Brandon Clifton

Tony- I'll have to keep that in mind. Last year when I called Earl M. Jorgensen they didn't carry the tubing. Must be a new thing for them (which would be good since we have an open account there)
According to DWS 17.1 a "G6 (or 6G)" weld is a weld performed on two end-to-end pipes at a 45 degree angle without moving the pipes. Basically you have to be able to weld horizontal, vertical, and overhead all on the same joint. I'm assuming G6 on your car since you don't exactly flip the chassis around while you're welding so your hands are over top of the joint (typical horizontal weld). I'll host the spec someplace when I get to work on Monday in case anyone wants to read up on it.

Nate- corner of Silver Spring and 45 near the Arbys/Wendys/Dunkin Donuts/Taco Bell.
I would have said "coping machine" but I didn't know so many people were familiar with the term "cope."

Goullish- we always teased our baja team about measuring with string. Those guys had a lot more fun though- and they had 2 cars for $8K where we had 1 car for $30K
Since FSAE is only welding on .049 most of the time it shouldn't stay hot too long. Not to mention the frame should be jigged so it's not like you can just pick it up and move it around. Either way gloves are a personal preference. I'm just telling everyone what works best when we teach how to weld.

backpurge- sunscreen brother, sunscreen

Engloid

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Brandon Clifton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">According to DWS 17.1 a "G6 (or 6G)" weld is a weld performed on two end-to-end pipes at a 45 degree angle without moving the pipes.</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's 6G.

What's DWS?

ChainbreakR

Welded pieces can also be "F" for fillet..... If the pipes are not grooved, then it is obviously a butt joint...making it a fillet weld.

Engloid

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ChainbreakR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Welded pieces can also be "F" for fillet..... If the pipes are not grooved, then it is obviously a butt joint...making it a fillet weld.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, and no. "F" does signify Fillet. However, not having a groove does not make it a fillet weld. A fillet weld is when welding pieces of metal that are NOT on the same plane. In other words, if you have two pieces of metal that form a "T" shape. That gives you two sides you can weld a fillet weld in.

A groove weld can have several shapes of bevel, such as a J-bevel, no land, large land, single bevel, and more. There's many types of groove welds. Some groove welds can even be welds where you will end up putting a fillet weld on top of it.

Typically, the size of a fillet weld should be the size of the thinnest part being welded. So if you're welding 1/4" steel to 1/8" steel, your fillet weld size will typically be at least 1/8". This does not mean a bead that is 1/8" across though...it means that you should lay down 1/8" of metal on each piece, if measured along each plane. There are also other criteria that have to be measured, such as whether the weld is too concave or too convex...but the average hobby welder doesn't need to bother with all that. Just useless info for most.

BUJonathan

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Brandon Clifton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Tony- I'll have to keep that in mind. Last year when I called Earl M. Jorgensen they didn't carry the tubing. Must be a new thing for them (which would be good since we have an open account there)
According to DWS 17.1 a "G6 (or 6G)" weld is a weld performed on two end-to-end pipes at a 45 degree angle without moving the pipes. Basically you have to be able to weld horizontal, vertical, and overhead all on the same joint. I'm assuming G6 on your car since you don't exactly flip the chassis around while you're welding so your hands are over top of the joint (typical horizontal weld). I'll host the spec someplace when I get to work on Monday in case anyone wants to read up on it.

Nate- corner of Silver Spring and 45 near the Arbys/Wendys/Dunkin Donuts/Taco Bell.
I would have said "coping machine" but I didn't know so many people were familiar with the term "cope."

Goullish- we always teased our baja team about measuring with string. Those guys had a lot more fun though- and they had 2 cars for $8K where we had 1 car for $30K
Since FSAE is only welding on .049 most of the time it shouldn't stay hot too long. Not to mention the frame should be jigged so it's not like you can just pick it up and move it around. Either way gloves are a personal preference. I'm just telling everyone what works best when we teach how to weld.

backpurge- sunscreen brother, sunscreen</TD></TR></TABLE>

Jigged, yes, but its really not practical to jig it 100% of the time. Once you tack it, you're gonna want to flip the piece around and weld the other side of the tube.

ChainbreakR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Engloid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Yes, and no. "F" does signify Fillet. However, not having a groove does not make it a fillet weld. A fillet weld is when welding pieces of metal that are NOT on the same plane. In other words, if you have two pieces of metal that form a "T" shape. That gives you two sides you can weld a fillet weld in.

A groove weld can have several shapes of bevel, such as a J-bevel, no land, large land, single bevel, and more. There's many types of groove welds. Some groove welds can even be welds where you will end up putting a fillet weld on top of it.

Typically, the size of a fillet weld should be the size of the thinnest part being welded. So if you're welding 1/4" steel to 1/8" steel, your fillet weld size will typically be at least 1/8". This does not mean a bead that is 1/8" across though...it means that you should lay down 1/8" of metal on each piece, if measured along each plane. There are also other criteria that have to be measured, such as whether the weld is too concave or too convex...but the average hobby welder doesn't need to bother with all that. Just useless info for most.
</TD></TR></TABLE> I agree. Although I wasn't necesarilly referring to a butt to butt. The "fillets" listed on NCCER ciriculum is a T joint, edge joint, corner joint, and lap joint. Of course, 1 being flat position, 2 being horizontal, 3 being vertical, and 4 being overhead.

There are sooo many grooveweld combo's as you said...usually identified by your weld symbol...which most people on this site will never deal with

Engloid

What's NCCER?

madhatter07

Looks good guys, I'm on the clemson FSAE team and were not too much farther ahead of you guys. We met the florida team at the redbull station in daytona. Good luck guys

@irborne

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by backpurge &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That's just plain stupid. Can you say cancer? I always wear some sort of hand protection when UV rays are involved.

Modified by backpurge at 7:19 PM 2/17/2005</TD></TR></TABLE> i don't care how cool it is to not wear glove while welding....cancer will catch up to you. sorry to say you will have remove your hands. lol

BUJonathan

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by madhatter07 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Looks good guys, I'm on the clemson FSAE team and were not too much farther ahead of you guys. We met the florida team at the redbull station in daytona. Good luck guys</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah its always neat to meet other FSAE Teams. I went an SAE Conference in San Antonio, and got to meet with some other FSAE Team Captains. Always interesting to hear how other teams run their programs, and even talk design a little bit -- good chance to learn from each other. Even some of the "big dog" teams were able to learn a thing or two.

I've always been impressed with clemson's car. Your previous car was pretty cool, and you guys have a great amount of resources nearby with the new ICAR, BMW, Michelin R&D and a ton of NASCAR teams.

Engloid

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by @irborne &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> i don't care how cool it is to not wear glove while welding....cancer will catch up to you. sorry to say you will have remove your hands. lol</TD></TR></TABLE>

But they do it on American Chopper, and they don't have cancer.

Interesting, the things people THINK they learn from watching tv. Everybody's a welder now, they don't need gloves, sleeves, or a welding hood when they tack stuff.

joeseph

idear

madhatter07

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BUJonathan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah its always neat to meet other FSAE Teams.
I've always been impressed with clemson's car. Your previous car was pretty cool, and you guys have a great amount of resources nearby with the new ICAR, BMW, Michelin R&D and a ton of NASCAR teams.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah we have a lot of fun meeting other teams too, this year we'll be running a carbon fiber monocoque chasis so it should be cool. There are definitely a lot of teams around the area but i dont think anyone with a big appreciation for fsae will like nascar too much lol. We are going to an FSAE thing at UNC tomorrow, are any of you guys planning on going?

ChainbreakR

A college ciricullum(for welding schools) recognized by API, AWS, ASME, etc. You can take these module tests by NCCER that will wave certain industry tests. If you pass all of your tests, they will wave 3 years of a union apprenticeship...pretty cool.

Engloid

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ChainbreakR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A college ciricullum(for welding schools) recognized by API, AWS, ASME, etc. You can take these module tests by NCCER that will wave certain industry tests. If you pass all of your tests, they will wave 3 years of a union apprenticeship...pretty cool. </TD></TR></TABLE>
No BPE?

That's part of the reason I worked nonunion when I came out of school. I went straight in as a journeyman at the age of 18. Now, the union won't require any apprenticeship, since I have enough experience.

BTW, AWS, API, and ASME don't even require any training....only that you pass the test. Many schools drag out their program to milk your wallet. I went to a 6 month class after I graduated high school. I completed it in 5 months, and in December of the year I graduated high school, I hired in as a journeyman pipe welder on my first welding job. Been fine ever since, and never regretted not going to a lengthy program. However, in most areas, that's the only option.

ChainbreakR

BPE? Right now, I am in a 2.5 year degree program. It is a metal technologies degree with a concentration in welding...many many lab classes, blueprint/template classes, theory classes, and a few machining classes. The beauty of the program is that it is ranked in the top 5 best programs, and it is government funded; only costs you 30 dollars a semester. But according to my teacher, he said that is just what you get from your tests. If you can show your skill level right out of school, they can and will move you up.

I feel totally confident certifying in just about every pipe weld with every process at this point...

Engloid

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ChainbreakR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BPE? </TD></TR></TABLE>
BioProcessing Equipment. It is used primarily in food processing and pharmaceutical industries.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ChainbreakR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Right now, I am in a 2.5 year degree program. It is a metal technologies degree with a concentration in welding...many many lab classes, blueprint/template classes, theory classes, and a few machining classes. The beauty of the program is that it is ranked in the top 5 best programs, and it is government funded; only costs you 30 dollars a semester. But according to my teacher, he said that is just what you get from your tests. If you can show your skill level right out of school, they can and will move you up. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Sounds like a nice deal. What type of job do you plan on when you get out?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ChainbreakR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I feel totally confident certifying in just about every pipe weld with every process at this point...</TD></TR></TABLE>
I mean no offense, as confidence is good....but you may be comfortable with everything you have been exposed to, but there's no way that even the entire 2.5yr program can get you ready to weld everything that you may encounter in your career.

If you go into welding, hopefully you'll be able to do stuff like:
exotic alloys (inconel, monel, titanium, hasteloy, nickel alloys, copper alloys, etc)
pipe from .035" wall to inches thick
xray welding work
dye penetrant welding work
submerged arc
spray arc

and there's so much more...just having to do with welding. Then you may learn some pipefitting, rigging, electrical, and more.

You have a long way to go...and school is just a small fraction of it. Although right now it feels like you're learning a lot, it's like a 2yo that's learning so much every day....and those things are the things that we all take for granted as adults. We walk, talk, and move (hopefully) effortlessly, without even thinking about it.

The things you learn now will serve as good preparation, but when you get out of school, IF you find a good job, the learning will be far from over. If you find a job that isn't challenging, consider leaving.

I've had more jobs than I can count on my fingers and toes. The biggest problem I have in finding work is finding work that is a challenge. Most of the time, I go for an interview and find out that they either aren't paying for ****, or they outright tell me that I'm overqualified. I guess the market for a half *** welder is good these days, but if you're pretty good at it, few companies in my area really need you bad enough to pay the right money.

Enjoy the time in school, and if you run into any questions like "Do they really do this in the field, or do they just tell us this in school"....give me a shout.

Brandon Clifton

I couldn't agree more Engloid- we just got a guy who has been welding bikes at TREK for years (if any of you are at a bike shop, take a minute to look at TREK welds- they're mint) and we didn't let him weld on anything but scrap and jaws for the turning centers for the first month he was in our shop. Why? Sure he had welded before, for years, but never on aerospace parts. Every weld we do is at LEAST penetrant inspected, if not xray or magnetic particle inspected. No weld leaves that doesn't check out and look perfect. Not to mention- most people on here would give their left n&t to have a manifold made of stainless or intercooler pipes made from aluminum. That's the cheapest crap we use. Stainless is at about $.90 per lb, alum is at $1.36. Hastelloy X is hanging in there at about $7.00 a pound and Haynes 188 (cobalt alloy) is $2000.00 a sheet. On the rare occasion we make some parts from Waspaloy which was $104 per pound the last time I quoted it. Granted these aren't as much as precious metals but one wrong slip-of-the-torch and you can scrap a $10,000 part in a heartbeat.
I've always been a proponent of tech-ed classes, but unfortunately they'll never get the funding to allow students to practice on these super-expensive alloys. ChainbreakR, my only advise for your classes- Learn everything they want to teach you, but let your job teach you what you need to know.
I'll post that spec (AWS D17.1) when I find a place to host it. It's 23Mb (pdf).

ChainbreakR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Brandon Clifton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Learn everything they want to teach you, but let your job teach you what you need to know.</TD></TR></TABLE> I really agree with this statement. I didn't want to come off as cocky, but I think the education I have taken the time to learn is more underminded than it should be. This program is not a joke. I Spend 11 hours a day there, everyday. My teacher I work with spent 12 years in the field and is one of the best OVERALL welders I have ever seen. I have been exposed to everything you listed(except the exotic metals). Like you said, though, there is alot more.

He works with me and 2 other students 1 on 1 10 hours a week outside of normal class time. We take pipe welding classeswhere you basically "certify" in 2g 5g and 6g...tig, mig and stick. All penetrant and bend tested. We have even done some x ray work. I think most people think of a peanut learning experience, but you know yourself that bend tests, penetrant testing, and x ray quality welds are the real deal. He throws us REAL WORLD blue prints, situations, "tricks" when welding certain things that are x-ray/penetrant tested, etc etc.

The reason our school is ranked so high is becaus we have placed in the top 10 at Skills/vica nationals for the past 4 years. A fellow student at skills USA placed 2nd in '04. He picked up a job at a ship yard, and they started him at 31.50. Not bad for someone fresh out of school.

I have also been working for a 20+ year journeyman pipe welder who works at the national labs here for a little over a year.

Again, I am not trying to come off like a know it all. I don't want to sound condescending to you guys who have been out in the field for a very long time, but I think some educations are overlooked. You get out what you put in, and I have put in everything I can. With experience comes knowledge, but at the same time, that doesn't mean that what I need to know to start off as a decently successful welder cannot be learned in what I am doing now. And again, like Clifton said...there is going to be something that you are "green" to at EVERY job you go to. There is no way around that...but I think saying that you are "green" to what you will deal with/experience is a little bit unfair. I really do know that I am going to learn a ton more when I REALLY work in the industry. I'm not calling you guys one, but I'm tired of old timers I can outweld and who know NO weld theory and minimal blueprint reading tell me I know "nothing" because I have not had much time in the field.

PS when I said certifications, I was speaking of the general and more popular certs, such as 6010/7018 6g carbon steel pipe, etc etc.


Modified by ChainbreakR at 12:48 AM 2/23/2005


Modified by ChainbreakR at 12:51 AM 2/23/2005

Engloid

Although many will say that bike frames will have to take a lot of stress, it is nothing like what many other weldments have to hold. Also, from what I've noticed, many bike frames are clearly welded in a way that's best for appearance to the untrained eye, not so much for strength. I have seen many that are pulsed to the extent that it looks like they completely shut off the arc between pulses....just for appearance sake. This guy came from a job where apearance was #1, and strength didn't have to be. Having him weld other things for a while is completely acceptable in my opinion.
Yes. I've been there also. I had a molecular turbo housing once that was $30+k. I had to weld a port into the side of it. The engineers had taken it apart and needed a port welded into the side of it. If it warped more than .001" from welding, it was nothing more than scrap.
12 years for an instructor is not a large amount of experience. I have 19 years welding experience and I'm still in my early 30's....and instructors in my area usually have about 30+ years of experience. However, they usually suck at welding, and just knew the right person to get the job.
Yes, and as mentioned, training programs never get the funding to afford much more than stainless and carbon steel...if any at all.
But you have to keep in mind that there is no amount of school that will get you even 30% of the knowledge that you will get in your career. In school, you make these welds on a bench, on a machine you're used to, and all conditions are usually great. In the field, you may be hanging off your safety harness, holding an I beam with one hand, leg wrapped around it, your other arem stretched out as far as it will go, and have to make that same weld. You may be lying on your back with arm stretched out. You may have to lay on your stomach, reaching down into a hole and weld. When you get out in the field, welding will probably not even account for 1/4 of your time...and the school will likely not prepare you for any of that.
Really, it's no big feat. You should be able to do the same. In shipyards and large industrial construction jobs, they don't care how old you are, how you look, or how much experience you have. They give you a test and if you pass, you have the job. That's why so many people will start out in these types of jobs. It helps to build a resume with experience that other types of employers want.
ANd I don't mean to make it sound like you're not learning anything or that I'm speaking badly of your school. Although the things you learn will be great, most employers in this field aren't going to care what school you went to...only if you can pass the test. Sure, it may make a difference when you're on the job, but the average person hiring welders knows little about them or what they do..much less what experience is good.
Yes, but unless you get a really crappy first job, you will have to ask for help with nearly everything you do, for some time. The odds of being able to just weld will be very slim, throughout your entire career. In most jobs, you will have to make the parts you weld. You may wind up doing machining work, electrical, assembly, and much more that they won't teach you in school.
Fair, it is. Because, it's exactly the case. When you start your first job, you will not know 1/10th of what you will need to know in your career. Here's a simple example: You are building a pressure vessel that's 12ft diameter rolled steel. Of course it's egg shaped. You want to cut out all the nozzle holes prior to welding an end cap on it. How do you lay out these holes on your shell that isn't round, and ensure they are in the right location when you fit the end to it and make it round? Say you start into the job half way and somebody else forgot a nozzle. Both end caps are on, and you don't want to cut holes from the outside and throw sparks all on the inside of a polished shell. How do you lay out the hole on the inside so you can cut it and throw sparks outside? Lets say you get your rolled shell and it's way out of round. You have to fit the end cap (or "head") on it. What's the best way to fit it on there? Keep in mind that the circumference of these items is rarely the same. These are the types of things that they can't teach you in school. I doubt they can afford about $10k in materials just to teach you this one thing.
Although these guys likely know tons more than you about welding, there's so much more than just making a weld. If you worked side by side with them, you'd see the difference. They'd work circles around you. The boss on most jobs would rather have an old guy making 10 welds a day than you making 1...even if your one looks better. These old guys will be more familiar with fitting methods, blueprints, where to find parts, what each type of valve is. And this is not to mention that the fact that you can read a blueprint doesn't make you a fitter. It's like me saying that since I can read, I am a great novel writer. Although you need to read prints to fit, the fitting takes experience and the reading just takes knowledge you can gain in school.
These are really all you need, leaving school. They will get your foot in the door at places you can gain the experience you need. At this point, certifications are only something to put on a resume.

See, I once worked at a plant that wanted me to train and certify welders for them. They were to be certified to AWS D1.1 (Structural Code). They wanted them trained and tested in one week. It was a really unrealistic goal they had, based on their ignorance. Yes, they paid the price in damaged products down the road, but they wouldn't listen to me and my advice. Anyway, based on the codes, I could grind the plates and hold them while the welder tacked them. I could then have them weld the front side, I grind a goove in the back, flip it over, let them run a bead down the back side. If the guided bend test failed, I could speak to them for a few minutes about the type of defect that had caused it, and they could immediately retest. Hell, my mom could get lucky once in a weeks time of welding one test plate after another. Therefore, the better companies usually won't put a lot of weight on certifications from school, or even just one previous employer. They want to see that you were certified at several places...to help ensure that you didn't just get lucky or work at a place that gave half assed tests.

I know that you like your school, and that's great...but keep in mind that the guys you're disagreeing with have been to school and worked in the field. We've been where you are. We've been on both sides of the fence, and you have been on one. After a couple years, maybe less, in the field, you will agree with us. You won't regret the time in school, but you will agree that, although you learned all you could, you still learned very little of what you will need to know.

BUJonathan

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ChainbreakR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BPE? Right now, I am in a 2.5 year degree program. It is a metal technologies degree with a concentration in welding...many many lab classes, blueprint/template classes, theory classes, and a few machining classes. The beauty of the program is that it is ranked in the top 5 best programs, and it is government funded; only costs you 30 dollars a semester. But according to my teacher, he said that is just what you get from your tests. If you can show your skill level right out of school, they can and will move you up.

I feel totally confident certifying in just about every pipe weld with every process at this point...</TD></TR></TABLE>

No offense intended here... I'm not a welding student (I'm an engineering student), but school isn't about thinking you've learned everything there is to learn, and now you're ready to start working. School is about learning how to learn. In other words, getting the foundations of a subject, learning how to apply that to real life situations, and being able to continue learning.

Engloid

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BUJonathan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No offense intended here... I'm not a welding student (I'm an engineering student), but school isn't about thinking you've learned everything there is to learn, and now you're ready to start working. School is about learning how to learn. In other words, getting the foundations of a subject, learning how to apply that to real life situations, and being able to continue learning.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's a great point. I once was in a class in college, I think it was Calc 2 or something. A student asked why we had to learn so many things in college when we will likely never encounter much of it in the future. The teacher gave a similar explanation. He said that a college degree typically was evidence of the ABILITY to learn things, moreso than evidence of things learned.

That said, I think that the things studied in a vocational course are going to be more directly related to things actually done in the person's future...but it is very far from encompassing all that will be done.

Nate

thanks for the updated pics richard! looks like it is almost done


-nate

BUJonathan

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Nate &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thanks for the updated pics richard! looks like it is almost done


-nate</TD></TR></TABLE>

Except for that one piece of frame that Richard forgot to cut....

Heinz57

I hate you Dell...I hate you! Always nay-saying my work..everything I create!..why don't you create something?! huh? I'm gonna cut you good.