Mr.E.G.

Ok. I have heard a lot of theories about how roll cages should be built in regard to chassis stiffening. I have heard contradictory theories and the waters have been muddied further by limitations and rules set in place by various racing classes as they often require certain roll cage components that certain people consider to be less effective. (a perfect example would be that most racing bodies require the main hoop to be made of a single bent piece of tubing, where i have heard people say that a stronger main hoop can be made from several pieces)

i have read a couple of books that touch on chassis stiffening and the basic gist i get from those books is that triangles make things stronger and a bendy chassis sucks. these books have been vague to say the least.

this thread may crash and burn but what i would like to see it become is a thread where the uninformed (such as myself) can ask questions, and the well informed can show off their work and we can all discuss the various theories and techniques.

I'll start with some questions:

when building a cage for the purpose of stiffening a chassis, what is the best starting point? do you have to use a chassis jig or do you start welding in tubing as the vehicle sits?

how do you count how many "points" a cage is?

also, i'd like to start a discussion about roll cage safety in street cars. i have heard many people say that having a cage in a street car is unsafe. i truly think that this is over exaggerated and that like many other "common knowledge" pieces of car trivia, someone said it and people just started regurgitating it as if it is fact.

the way i see it, if you have an absurd amount of bars protruding into the cabin, it could propose a safety risk. but with a normal cage where the longitudinal bar that runs along the roof line and connects the a pillar bar to teh b pillar bar, i cant see how this is very dangerous. people seem to forget that your car itself is made from metal and your interior is just flimsy plastic or cloth that loosely drapes that metal. in the event that you head strikes the factory metal of your cars frame, im sure it would cause some damage just the same. hitting a piece of roll cage tubing would suck just the same, but probably not any more than hitting the frame piece thats already there, especially if your cage has padding on it.

i also hear people say that it is so dangerous because the factory metal for your cars frame is far away from your head and the roll cage is that much closer to your head. well thats kind of pointless. the increase in distance from your head to metal could be achieved by driving a smaller car where your head naturally is closer to the frame. for example, if you sit in an integra your head will be 10 inches from the closest metal that you may potentially strike your head on. (im pulling numbers out of my *** here) if you put a roll cage in your integra, that would mean that the metal that spans your head is now about 8 inches away from your head. but if you hop in a crx that is bone stock, your head sits 6 inches away from the metal as the car sits bone stock. so its hard to argue that the integra is now so terribly unsafe.

i do agree that roll cages are generally unsafe for rear passengers and whatnot, as they can be thrown forward into a piece of cage and hit it pretty hard. but the statement that unless the driver is wearing a helmet that he is in mortal danger seems to me to simply be a myth. i think the added resistance to chassis deformation when involved in an accident adds much more to your safety than the presence of a piece of a piece of metal being 1 inch closer to your head than the metal thats already there does to put you in harms way. discuss.

Ekasey

Ok lets get it started.

First fact: Roll cages are primarily designed as a safety structure used to attenuate a impact at racing speeds, while dispersing the energy through the chassis and maintianing the shape of the car to allow the driver a safe egress from the vehicle.

so on that note WITH A ROLL STRUCTURE YOUR PRIMARY CONCERN IS DRIVER SAFETY NOT THE STIFFENING OF YOUR RACE VEHICLE. The fact is 98% of drivers probably couldn't drive a stiffer car faster then one that was more flexible anyways. Most ameteur race cars are so underdeveloped and lack the proper engineering its a wonder they go as fast as they do.

Rules are set in place by sanctioning bodies and their insurance companies. In some aspects they aren't as safe as another solution but they foot the bill if you bit the big one so its play by their rules or don;t play at all.

Most cages are built with the idea of stiffening the chassis in mind and this is so horriblly wrong. A cage is meant to be able to deform and disperse the energy from the impact as to reduce the given load the drivers body may see.

First off let's ask this question why on earth do you need a cage in a street car? If it's a dual purpose car I can understand that. The problem being is that some fabricators lack the talent and or general common sense too place the bars far enough away from the driver and thats where the problem lies. I don;t see it being a huge deal if a few things are done right

Driver of said Car is always wearing a helmet and is properly restrained in a six point harness

proper padding is used in any spot where the driver body may contact the roll structure

bars are place at the absolut furthest point away from the driver as possiblle.

Anyways that ends my tidbit for now I'm sure this will be an interesting thread

weiRtech

i've never made a cage, i've just read things and have opinions like everyone else.

first, i count points on a cage by how many points it is welded to the original body of the car. so if 3 bars join at one point, that counts as 1 point, not 3. also, if there are gussets to the body they count as points. this is my interpretation although it may be wrong. i'm sure someone will chime in if it is.

second, i agree, a cage is to protect the driver, before stiffening the chassis. if built properly it can do both. i feel that adding gussets to the body are very important for both safety and chassis stiffening. i think this is something that is commonly overlooked in cage fabricating. imo, without the gussets joining the cage to the body in various spots the cage can become a bunch of steel just rattling around inside the body of the car in a collision.

third, i would only put a cage in a street car if it is raced regularily (every weekend). it isn't the metal hitting your head i see as the problem, but your head hitting the metal... the cage will move a lot less than your head will in a crash.

driveahonda

I have an uninformed question..

If we are not able to drive a stiffer car compared to a stock version of the car faster then why do we make these performance modifications and then see good results? I honestly do not understand.

With a cage and bars in place the car is more predictable and more precise while handling, at least I feel it is.

Ekasey

And where's your quantitative data to back this statement?

Here's a prime example in my years of motorsports I have seen multiple instances where a driver has thought the car was slower then before the mod. Here's the example. Driver A drives a racecar without traction control and runs a 1:00 lap time. Jump out of the car and comments what a good lap blah blah that was. Traction control was installed on the car, driver comes in and comments what a piece of ****, the car is horriblle now blah blah etc. he improved by 3 seconds running a 0:57 lap time. This is a generic example that I have seen applied in real life.

It's not that the stiffness will or wont make the car faster it may increase the potential but it is unlikely the average joe would be able to use it.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by driveahonda &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have an uninformed question..

If we are not able to drive a stiffer car compared to a stock version of the car faster then why do we make these performance modifications and then see good results? I honestly do not understand.

With a cage and bars in place the car is more predictable and more precise while handling, at least I feel it is.</TD></TR></TABLE>

DESTROYER

Good call on this Casey (Kasey sp?). I have built many a cage and have experienced all of the same things, but driver safety is key. It is up to the builder to make use of the given design requirements to take those and use them to the extent to also add rigidity to the monocoque structure.

By adding the cage, you are effectively adding a space frame structure inside of the uni-body. In several cases it has been recommended to attach the cage to the body in as many points as possible, I would assume to prevent shearing of body panels under impact.

All in all, the rules for EVERY SINGLE CLASS I have built a cage for (SCCA, NASA, FIA) all state that the cage is STRICTLY for safety ONLY.

Mr.E.G.

ok. i see what you guys are saying but lets get real here. maybe most people cant take advantage of a chassis that is set up right, but thats no different than saying that the average driver cant handle a 1000 hp drag car. no ****.

also, i want to add that i drive a miata. i have driven miatas with x braces and other chasis stiffening devices and there is a huuuuuug difference. i am an amatuer but i can definitely tell a difference. does it make a diference in my lap times? maybe or mybe not. but driving a stiff miata is certainly better than driving a stock miata in my opinion.

let us also consider that whether or not a mod improves lap time doesnt ncessarily invalidate the mod. for example. i have a really short shifter on my miata. does it truely enable me to shift in less time? maybe, or maybe not. but it improves the fel of th drive quite a bit. i never miss a shift now and shifting has become intuitive. does that mod make me faster around a track? well i will say that i dont even think about shifting which puts on less thing on my plate and allows me to focus on every thing else. in short, it imrpoves driving feel and thats not a bad thing. sae thing when i drive the stiffer miatas.

i understand that the average person cant take advantage of a well put together car. but for conversation sake, let's assume that we are talking abut race cars here. i know i muddied the waters by asking the question about roll cages in street cars, but for future reference lets treat the discussion as it relates to the theory o stiffening race car chassis.

another thing worth considering is that suspnsion design i based on the assumption of a stiff chasiss. it hard enough bin an aatuer supnsion tuner when teh chassis is totally stiff and you can predict the suspension movements. but when the chassis is flimsy it taks a level of suspnsion tuning that i am not capable of.

i had a lot more to say but my goodamn computer crashed and i hd to rtype all of this on someone elses crappy computer. sorry for the typos. thi keyboard is fucked. ill say more later.,

for the record. lets assume that we are talking about race cars and stiffening their chasis. but please ad thoughts on safety theory as well. thanks guys.

Ekasey

Ok problem found /thread

J/k J/k couldn;t help myself more to be added later gtg ready for track support for the dp cars at infineon

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr.E.G. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ok. i see what you guys are saying but lets get real here. maybe most people cant take advantage of a chassis that is set up right, but thats no different than saying that the average driver cant handle a 1000 hp drag car. no ****.

also, i want to add that i drive a miata.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Lousy Beans

Great Thread... In for sum learnin'

Niles

There isn't too much to the basic design of cars and cages. If you are in an accident (on track or on the street) bad enough to crush the car to the point where you are crushed you have bigger problems. The bigger problem is that the deceleration involved likely caused your internal organs (especially your brain) to slam against the nearest hard object (your bones). This can leave you a very well preserved corpse with scrambled innards.
The cage protects you from getting crushed in a roll over or severe side impact, and in conjunction with the body, crush boxes, and even crushable seat mounts, attenuates impact energy by either absorbing it by bending, or re-directing it around the driver to something that can bend. Tubing sizes and layout rules are determined by people who are alot more knowledgeable than most any people you or I would know. The decisions in the rulebook regarding safety are based on alot of empirical data and careful study. There are alot of really stupid racing rules out there, I don't think there are many stupid safety rules.

On the topic of street cages. If you're wearing a helmet when you drive, great, go for it. But nobody does that. The 'hard plastic pieces' in the interior aren't anywhere near as hard as steel when your head is flying towards it and impacts at 40g's (btw around 50g's is where severe and lethal damage can occur, taken from an article on WRC safety cages in RACECAR). You may get bruised and hurt, but the plastic will break, which absorbs energy and slows your head down progressively, which reduces the g-loading on your brain. It doens't feel like it when you bump your head at 1g getting out of a car, but the forces and energy involved are much greater and uncontrolable in an accident. (you'll also notice that most every automaker tries to make all the pieces around yoru head with a very gentle radius, and without too much support behind the part, so that when your head hits it, you're still ok enough to buy another car. Whereas if your head hits any metal, your head will break. This is actually a good thing for alot of people on honda tech, as I often worry about sharing the road with people who take shortcuts with safety. If anyone from HMT is reading, make sure not to forget the rollcage bar that goes directly in front of your face. j/k.

Roll cage padding is great for avoiding bumping your head when getting in and out of the car, but it really doens't do much in an accident. If you don't believe me, put the best SFI padding on a bar, and now club yourself with it as hard as you can. In an accident your head will hit harder than that. It's why you cant' pad the bar and then not wear a helmet.

The fundamentals of cage design, or car design aren't tough. Getting the first 70% right is easy. The reason good cage makers and good cars cost what they do is that past a certain point, getting a few more percent takes alot more knowledge and gets alot more expensive.

As far as using your cage to stiffen your car: provide triangulated load paths from front to rear suspension. Done. The finer points are much more complicated as they relate to packaging and different options for different load paths. These finer points are what companies like Pro-drive charge the big bucks for.
You can find books on the basics, that's always a good place to start. but in most cases the people who have spent thier lives learning how best to do these things won't give up the finer points too quickly because it's how they make a living, and when it comes to car there is NO SINGLE CORRECT ANSWER. the system is just way to complicated. It's like there's no book on how to design the perfect suspension, because if there was some formula, or some computer powerful enough to figure it out, everyone would have a perfect ride/handling/performance balance, and all f1 teams would do is plug the rules into a computer and wait for a printout. It's complicated enough that the best way is to make a safe bet, and go from there.

Hope that helps a little. I know there's people that say they have to cage thier car to be safe because they think some soccer mom will hit them or whatever, but I'm old enough that I just don't care about idiot responses like that anymore.

bigluelok

In for later

Mr.E.G.

good info. only thing i see a problem with is that you misqouted my "hitting your head on interior trim" comparison.

i'll explain it again in case i didnt say it as well as i should have.

if you cut a piece of car frame apart and smacked someone in the head with it, they would be just as fucked as if you hit them with a piece of roll cage tubing.

people say that having a cage in your car is unsafe because you can smack your head on it and it will hurt you. i am merely suggesting that smacking your head on your cars frame will hurt just the same.

the whole idea is that if you run it close enough to the chassis, it should still be far enough away from your head that you're ok.

again, i stress that hitting your head on the metal of the car is just as bad. obviously your restraint system is designed in such a way that your head shouldnt find its way to the frame of your car.

you seem to be comparing hitting someone with the cars interior trim vs. hitting them with them with a roll cage bar. thats not what i suggested at all. im talking about car metal vs. roll cage metal. hitting either one sucks, therefore the roll cage metal that is only 1 inch closer to your head than teh metal that is allready there is NO MORE dangerous than your car already is.

of course if you have bars running all over the damn place and in such a way that you will likely smack into them, you are obviously at a risk for increased danger. but if the parts of the cage that you will likely smack into simply span metal that you would likely smack into any way, whats the difference? or if the bars span metal that you will likely NOT smack into, whats the difference?

also, i dont care what anybody says, if you get t boned and you have nascar bars you will be in better shape than if you dont regardless of whether its on the track or the street. obviously they are impractical for street cars but that doesnt mean that they wouldnt work.

personally, i think a basic roll bar is an improvement for just about any car. it keeps the roof from caving in on your head, and there is little chance that you should hit it if your belted in properly.

Mr.E.G.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ekasey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ok problem found /thread

J/k J/k couldn;t help myself more to be added later gtg ready for track support for the dp cars at infineon

</TD></TR></TABLE>

hardy har smart guy.

i'm sorry i dont drive a honda civic, a true sports car.

Ekasey

I'm far above the puney civic i drive a legendary type RRRRRRR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr.E.G. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

hardy har smart guy.

i'm sorry i dont drive a honda civic, a true sports car. </TD></TR></TABLE>

DESTROYER

The whole chassis stiffening thing is to eliminate the 5th spring, being the chassis, while the other 4 are the springs under your wheel arches. By eliminating that 5th spring you can accurately dial in your ride.

Who really cares if the average driver won't make use of that added rigidity, because i'm going to build them all as if they were going into a grand am cup challenge lol.

Mr.E.G.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DESTROYER &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The whole chassis stiffening thing is to eliminate the 5th spring, being the chassis, while the other 4 are the springs under your wheel arches. By eliminating that 5th spring you can accurately dial in your ride.

Who really cares if the average driver won't make use of that added rigidity, because i'm going to build them all as if they were going into a grand am cup challenge lol.</TD></TR></TABLE>

well said.

Niles

There shouldn't be any bare metal by your head in a stock car. The idea is that by covering things with the plastic the deceleration of your head is reduced, and hopefully it doens't make contact with the metal. If it does, hopefully by hitting the plastic first it reduces the damage done by the underlying metal.
It's your car and it really sounds like you want to justify putting in a cage. Just do it. Report back when you have a wreck, that's the only way we'll know for sure. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm being realistic.

DESTROYER

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There shouldn't be any bare metal by your head in a stock car. The idea is that by covering things with the plastic the deceleration of your head is reduced, and hopefully it doens't make contact with the metal. If it does, hopefully by hitting the plastic first it reduces the damage done by the underlying metal.
It's your car and it really sounds like you want to justify putting in a cage. Just do it. Report back when you have a wreck, that's the only way we'll know for sure. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm being realistic.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ekasey

You forget about the 6th spring the tire, and all the rubber bushirs and evrything else.

Grand Am Cages are built simply and effectively to completely stiffen the entire car to reduce suspension deflectione tc. would turn a 2600lb racecar into a 3000lb pile of crap.

There's a point which most cages surpass where you hit diminishing returns
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DESTROYER &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The whole chassis stiffening thing is to eliminate the 5th spring, being the chassis, while the other 4 are the springs under your wheel arches. By eliminating that 5th spring you can accurately dial in your ride.

Who really cares if the average driver won't make use of that added rigidity, because i'm going to build them all as if they were going into a grand am cup challenge lol.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sims

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ekasey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
There's a point which most cages surpass where you hit diminishing returns
</TD></TR></TABLE>


I'm shocked. Someone finally agrees with me. I couldn't have said it better!

xci_ed6

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DESTROYER &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">By adding the cage, you are effectively adding a space frame structure inside of the uni-body. In several cases it has been recommended to attach the cage to the body in as many points as possible, I would assume to prevent shearing of body panels under impact. </TD></TR></TABLE>

who cares if the body rips away, as long as the seat stays in the middle? Really. The cage is to protect the driver, not the chassis, so as long as the driver stays in the middle of all the tubes they are safe (barring excessive g-force). Keep everything in front of the firewall and behind the rear strut towers for crush space, and the door bars as far from the driver as you can. Mount the seat to the cage if possible, and put the pads wherever you like. Some locations will be better than others for chassis rigidity, but I really do not see how their location has anything to do with safety.

Mr.E.G.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There shouldn't be any bare metal by your head in a stock car. The idea is that by covering things with the plastic the deceleration of your head is reduced, and hopefully it doens't make contact with the metal. If it does, hopefully by hitting the plastic first it reduces the damage done by the underlying metal.
It's your car and it really sounds like you want to justify putting in a cage. Just do it. Report back when you have a wreck, that's the only way we'll know for sure. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm being realistic.</TD></TR></TABLE>

niles i feel you are a smart guy who knows what he's talking about mostly. im not trying to justify putting a cage in the car, it just seems like you're running in circles. i dont think you intend to sound that way, and i think this is coming down to semantics.

let's get less wordy for a second and establish a couple of things.

1. hitting your head on bare car frame metal is just as bad as hitting your head on roll cage metal. agree or disagree?

2. if someone took a piece of roll cage tubing and wrapped it in roll cage padding and swung it at your head like a baseball bat the padding woudnt be enough to protect you? agree or disagree?

3. car interior plastic is no better (and possibly worse) at softening the blow. therefore if you wrapped roll cage tuning in car interior plastic and smacked someone in the head, they are just as fucked as if they were struck with roll cage tubing wrapped in padding.

wellllllll, hitting your head on car metal is just as bad as hitting it on roll cage metal, and the plastic wont save you from the roll cage metal, then how in the hell is hitting car frame metal with plastic better? lol

again, and i mean no offense to you here, but just as you say that i am dead set on putting a cage in my car i get the impression that you are dead set on idea that its unsafe.

again, i merely propose that the cage is no more dangerous than not having a cage if it is a basic cage (i.e. no unnecessary pieces that pose an unusual hazard) and it is no closer from your vitals than the cars metal that will screw you up just the same as the cage.

if the entire basis of the "roll cages are unsafe in street cars" theory is "you can hit your head on it" but the roll cage is far enough away from your vitals that you are no more likely to strike it than you are to strike the cars metal frame then how is it more dangerous other than the fact that the distance to the bone crushing metal is now 1 inch closer which, like i said in the very beginning, is no different than saying a crx is more dangerous than an integra because the crx's bone crushing metal structure is 1 inch closer to your head than the integras.

i think you know more about this than i do. but i dont think you;ve said anything thusfar that detracts from what i just said. if its an issue of something being lost in translation please feel free to correct me, but if i understtod you correctly, i dont that what you are saying adds up. im totally willing to learn here and if i'm wrong thats swell. i dont want to die as a result of my denial. lol.

seriously, no offense.




Modified by Mr.E.G. at 6:41 PM 8/27/2007

Mr.E.G.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ekasey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Grand Am Cages are built simply and effectively to completely stiffen the entire car to reduce suspension deflectione tc. would turn a 2600lb racecar into a 3000lb pile of crap.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

can you repeat that line. i'm not following you there. sorry and thanks.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ekasey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

There's a point which most cages surpass where you hit diminishing returns
</TD></TR></TABLE>

so i dont need a 400 point cage?

Dubmekanik

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr.E.G. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

niles i feel you are a smart guy who knows what he's talking about mostly. im not trying to justify putting a cage in the car, it just seems like you're running in circles. i dont think you intend to sound that way, and i think this is coming down to semantics.

let's get less wordy for a second and establish a couple of things.

1. hitting your head on bare car frame metal is just as bad as hitting your head on roll cage metal. agree or disagree?

2. if someone took a piece of roll cage tubing and wrapped it in roll cage padding and swung it at your head like a baseball bat the padding woudnt be enough to protect you? agree or disagree?

3. car interior plastic is no better (and possibly worse) at softening the blow. therefore if you wrapped roll cage tuning in car interior plastic and smacked someone in the head, they are just as fucked as if they were struck with roll cage tubing wrapped in padding.

wellllllll, hitting your head on car metal is just as bad as hitting it on roll cage metal, and the plastic wont save you from the roll cage metal, then how in the hell is hitting car frame metal with plastic better? lol

again, and i mean no offense to you here, but just as you say that i am dead set on putting a cage in my car i get the impression that you are dead set on idea that its unsafe.

again, i merely propose that the cage is no more dangerous than not having a cage if it is a basic cage (i.e. no unnecessary pieces that pose an unusual hazard) and it is no closer from your vitals than the cars metal that will screw you up just the same as the cage.

if the entire basis of the "roll cages are unsafe in street cars" theory is "you can hit your head on it" but the roll cage is far enough away from your vitals that you are no more likely to strike it than you are to strike the cars metal frame then how is it more dangerous other than the fact that the distance to the bone crushing metal is now 1 inch closer which, like i said in the very beginning, is no different than saying a crx is more dangerous than an integra because the crx's bone crushing metal structure is 1 inch closer to your head than the integras.

i think you know more about this than i do. but i dont think you;ve said anything thusfar that detracts from what i just said. if its an issue of something being lost in translation please feel free to correct me, but if i understtod you correctly, i dont that what you are saying adds up. im totally willing to learn here and if i'm wrong thats swell. i dont want to die as a result of my denial. lol.

seriously, no offense.


Modified by Mr.E.G. at 6:41 PM 8/27/2007</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think this would be a great idea for an episode of mythbusters! I have to agree with MR.E.G. I take apart cars all day long, and the thickness of the abs plastic at the a and b pillars is like 1/8 inch in most cases if even that. In most cars it's just there for appearance. I would actually think roll cage padding would do a better job of softening the blow. No I do not think it is going to be that much safer, but in an A/B comparison 1 inch thick high density closed cell foam would be better than 1/8th inch abs. Maybe they should dip WRC rollcages in abs instead of using that unsightly foam padding...

Ekasey

Grand Am Cages are built simply and effectively. To completely stiffen the entire car to reduce suspension deflection etc. would turn a 2600lb racecar into a 3000lb pile of crap, with absolutely no performance returns that would outweigh the huge amount of weight added


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr.E.G. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

can you repeat that line. i'm not following you there. sorry and thanks.

so i dont need a 400 point cage? </TD></TR></TABLE>