Teglove2

Thanks guys, the car made 452 whp on 15 psi completely stock motor. Customer is ecstatic

Teglove2

Incredible spool with the GTX wheel too

that-guy

coming from somebody who models aircraft parts for fabrication for a living, i can def. appreciate this, i just know that there are several complex steps to get from a solid chunk of material to the end product, so machine time, plus labor, material, it just doesnt make sense on a large scale, where you can spend a ton less money cutting your angles and welding the collector together, which has been proven to work on cars for years on end

for the one guy here and there who wants to pay the money for the machined collector for the "cool" factor, good for them. i just know first hand being in the sheetmetal and machining industry for almost 10 years that this is a 1 off type of thing, but not cost effective for mass production

hoochhenry

well said ,i think the old way works just as well and will produce the same power on a dyno that a billet collector can ,i just love the look of oldschool collectors its a pure pice of art work and skill plus they dont cost much ,billet id buy for cams

Teglove2

You obviously don't build cars for a living, the welding on the collector, mainly the wastegate arm is the main failure point on many "high end" manifolds. Billet collector GUARANTEE reliability. To me that's priceless

Teglove2

To my point, no one would be making cast or billet collectors if the "old way" worked so well. I've been in the Honda scene for 10 years, I've seen a full race manifold crack . It's a metallurgical failure not necessarily the welder. If you hand weld collectors it's only a matter of time before you have toe cracking.

Now that the large investment has been made, the cost goes way down. Building collectors by hand is also extremely time consuming to make a QUALITY piece. If I can pass the cost increase along to a customer to allow myself to make him the most reliable manifold possible then I'm absolutely going to be able to do it. I save wear and tear on my bandsaws and save a lot of money on consumables.

Lastly, the ultimate goal is to attract exotic clientele, I'm making Honda headers out of pure passion . Honda guys are cheap, I know I'm one of them lol. Everyone is trying to undercut each other. I do not want any part of that, my goal is to make the highest quality parts, quality or quantity.

I hope this clears up this "debate"

KevinEF7

The fact that the wastegate elbow will never crack definetely is priceless

End result was very impressive

that-guy

i deal with metallurgy all day long, writing analysis for aircraft parts that while in flight will see WAY more stress than any of these cars ever will...the problem with wastegate placement is vibration. so long as you can get as much of the vibration under control (ie: using flex bellows in the right locations) you should never see cracking with even decent welds

i am not arguing the fact that this product is far superior to the tried and true way that things have always been done, but your arguement that at some point ALL manifolds will fail because the wastegate isnt integrated but instead welded, is quite frankly mute

furthermore, so long as the weight of the wastegate isn't putting stress on the joint coming out of the manifold, and the weld has even somewhat decent penetration, the only way that would crack is if the rest of the system (ie: dump tubes) wasnt designed accordingly to remove as much of the stress from that joint as possible. a good manifold is only as good as what ties it to the rest of the system

HellaFab

Long screamer pipes that aren't supported and non bellowed recirculating wastegate pipes are the issue with wastegate arm failure.

Nice piece though.

that-guy

case and point

TannerS14

Regardless of any of the objections, its an interesting thread and that's why there's been so much disccussion. Everyone wants 5 axis goodies lol.

Absolutely beautiful piece man. Spot on fitment and puddle control. Stout numbers on that turbo, the new GTX'
s are definately killing it. I cant wait to see more dyno's of people running them. Bet that car is a ****** blast.

siblues

iTrader: (1)

Very nice work man its always nice to see new things being made .I know you aren't the first but its not often I get to see someone think outside the box.

Billet

The price on even the most complex parts go way down when the quantities are large enough and the process is fine-tuned. Stainless steel of course costs a bit but for smaller collectors it won't be that expensive.

Cast collectors are in theory pretty nice if you don't mind the less than shiny look. But when you consider you have T3/T4/T6, both in single scroll and dual scroll and different pipe size and waste gate combinations you quickly end up with way too many molds for it to make sense.

A company in Finland has been making and selling billet merge collectors for a while now already: http://elmerracing.com/raceshop/exha...ge-collectors/



It's interesting to see others are now making these on 3axis machines also, although I'm not sure how efficient that is.

RO_SUNNY

At almost 200 USD...you can fabricate almost 3 welded collectors))))))

What's the point?

redboost10

I'm still lost on the whole using pipe for manifolds idea. I don't care who welds it, robot or human, it will crack.

efHondefender

versus?

redboost10

tubing. it can withstand the vibration a heck of a lot more than pipe

TracerAcer2.2L

I would be one of those exotic clientele. Though I am NA rather than turbo, I would like one of these when I get a custom header. Glad I saw this and now know it's a "thing".

Boost_Ob

I think it looks great but the fact still stands that it is made from stainless. The argument that a non welded collector will not crack is only valid if the temperatures are kept low enough that the carbon doesn't come out of solution (Either that or Ti is included to stabilize the material) and energies and vibrations are also kept low. It will definitely reduce the likely hood of it happening by reducing stress concentrations (Geometric) and removing the heat affected zone (metallurgic) but personally i wouldn't be guaranteeing it wouldn't crack.

I have been building manifolds from carbon steel for many years and have never had any cracks in them. Even my early ones which were done when i didn't have a real understanding of the requirements of a weld and were quite frankly pretty ordinary. Those have had to behave under some extreme conditions and loads and not a single crack. One on my own vehicle got so hot it turned the ceramic coating to chalk and ruined a ball bearing turbo but not a single fault with the manifold many years on. Pretty much all manifold manufacturers in Australia use carbon steel and most give a lifetime guarantee against failure. The only thing is you don't get the "bling" factor that you get with stainless.

however saying that e85 is gaining momentum in Oz and with the lower EGT's we may see stainless manifolds starting to appear.

Billet

Lifetime guarantee doesn't mean they won't crack though, I know for a fact that for example 6boost manifolds have failed on track cars. That quickly becomes expensive for the manufacturer.

For the random DIYer who wants to put something together as cheaply as possible a billet collector perhaps doesn't make sense, but for the "higher-end" manifold makers it makes a lot of sense. They save a ton of time not having to make their own collectors and they get exact tolerances and a product that is less likely to fail....giving them an advantage over other manufacturers.

Boost_Ob

I guess it would depend on whether it was a recent manifold or an early one. His welding in the early days was not much chop and i would be betting it would be the weld that let it down. I have not personally seen a cracked 6 boost manifold but i have seen other manifolds which have cracked and it is usually right in the middle of the weld metal not HAZ and the manifold usually has very poor welding. One of my early manifolds (poor prep and ordinary welding) on a skyline was involved in an accident which resulted in a tree impacting the front quarter pushing the turbo into the motor. It squashed the runners against each other and wrecked the turbo. A new turbo and a lot of panel work later the car was up and running with the same manifold.

When i do mine now i treat the material like you would stainless or aluminium and make sure its spotless. Its amazing the difference in weld appearance and quality when using clean materials. What is even more amazing is the amount of guys who build manifolds locally who do no such cleaning of their materials.

I have nothing against a cnc collectors. I think they are better than fabricated ones no doubt. I was just amused at the comments about the guarantee against cracking while still using a stainless. Judging by the polished finish im assuming its an austenitic stainless (304?). If you are going to the effort of machining up CNC collector and want to retain stainless i would have done it from a 321 stainless with the Ti to stabilize at higher temps. It wont polish up real well but would drastically reduce the likely hood of embrittlement due to carbide precipitation.

Just my 2c.

lil_foy

We had one of our 6boost manifolds crack at the collector in two spots on a sr20vet But best thing is, drop the manifold back to him and repaired/replaced free of charge.