RC000E

Having moved my shop 45 min. out into the middle of nowhere, imagine my surprise when my business over tripled. I quickly found myself submerged, and while having several part time guys that serve as labor and mechanical, I have no true fab guys. I do all the TIG, all the mani's, all the mockup, and all the tuning.

I realize I simply can't keep up. I'm considering training someone for full time fab position, but I just don't see the ability in alot of people to make mani's and go from the mentally visualized state to the reality state. In addition, I can't simply pay someone full time wages and standby waiting until they figure everything out.

Are any of you coming across guys that are simply just able to make mani's/do complex fab? How many of you are actually "making" guys into fab guys? I have always been wary of starting someone from scratch, not to mention my time to train someone is beyond limited. I've considered low cost internship, and I've also considered paying someone flat-rate in the beginning...that way they control their pay, and at the same time don't consume 15 hours pay to make a three hour part.

Insight??

david@didrace.com

Good luck.

I've sorted through 5 fabricators within 2 months and they all forget how to weld at random or had incompatible attitudes. I just recently called up Lincoln Welding School, WyoTech and UTI and had them send me lists of recent graduates. I'm sure I'll find one at some point, hopefully soon.

weiRtech

post some of your stuff on local car forums. i just had a guy ask if i was looking for a welder after posting a recent manifold i did. i'm not really looking for someone, but i said if he wants to come down and atleast show me what he is capable of i'd give him the time. i may need some help in the future.

as for paying an employee... that is a long road for me to go down since i don't have any right now so it is really cheap without the added cost of additional insurance (wsib), etc. i'd probably offer someone casual part time and pay them cash. learning would be part of the job, just like any job. whoever you hire is going to need some time to get their bearings and figure things out. if it comes to them naturally it won't take long and you will want to keep them. if it doesn't, just say thanks for the help, but i can manage without you now or whatever.

i'd almost rather hire someone with limited experience so i can shape them into the employee i want. getting someone to break bad habits is hard to do. when i started my apprenticeship, the guy i worked for had that idea and it worked great for him because everyone was trained the way he wanted them trained. kinda like cloning himself in the practices/methods he used in the shop.

CRMB

We hire all of our welders from community colleges and the local high school tech program. Most still need 3-4 weeks of intensive training to be worth much.

As soon as you bring on board employees, you need workman's compensation (to cover them) and commercial liability insurance (to cover you). You'll also need payroll accounting and you'll probably have to be registered with your city/county for the number of employees your business has. The insurance will probably require fire & building department inspection.

NLR

ive tried to get some help in the past and it seems like this place is full of guys with awesome potential. I must say I have never seen so many guys that can weld as I have on here. Taking a project and handing it over to someone and just telling them. We need to turbocharge this and here are all your parts....get at it . I know there are a lot of deer in alabama but I didnt realize a human could stare at me the same way when I say that.

Next is the welding. Some of them are fresh out of school and my wife tigs better.

AspectIndustries

Get the Wife/GF to go at it!

If thats not an option...then...Start making babies, they work for free when they can handle a tig.

But, I would really look into internships etc, they can at least start tacking and cleaning. -=P and help you do the little things to start, and move forward.

HT Chaplain

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RC000E &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Having moved my shop 45 min. out into the middle of nowhere, imagine my surprise when my business over tripled. I quickly found myself submerged, and while having several part time guys that serve as labor and mechanical, I have no true fab guys. I do all the TIG, all the mani's, all the mockup, and all the tuning.

I realize I simply can't keep up. I'm considering training someone for full time fab position, but I just don't see the ability in alot of people to make mani's and go from the mentally visualized state to the reality state. In addition, I can't simply pay someone full time wages and standby waiting until they figure everything out.

Are any of you coming across guys that are simply just able to make mani's/do complex fab? How many of you are actually "making" guys into fab guys? I have always been wary of starting someone from scratch, not to mention my time to train someone is beyond limited. I've considered low cost internship, and I've also considered paying someone flat-rate in the beginning...that way they control their pay, and at the same time don't consume 15 hours pay to make a three hour part.

Insight??

</TD></TR></TABLE>

How much are you paying? Maybe I should get out of the USCG j/k

manifoldmiketyson

its a crap shoot for sure.

i've been going through the same process.

the welding isn't the hard thing to teach at all. usually takes a month or two to get newbs welding pretty good.

fabricating is a different story. most think the welding is the hard part.

by far, more mistakes are made with construction.

unfortunatly fresh guys won't usually make their own decisions and its usually because they can't. not that they don't know how to do somthing, but they've never done it. they will usually cover their *** to avoid getting in trouble. this means that you production will take a hit, because you can't build anything anymore in a timely fasion. you'll be teaching half the time.

also, even a fairly good guy will do the work usually in twice the time at first.

most of the guys that i've trained and/or training right now, take things extremely literal, so if you choose to make the leap and start from scratch make sure you have some patience and also make sure you directions are clear. you'll also have to repeat yourself more then once. this is usually were i become a dick, but i've been working on it. its hard to see somthing easy and understand that its not easy for someone else. there will be a lot of "common sense" mistakes for sure.

if i were to look right now, i would scoop people that are good performance mechanics and teach them.

fabricators are usually good with directions and prints. once you start getting into mechanic's it may be a pretty big battle.

most of the mistakes at my work have nothing to do with fab and weld, but more of placement and fitment, which usually comes from experience being a mechanic.

Masta

the problem is, the good welders are expensive. I have had many offers from local shops, but 20$ an hour isn't going to cut it. Being that I am 34 and have been welding for 10 years and I have a family, I have far too many responsibilities to accept a low paying job just so I can work on cars. The good welders get hired in a hurry, and when an employer recognizes skill, he'll do whatever it takes to keep that kind of employee. When we get big contracts at the shop, we go through loads of guys before we "settle" on somebody that is OK but has a good attitude.

Good welders are becoming more and more scarce, which is good if you're a welder, not so good if you're looking for one.

Weirtech(Aaron) I wish you were closer, I'd love to come weld for you for some cash, just to work on your CRXS2K project!!

RC000E

Well, what I've been finding is that TIG isn't so hard to teach, but like ManifoldMike said, having them build parts/products certainly is. I have to say, I was a bit surprised to find that guys I've had working with me for years now, when given an opportunity to build a simple manifold....they threw in the towel.

I was disappointed and I just really felt surprised that noone can build a mani. I don't feel like I take things for granted, and of course I've learned some tricks over time, but even my first ones really didn't seem too difficult. I've got this (I'm gonna take a phrase from my old Paramedic days)...I've got this "feeling of impending doom". Like, the orders will come, and finding someone capable of lightening the load just won't.

I suppose the search continues. I just remembered AFI Jesse saying they had like 5 guys working 6 days/wk. I was thinking, damn you have 5 guys all in one building that can make that stuff...lol.

Teglove2

Yeah but also remember where Jesse lives and the shops that surround him. People flock to that area. People dont flock to PA lol. Every fab shop ive worked at is running into the same problem...Slowmotion, Shearer Fab ,Wiseco, etc and even my current job doing aviation repair. Places are dying for good welders. Problem is, no good, experienced welder will take a low paying job because we all had to pay our dues in the past. I didnt get paid **** for the first 4 years. You really just have to get lucky and find a prodigy. My current job is INSANE about peoples attitudes. Get a kid with morals and a good attitude and most likely it will work out.
Although welding may not be THAT hard to learn I tend to think it is VERY hard to be good at. I often disagree on here when people say, "Wow that looks great." Being "ok" and being great are two different ballparks. Good luck

shortyz21

finding someone that shows up to work every day of the week is a challenge enough.


i find u get a good guy who rarely shows up

or

a sub par guy that will amount to nothing, who shows up everyday.

TurboSI56

It's reflected on how much you want to pay someone. For 10-15$ an hour i'd definitely expect having to train someone or somewhat hold their hands. Any of my employees depending on the job they do will get paid 20$ an hour especially for manifold / downpipe fab. Or piece work depending on how efficient they are.

so if i have an order for like 5 log manifolds I'll give them the option to take the piece work pay which is like 42$ a manifold some guys can knock it 4 a day so they actually pocket 168$ or 21$ an hour. Plus it motivates them to stop dickin around smokin cigs and chatting with friends all day

SovXietday

Damn, RC if you were closer I'd be kissing *** right now trying to be the shop n00b in training.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by manifoldmiketyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
unfortunatly fresh guys won't usually make their own decisions and its usually because they can't. not that they don't know how to do somthing, but they've never done it. they will usually cover their *** to avoid getting in trouble. this means that you production will take a hit, because you can't build anything anymore in a timely fasion. you'll be teaching half the time.

also, even a fairly good guy will do the work usually in twice the time at first.

most of the guys that i've trained and/or training right now, take things extremely literal, so if you choose to make the leap and start from scratch make sure you have some patience and also make sure you directions are clear. you'll also have to repeat yourself more then once. this is usually were i become a dick, but i've been working on it. its hard to see somthing easy and understand that its not easy for someone else. there will be a lot of "common sense" mistakes for sure.

if i were to look right now, i would scoop people that are good performance mechanics and teach them.

fabricators are usually good with directions and prints. once you start getting into mechanic's it may be a pretty big battle.

most of the mistakes at my work have nothing to do with fab and weld, but more of placement and fitment, which usually comes from experience being a mechanic.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm quoting this because I would be what most of you would call a "fresh" guy. I've been working on cars proffessionally for about 2 months now under a local shop. I've done pretty much all of the above, with emphasis on the being slow and being wary to make my own decisions. Biggest thing with me is the decisions. I see where things need to be and where they need to go, but if it's not as easy as pull the bolts off and swap out I will generally have to ask a question or get a second opinion. Not because I don't know what I need to do, but it's more like asking permission and double checking my judgement I guess you could say. Sounds stupid, but I know that I will work out of it as I get more comfortable with my mechanical skills and whatnot.

Oh and I'd kill for a fabrication internship like thinger. That's really what I want to do, but mechanics is a close 2nd.

manifoldmiketyson

welders are expensive.

i don't consider myself a good welder, its taken me a long time to get where i'm at. i can teach somone to weld better then me in a matter of weeks.

usually the problems start to happen with they can produce a product that has great construstion and is cosmetically pleasing in a short time actaully doing it.

this is where they will start demading more money.

so now that you've put in all the time and effort, your going to pay probably as much as somone that already knew how to do the work. except your not getting somone experienced that can actually make decisions that will be acceptable. the one plus to this situation is that you have somone that is trained on your terms. there isn't attitudes from past jobs or experiences.

i like mechanics. they are multifacited so if there isn't fab work, you can put them on regular stuff with no problem. they usually work harder and also understand you have to make money to get paid more money.

fab guys are usually salary workers and most that have had experience, don't uderstand the whole business side of making stuff. they know they are making a nice product, following directions and picking up their check.

most don't care about time it takes or how to design or build somthing to save a customer money, ultimatley making it easyer to sell a product.

if your going to pay $15~$20+/hr, you should get somone that can do a ton of different stuff.

average tig welder in usa makes $17/hr.

welfarepc

this topic has opened my eyes, i will be applying at some fab shops in the near future

9295EJ-t

iTrader: (1)

i have not been put in your shoes yet RC... i am not an employer yet, still doin my own thing.. but i hope to be where you are at now, one day...

anyways, the only advice i have, is maybe you should do a little bit of contracting...

send you work elswhere, and have them get a percentage..

the last fab shop i worked at, we had other fab shops send work to us, because they didn't do tig work, or just simply couldnt do what they were given to do..

jlude90

i've been eyeballing places, i used to work at a fab place, and i've got a basic knowledge of MIG, but havn't done it for a few years, and i've done alot on the car, swapped the engine, done all the BS that goes along with that, IE making stuff fit that shouldn't be there, and now i'm making my own traction bars

and i've contacted a few places trying to get on as BS jobs, but it seems like no one is hiring

XAT was looking for a helper and i was hoping to get in there to work, and learn fab stuff, but they wanted some drifter kid who was "cool" enough, and they wanted someone who was 21, so apparently it was a bullshit grabass position that i'm happy i didn't get

and then when S&R in Tampa got a new manager i was looking to get in as a helper with Mranlet and Durdan, and learn fab stuff from them, but it didn't seem to pan out

thats what kills me, i'm willing to work for peanuts, WANT to learn, i'm knowledgable and pick things up somewhat quick and once i understand something, as in the theory behind it, i'm pretty good to do it

but nobody wants to give me a shot, so i'm stuck doing work for my uncle doing A/C work

and hell, i'd even shadow a fabricator on the weekend for cheap/free just to learn, but it seems people don't think anything of that

i don't know, this kinda turned into an unhappy rant, but it seems like there are people who are looking for some good help, but nobody in Tampa wants to take a shot or whatever you want to call it

narfdanarf

My dad runs into this problem all the time. Basically he trains people to near his level of knowledge. Eventually they think they can do it on their own and better and try to run their own business, they fail at life and come back asking for a job. Being that he is a kinda hearted person, he of course hires them and they eventually quit because they feel inferior at that point and most men don't like to admit they were wrong. My dad has 30 years worth of contacts/customers in his field and people just don't realize you can't build that **** up in a month.


Oh and I almost forgot, they always tend to pocket tools/equipment/supplies when they leave. &lt;/rant&gt;

GT35R_EF

It's funny that this came up. If only there was someone like that around here! I think your best bet would be finding someone out of trade school. I know my brother is going to be recently certified in nearly every form of welding and would kill for an opportunity like this, even to work for free until qualified enough to work for pay. When you find someone who really loves it, they will take the time and learn without paying for it. Good luck man

E-Rok

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jlude90 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i've been eyeballing places, i used to work at a fab place, and i've got a basic knowledge of MIG, but havn't done it for a few years, and i've done alot on the car, swapped the engine, done all the BS that goes along with that, IE making stuff fit that shouldn't be there, and now i'm making my own traction bars

and i've contacted a few places trying to get on as BS jobs, but it seems like no one is hiring

XAT was looking for a helper and i was hoping to get in there to work, and learn fab stuff, but they wanted some drifter kid who was "cool" enough, and they wanted someone who was 21, so apparently it was a bullshit grabass position that i'm happy i didn't get

and then when S&R in Tampa got a new manager i was looking to get in as a helper with Mranlet and Durdan, and learn fab stuff from them, but it didn't seem to pan out

thats what kills me, i'm willing to work for peanuts, WANT to learn, i'm knowledgable and pick things up somewhat quick and once i understand something, as in the theory behind it, i'm pretty good to do it

but nobody wants to give me a shot, so i'm stuck doing work for my uncle doing A/C work

and hell, i'd even shadow a fabricator on the weekend for cheap/free just to learn, but it seems people don't think anything of that

i don't know, this kinda turned into an unhappy rant, but it seems like there are people who are looking for some good help, but nobody in Tampa wants to take a shot or whatever you want to call it</TD></TR></TABLE>


Id be pretty happy with doing A/C work if you ask me.

dave@passenger

Geez, I'd be happy to find a good tig welder for under $30/hr, I can't find anyone even half decent for $25/hr.

jlude90

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by E-Rok &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Id be pretty happy with doing A/C work if you ask me.</TD></TR></TABLE>

its FL, its hot as hell and we do the hotel ACs, so 90% of the time we're working on the blacktop in the sun

i want to make things, i want to fabricate, my old job was in a warehouse and it was over 100 degrees, but i loved it because i was fabbing stuff up, making stuff work

not soldering in a compressor and filling it with freon, it gets old fast, and is not the career i want, i even wanted to go back to the fab job i had, but they didn't have an open position

delspool

i find it so strange that you have trouble finding good help

im graduating wyotech in a week after being in their chassis fab/automotive etc. program and would kill for a job like the one you are describing


Modified by delspool at 5:28 PM 6/16/2008

postman

**** i wish i lived closer man. id be all over this. maybe in the future if your around and still need help.