impossibly hard 50k miles, and not only are the synchros and the dog teeth shot, the dual cone insert is gone, and the hubs and sleeves are trashed. Totally rounded over, edges mashed up, etc. The synchro springs are decidedly unhappy too. I'll see if I can get some pictures of mine to match up with the ones posted above.

Bearings and seals tend to go too, but not nearly as fast as the metal parts that crash together when the trans is abused. </TD></TR></TABLE>

i'd really appreciate the pix.. as well as a DIY if your feeling up to it.

dpaton

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mausball/261204922/http://www.flickr.com/photos/mausball/261204983/http://www.flickr.com/photos/mausball/261205343/http://www.flickr.com/photos/mausball/261205429/http://www.flickr.com/photos/mausball/261205583/http://www.flickr.com/photos/mausball/261205655/http://www.flickr.com/photos/mausball/261205724/
There isn't much of a DIY...I followed the instructions in the Helms manual. It's about as step by step as you can ask for. You'll need 2 kinds of bearing pullers, some short 2x4s to rest things on, a deadblow hammer, gloves, a metric fuckton of shop rags and simple green, an assortment of sockets, a breaker bar, a set of snap ring pliers, and patience.

Note especially the dog teeth that have their edges peened out, forming a lip at the edge of each dog tooth, and the ones that are completely round at the edge. The inside of the sleeve was equally f'd. It takes some impressive abuse to do that to the gears.

Unfortunately, I didn't take any pictures during the disassembly. I'll see if I can do better once I get all my parts and start rebuilding this beast.

Also, pics of the trashed dual cone setup are coming.


Modified by dpaton at 9:34 PM 10/10/2006

Running925

Great pix..

what did this tranny feel like prior to your tear down?

dpaton

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Running925 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Great pix..</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thanks. I take photos semiprofessionally, but these were with my little P&S digicam. I though they came out especially well, all things considered.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Running925 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what did this tranny feel like prior to your tear down?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't know. I got it after it was pulled from the car. The seller told me it was grinding in 3rd. Looking at the gears, I think it was grinding in everything from 1st to 4th, and it probably felt terrible. The damage on 1 and 2 tells me the trans was thrashed hard, and that revmatched shifting would have been nearly mandatory to prevent that crunchy noise we all hate so much (and even then it would have been iffy). There was also an obscene amount of metal on the magnet, as I mentioned before, as well as a small bolt that didn't match anything missing from inside the trans case. The amount of metal removed from the gears....it would have felt bad. Really really bad.

Running925

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dpaton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Thanks. I take photos semiprofessionally, but these were with my little P&S digicam. I though they came out especially well, all things considered.


I don't know. I got it after it was pulled from the car. The seller told me it was grinding in 3rd. Looking at the gears, I think it was grinding in everything from 1st to 4th, and it probably felt terrible. The damage on 1 and 2 tells me the trans was thrashed hard, and that revmatched shifting would have been nearly mandatory to prevent that crunchy noise we all hate so much (and even then it would have been iffy). There was also an obscene amount of metal on the magnet, as I mentioned before, as well as a small bolt that didn't match anything missing from inside the trans case. The amount of metal removed from the gears....it would have felt bad. Really really bad.</TD></TR></TABLE>

thanks for this info. I'm really learning a lot from this thread & seeing these pictures. I'm very mechanicly skilled but have never messed with transmissions before other than a honda crf50 mini bike that is a 3spd centrifical clutch. I've build my own forged b18 & it's held up great but it's time for me to get a GSR transmission on it. I've currently got the factory service manual but it doesn't show me hardly anything for the tranny so i'll be picking up my helms from the parts store in the next day or so & i'll be pulling my tranny apart to find out what all needs replaced. I was told that the synchro's were bad in it when i purchased the the tranny. I'll be sure to take tons of pix & hopfully some of you guys can help me to determine what all needs replaced in there. I'm planning to purchase a set of carbon coated synchro's from gearspeed at this point. Please point me in the right direction if i'm making a mistake in doing so.

Thanks for all the help thus far.
tony

dpaton

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Running925 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'll be sure to take tons of pix & hopfully some of you guys can help me to determine what all needs replaced in there. I'm planning to purchase a set of carbon coated synchro's from gearspeed at this point. Please point me in the right direction if i'm making a mistake in doing so. </TD></TR></TABLE>
After you get the Helms manual, read the section on the manual transaxle through a few times. Go out to the garage, and stare at the trans (before you open it) and try to visualize what's inside. Once you get the case halves, seperated, repeat a few times. Spending this time up front to make sure you know exactly what goes where, and more importantly, why, is very helpful when you go to put everything back together.

Unfortunately, you can also plan on spending a lot of money. If the synchros are gone, odds are the hubs are gone too. Gearspeed only sells carbon synchros for 3-5 for the GSR (they don't do the dual cone in carbon coated, though I've been bugging them for a year), so save a few pennies and get the factory 1-2 kit (which inclues synchros, hub, sleeve, springs, etc). It's not cheap, but it'll give you a really smooth trans when you're done, especially for 1-2. Also plan on replacing all of the bearings and seals. Keep track of your shims, they're important. If you want an LSD in your car, this is the time to install it. Take your time, have a clean work area, and take lots of pictures to remind yourself where everything went. Plan on having everything disassembled for a little while to clean the case halves. Get out all the gunk you can while you can. A big tub, a container of Simple Green concentrate, some brushes and sponges, and an afternoon is all it takes.

Once you get the main and countershafts reassembled, things are pretty easy. There aren't very many parts if you consider the assembled shafts to be a single unit each.

Feel free to ask questions. That's what we're all here for after all

Running925

Thanks for the input. I've already had the case apart twice to look at it but this was prior to knowing what the hell i was really looking at. I was planning on getting the complete set of synchros form gear speed (including the 1-2) It didn't look like it came with the sleeves so i kept digging & saw that they sell those seperately. If there is a complete package with the bearings & seals that i could purchase from them for a better price then that would be even better but i didn't see one. I was planning on purchasing the OBX LSD for this transmission, i've read that there is some type of shimming issue that people have to deal with that somewhats scares me because i dont' understand it completly so i'm hoping that there won't be an issue with that. I've read a lot of good reviews about the obx lsd from people that have been using it & really beating on them.

Estimate on money i'm going to have to spend on this:
$225 (1-2 oem 3-5 gearspeed carbon coated synchros)
$175 (gearspeed sleeve set)
$225 Bearings & Seals
$450 OBX LSD

Now there is a chance that when i open this thing up & look at it now that i somewhat know what i'm looking at, that i may not have to replace all of this. But in the event that everything is bad other than the gears, can you forsee any other expences in parts?

I was also hoping that i could powder coat the cases while i had everything apart. Is there anything thats in tehre that would prevent me from being able to do so. I own my own powder coating shop & it would be rather easy for me to do this & i know it would look really cool.

dpaton

Along with the synchros and sleeves, make sure you get new synchro springs, friction modifiers, and the rest of the parts that are invoved with the synchro set. I don't remember if Gearspeed includes those bits when you buy their parts...I need to call them up again and chat about my trans parts too. The OBX is a great LSD for the track, if you don't mind rebuilding it from time to time, and if you can tolerate it chattering on the street. Personally, I'm going either Quaife ABD or Spoon 1.5-way because I want it more for winter driving than track use, but that's a personal choice.

The shimming issue is covered completely in the Helms manual. Your friendly Acura parts counter will have all the pieces you need.

Don't worry about buying the special tools the manual specifies, unless you have a lot of loose cash, except for the clutch alignment tool. A normal deep ledge 3 jaw gear puller, a pilot bearing puller (freebie borrowed tool from AutoZone), a deadblow and some wood will get everything apart for you on the main and countershafts.

You'll want to follow the disassembly instructions carefully in the Helms manual. They detail how to inspect clearances on each part as you pull them out, and that will build your shopping list for you. Shift forks are the other thing that wear heavily in these transmissions. Odds are they're fine, but check them out for wear and straightness just to be sure. A micrometer (0-1", 1-2") is handy here, or a very accurate dial caliper. Feeler gauges are a requirement too, but I assume you already have both. You do have both if you're rebuilding a transmission, right?

Powdercoating the case..just make sure to mask it all off around everything that isn't the official 'outside' of the trans. Mask threaded holes, the vent tube, etc. I've seen ti done a few times, and it can look very nice. Personally, I just scrub mine with Simple Green and let it be. The salt on the roads here in the winter clobbers the finish every year anyway.