Auto dim helmets, are they fast enough??
10-19-2008, 04:14 PM
#26
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You guys keep talking about uv protection as if that's the only light that can hurt your eyes. That is simply not true! Any light can damage your eyes if it is too bright.
I don't trust auto darkening helmets.
Welding with a helmet that doesn't darken absolutely instantaneously, every time, will destroy your night vision. Is that a chance worth taking? Not in my opinion..
I don't trust auto darkening helmets.
Welding with a helmet that doesn't darken absolutely instantaneously, every time, will destroy your night vision. Is that a chance worth taking? Not in my opinion..
10-19-2008, 10:21 PM
#28
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Re: (E-Rok)
The thing with your eyes, they can take a certain amount of abuse. Like all other body cells, they can fix themselves, albeit far less than say skin can. The fraction of a microsecond your retna is exposed is within the limits of what it can handle for momentary exposure. Similar how eardrums can take a moment of say 130dB, but can fail with constant 110dB exposure. Also, the initial microseconds of the arc aren't the most intense.
The only problem is welding with crap in the way, or on stuff that makes an inconsistent ark. W/o any delay to undarken, you can get ever-so-slight flashburn when it undarkens for a few hundreths of a second. Its best to have a fixed shade at that point.
My 3M speedglas helmet was relatively inexpensive, as I would never trsut a Harbor-Freight auto-dark helmet. Mine cuts the light level in half when I turn it on, and obviously full-tilt when welding. I've never had flashburn, although due to my own ignorance, slight white spots for a min or two when I flash myself.
The only problem is welding with crap in the way, or on stuff that makes an inconsistent ark. W/o any delay to undarken, you can get ever-so-slight flashburn when it undarkens for a few hundreths of a second. Its best to have a fixed shade at that point.
My 3M speedglas helmet was relatively inexpensive, as I would never trsut a Harbor-Freight auto-dark helmet. Mine cuts the light level in half when I turn it on, and obviously full-tilt when welding. I've never had flashburn, although due to my own ignorance, slight white spots for a min or two when I flash myself.
10-20-2008, 06:44 AM
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Re: (HiProfile)
I also run a speedglass 9002x(its even custom painted 
) I started welding with a fixed jackson, and still use mine on occasion. If I was doing line production welding I would be using a fixed lens. But as far as flexability goes, being able to see what your doing before you strike an arc is a very nice thing when you are in a position where you do not have enough room to flip a helmet down.
Also, I have a adflow system for when I use core wire in enclosed areas. Can't really hook one of those up to a jackson helmet...
Edit: heres my lid
) I started welding with a fixed jackson, and still use mine on occasion. If I was doing line production welding I would be using a fixed lens. But as far as flexability goes, being able to see what your doing before you strike an arc is a very nice thing when you are in a position where you do not have enough room to flip a helmet down.Also, I have a adflow system for when I use core wire in enclosed areas. Can't really hook one of those up to a jackson helmet...
Edit: heres my lid
10-20-2008, 07:08 AM
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Re: Auto dim helmets, are they fast enough?? (Engloid)
Engloid,
We all have tremendous respect for your skills as a welder. Neither you nor I am an optometrist. I work R&D for an optical surgery instrument company however, and we have an optometrist and opthalmic surgeon on staff. When these devices are made by any company with ISO or FDA certifications they are regularly tested. You say the autodark lenses aren't tested, but the fact is that the $25 crappy lenses aren't all tested either. They do pull samples off the line regularly to verify the material and coatings are operating to spec. The autodark is more likely to have every lens tested for operability before it leaves the factory. Having 20/20 vision isn't relevant, that's not what gets damaged. Excessive UV will basically sunburn your retina, your vision will slowly get darker and cloudier as the cells responsible for generating a signal for the optic nerves get calloused or get burned. Seeing an arc through a UV shielded lens is no different than when you wake up in the morning and your eyes haven't adjusted to the light.
My eyes are hypersenetive to bright light, I wear sunglasses even on cloudy days, and I've never-ever had a headache or vision damage from welding with an autodark. Seeing stars is actually a good thing, it means the rods in your retina are functioning, and not damaged.
Bottom line, if you're welding for money do whatever you are more productive doing. Both types of helmets will be safe if they are bought from reputable companies. I would trust my jackson autodark over any piece of chineese **** from harbor freight. Judging by the way the chineese have no problem leaving melanine in baby food and candy, lead in paint on childrens toys, and making drugs that are dangerous and possibly poisonous I bet they aren't testing harbor freight lenses.
All they have to do to make a lense UV shielding is put a coating on it, or use a type of glass that is opaque to UV. It's really not difficult. The UV resistance doesn't 'wear off' or anything. Before a product can be launched by any reputable company it's tested through many cycles just to check anyway. There are tons of guys who think it's cool to be old school and that's fine. When DRO's and CNC and AUTOCAD came out many people were reluctant until they were left in the dust by people who chose to adopt new technology that helped them work faster.
We all have tremendous respect for your skills as a welder. Neither you nor I am an optometrist. I work R&D for an optical surgery instrument company however, and we have an optometrist and opthalmic surgeon on staff. When these devices are made by any company with ISO or FDA certifications they are regularly tested. You say the autodark lenses aren't tested, but the fact is that the $25 crappy lenses aren't all tested either. They do pull samples off the line regularly to verify the material and coatings are operating to spec. The autodark is more likely to have every lens tested for operability before it leaves the factory. Having 20/20 vision isn't relevant, that's not what gets damaged. Excessive UV will basically sunburn your retina, your vision will slowly get darker and cloudier as the cells responsible for generating a signal for the optic nerves get calloused or get burned. Seeing an arc through a UV shielded lens is no different than when you wake up in the morning and your eyes haven't adjusted to the light.
My eyes are hypersenetive to bright light, I wear sunglasses even on cloudy days, and I've never-ever had a headache or vision damage from welding with an autodark. Seeing stars is actually a good thing, it means the rods in your retina are functioning, and not damaged.
Bottom line, if you're welding for money do whatever you are more productive doing. Both types of helmets will be safe if they are bought from reputable companies. I would trust my jackson autodark over any piece of chineese **** from harbor freight. Judging by the way the chineese have no problem leaving melanine in baby food and candy, lead in paint on childrens toys, and making drugs that are dangerous and possibly poisonous I bet they aren't testing harbor freight lenses.
All they have to do to make a lense UV shielding is put a coating on it, or use a type of glass that is opaque to UV. It's really not difficult. The UV resistance doesn't 'wear off' or anything. Before a product can be launched by any reputable company it's tested through many cycles just to check anyway. There are tons of guys who think it's cool to be old school and that's fine. When DRO's and CNC and AUTOCAD came out many people were reluctant until they were left in the dust by people who chose to adopt new technology that helped them work faster.
10-20-2008, 07:21 AM
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Re: Auto dim helmets, are they fast enough?? (Engloid)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Engloid »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Are 100% of these lenses tested at the factory before shipping?
Do they actually do what they say they will?
Are they really 100% UV protection, even when not darkened?
Are they tested periodically during their lifespan?
Have they been on the market long enough to know the long term effects?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The answers to your questions are actually:
No, neither are fixed shade lenses, the autodark is more likely to be tested for operability though
Yes, although any product can have a defect, including your fixed lens.
Yes, by way of their manufacturing process and materials, they are also IR shielding to help prevent inflamation of the cornea from UV and IR exposure
Yes, they undergo durability testing because they are a safety device and the FDA will periodically pull stuff from the shelves if they consider it to be a risk they can and will shut the production down. Especially if there are any complaints or injury claims filed.
Yes, Are you kidding me? The technology has been around for a while. All autodark lenese are is a normal UV and IR blocking lens with an LCD shutter. The fixed lenses are the same thing but with a coating or tinting to them because they don't have the shutter. All the shutter does is act like a pair of sunglasses to dim the visible light that the lens allows through. The lens still protects against UV and IR when the shutter is off.
Do your research.
Are 100% of these lenses tested at the factory before shipping?
Do they actually do what they say they will?
Are they really 100% UV protection, even when not darkened?
Are they tested periodically during their lifespan?
Have they been on the market long enough to know the long term effects?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The answers to your questions are actually:
No, neither are fixed shade lenses, the autodark is more likely to be tested for operability though
Yes, although any product can have a defect, including your fixed lens.
Yes, by way of their manufacturing process and materials, they are also IR shielding to help prevent inflamation of the cornea from UV and IR exposure
Yes, they undergo durability testing because they are a safety device and the FDA will periodically pull stuff from the shelves if they consider it to be a risk they can and will shut the production down. Especially if there are any complaints or injury claims filed.
Yes, Are you kidding me? The technology has been around for a while. All autodark lenese are is a normal UV and IR blocking lens with an LCD shutter. The fixed lenses are the same thing but with a coating or tinting to them because they don't have the shutter. All the shutter does is act like a pair of sunglasses to dim the visible light that the lens allows through. The lens still protects against UV and IR when the shutter is off.
Do your research.
10-20-2008, 03:56 PM
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Re: Auto dim helmets, are they fast enough?? (Niles)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When these devices are made by any company with ISO or FDA certifications they are regularly tested. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Regular might just be one of every thousand made.
BTW, ISO doesn't do certifications, they do registrations. It's commonly said that a company is certified through them, but it's not correct.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You say the autodark lenses aren't tested, but the fact is that the $25 crappy lenses aren't all tested either.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I would SUSPECT that the cheap ones are tested much less often, but we have no information to validate that suspicion.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would trust my jackson autodark over any piece of chineese **** from harbor freight.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I would too, but for all you know, you have the one in 5k that is defective.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No, neither are fixed shade lenses, the autodark is more likely to be tested for operability though</TD></TR></TABLE>
How do you know this?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yes, they undergo durability testing because they are a safety device and the FDA will periodically pull stuff from the shelves if they consider it to be a risk they can and will shut the production down. Especially if there are any complaints or injury claims filed.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Aren't there a lot of products that go without periodic checks from the FDA? Tylenol in the 80's comes to mind, as does the lead paint and poisonous baby food you mentioned.
Regular might just be one of every thousand made.
BTW, ISO doesn't do certifications, they do registrations. It's commonly said that a company is certified through them, but it's not correct.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You say the autodark lenses aren't tested, but the fact is that the $25 crappy lenses aren't all tested either.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I would SUSPECT that the cheap ones are tested much less often, but we have no information to validate that suspicion.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would trust my jackson autodark over any piece of chineese **** from harbor freight.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I would too, but for all you know, you have the one in 5k that is defective.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No, neither are fixed shade lenses, the autodark is more likely to be tested for operability though</TD></TR></TABLE>
How do you know this?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yes, they undergo durability testing because they are a safety device and the FDA will periodically pull stuff from the shelves if they consider it to be a risk they can and will shut the production down. Especially if there are any complaints or injury claims filed.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Aren't there a lot of products that go without periodic checks from the FDA? Tylenol in the 80's comes to mind, as does the lead paint and poisonous baby food you mentioned.
10-20-2008, 04:54 PM
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Re: Auto dim helmets, are they fast enough?? (Niles)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Seeing an arc through a UV shielded lens is no different than when you wake up in the morning and your eyes haven't adjusted to the light.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Your eyes are capable of adjusting to the morning light. Not to a welding arc. Are you Really saying that frequencies other than uv cannot hurt your eyes, regardless of intensity? How about a laser? Or a really bright led? Or any type of hid light?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Your eyes are capable of adjusting to the morning light. Not to a welding arc. Are you Really saying that frequencies other than uv cannot hurt your eyes, regardless of intensity? How about a laser? Or a really bright led? Or any type of hid light?
10-20-2008, 05:37 PM
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Re: Auto dim helmets, are they fast enough?? (Engloid)
In order to BE ISO registered the company NEEDS to have multiple levels of quality control in place. ISO, BSI, CE and other organizations will audit you periodically to make sure you're dotting the I's and crossing the T's. We go through this twice a year at work. Everything from receipt of materials through every step of the process out the door. You know that as well as I do.
Periodic audits don't mean there can't be one defective part every now and again, but they make it more likely that the quality and regulatory proceedures are in place to prevent the company from being sued into the ground.
Having a powered device in an autodark lens I would wager that they are turned on and at least the display works before they go out the door. This versus a fixed shade helmet where if there's a bad batch of coating or glass you won't know until your corneas are inflamed.
Listen we can argue the specifics and details of random meaningless **** all day, or we can agree that autodark helmets are safe and have been in use for years. Any reputable company will have testing procedures in place to make sure the end user is safe. I would trust any fixed shade or autodark helmet from miller, jackson, speedglass etc. And I would trust NOTHING from china.
Periodic audits don't mean there can't be one defective part every now and again, but they make it more likely that the quality and regulatory proceedures are in place to prevent the company from being sued into the ground.
Having a powered device in an autodark lens I would wager that they are turned on and at least the display works before they go out the door. This versus a fixed shade helmet where if there's a bad batch of coating or glass you won't know until your corneas are inflamed.
Listen we can argue the specifics and details of random meaningless **** all day, or we can agree that autodark helmets are safe and have been in use for years. Any reputable company will have testing procedures in place to make sure the end user is safe. I would trust any fixed shade or autodark helmet from miller, jackson, speedglass etc. And I would trust NOTHING from china.
10-20-2008, 05:49 PM
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Re: Auto dim helmets, are they fast enough?? (rorik)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rorik »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Your eyes are capable of adjusting to the morning light. Not to a welding arc. Are you Really saying that frequencies other than uv cannot hurt your eyes, regardless of intensity? How about a laser? Or a really bright led? Or any type of hid light? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Learn to read. The glass shields IR and UV. Those are the harmful spectrums on either side of the visible. Even when they are off they are usually equivalent to shade 4 or 5. A welding arc seen through a lens will be only visible light. If you stare at a high enough intensity arc long enough to generate any vision damage, you deserve to go blind for your stupidity. You will get a headache before you do any lasting damage. It will literally take all day for even slight damage.
Lasers will damage the pigment layer beneath the fovea with extended exposure. If you are dumb enough to shine a laser in your eye you again will probably be offed by darwin.
If you want to stare at HID's go ahead, free country.
You are not an eye doctor, I'm getting my information from people who are.
Your eyes are capable of adjusting to the morning light. Not to a welding arc. Are you Really saying that frequencies other than uv cannot hurt your eyes, regardless of intensity? How about a laser? Or a really bright led? Or any type of hid light? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Learn to read. The glass shields IR and UV. Those are the harmful spectrums on either side of the visible. Even when they are off they are usually equivalent to shade 4 or 5. A welding arc seen through a lens will be only visible light. If you stare at a high enough intensity arc long enough to generate any vision damage, you deserve to go blind for your stupidity. You will get a headache before you do any lasting damage. It will literally take all day for even slight damage.
Lasers will damage the pigment layer beneath the fovea with extended exposure. If you are dumb enough to shine a laser in your eye you again will probably be offed by darwin.
If you want to stare at HID's go ahead, free country.
You are not an eye doctor, I'm getting my information from people who are.
10-20-2008, 05:51 PM
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Re: Auto dim helmets, are they fast enough?? (Niles)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">In order to BE ISO registered the company NEEDS to have multiple levels of quality control in place. ISO, BSI, CE and other organizations will audit you periodically to make sure you're dotting the I's and crossing the T's. </TD></TR></TABLE>
ISO doesn't require audits by anybody else. However, if your Quality Manual says you're oerating under any certain code, specs, or registrations, you have to follow through with it.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We go through this twice a year at work. Everything from receipt of materials through every step of the process out the door. You know that as well as I do.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yip...the dog and pony show. They're usually no big deal, if you're doing your job right.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Having a powered device in an autodark lens I would wager that they are turned on and at least the display works before they go out the door. This versus a fixed shade helmet where if there's a bad batch of coating or glass you won't know until your corneas are inflamed.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's possible, but only speculation. For all we know, the fixed lenses are under much more testing and scrutiny than the others.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Listen we can argue the specifics and details of random meaningless **** all day, or we can agree that autodark helmets are safe and have been in use for years. Any reputable company will have testing procedures in place to make sure the end user is safe. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Reputable companies sold asbestos too.
ISO doesn't require audits by anybody else. However, if your Quality Manual says you're oerating under any certain code, specs, or registrations, you have to follow through with it.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We go through this twice a year at work. Everything from receipt of materials through every step of the process out the door. You know that as well as I do.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yip...the dog and pony show. They're usually no big deal, if you're doing your job right.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Having a powered device in an autodark lens I would wager that they are turned on and at least the display works before they go out the door. This versus a fixed shade helmet where if there's a bad batch of coating or glass you won't know until your corneas are inflamed.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's possible, but only speculation. For all we know, the fixed lenses are under much more testing and scrutiny than the others.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Listen we can argue the specifics and details of random meaningless **** all day, or we can agree that autodark helmets are safe and have been in use for years. Any reputable company will have testing procedures in place to make sure the end user is safe. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Reputable companies sold asbestos too.
10-20-2008, 05:55 PM
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Re: Auto dim helmets, are they fast enough?? (Niles)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You are not an eye doctor, I'm getting my information from people who are.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I can't argue that, but I don't think they know anything about the quality control or testing of these items.
You are not an eye doctor, I'm getting my information from people who are.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I can't argue that, but I don't think they know anything about the quality control or testing of these items.
10-20-2008, 06:01 PM
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Re: Auto dim helmets, are they fast enough?? (Engloid)
Seeing as how we manufacture lenses, surgery instrumentation, and associated parts for OEM's our quality control guys actually do.
Edit: Good to have you back engloid, now post some more rediculously awesome welds.
Edit: Good to have you back engloid, now post some more rediculously awesome welds.
10-20-2008, 06:04 PM
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now this is a fantastic informative thread with mature responses... i love it....
I wonder if theres a way we can measure this stuff.. .ive been using a harbor freight auto dark.... i close my eyes before... and it honestly works very well but iduno if its damaging my eyes... i got my eyes checked not to long ago cause i wear contacts and ive been consistent for the last 4 years in which i have also been welding... but i also practice a lot of safety... and i dont weld as a profession just as a hobby so my exposure to it isnt as great as a full time fabricator...
but we need to run some sort of test where we can collect measurements... any ideaS?
I wonder if theres a way we can measure this stuff.. .ive been using a harbor freight auto dark.... i close my eyes before... and it honestly works very well but iduno if its damaging my eyes... i got my eyes checked not to long ago cause i wear contacts and ive been consistent for the last 4 years in which i have also been welding... but i also practice a lot of safety... and i dont weld as a profession just as a hobby so my exposure to it isnt as great as a full time fabricator...
but we need to run some sort of test where we can collect measurements... any ideaS?
10-21-2008, 04:33 AM
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Re: (LordAphotic)
An easy way to do it would be to use UV sensitive film or a UV sensitive ink to test for UV light. It's the cheapest way I can think of. If you made a mark on the inside of some safety glasses with a UV pen, and started welding, the UV would cause it to glow if it was getting through the helmet. The film would be developed from black to white by the UV light if you put it on the inside of the helmet.
The film would be developed from black to white by the UV light if you put it on the inside of the helmet.
10-21-2008, 04:43 PM
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Re: Auto dim helmets, are they fast enough?? (Niles)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Learn to read. The glass shields IR and UV. Those are the harmful spectrums on either side of the visible. Even when they are off they are usually equivalent to shade 4 or 5. A welding arc seen through a lens will be only visible light. If you stare at a high enough intensity arc long enough to generate any vision damage, you deserve to go blind for your stupidity. You will get a headache before you do any lasting damage. It will literally take all day for even slight damage.
Lasers will damage the pigment layer beneath the fovea with extended exposure. If you are dumb enough to shine a laser in your eye you again will probably be offed by darwin.
If you want to stare at HID's go ahead, free country.
You are not an eye doctor, I'm getting my information from people who are.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Telling me I need to learn how to read? Watch yourself.
Prove what you're saying. Or since you can't, cite your sources on light other than uv or ir not being able to damage your eyes. Since you apparently know people who are "eye doctors". Like doctors never have incorrect info. Or how about that momentary shade 4 or 5 being dark enough to block Enough uv or ir. Since we're talking about the lag time of the lens here. Because when it goes all the way dark, it blocks more uv and ir, doesn't it.
Whatever. I really don't care anymore. I'll stick with a fixed lens and be sure I'm not sabotaging my vision.
Learn to read. The glass shields IR and UV. Those are the harmful spectrums on either side of the visible. Even when they are off they are usually equivalent to shade 4 or 5. A welding arc seen through a lens will be only visible light. If you stare at a high enough intensity arc long enough to generate any vision damage, you deserve to go blind for your stupidity. You will get a headache before you do any lasting damage. It will literally take all day for even slight damage.
Lasers will damage the pigment layer beneath the fovea with extended exposure. If you are dumb enough to shine a laser in your eye you again will probably be offed by darwin.
If you want to stare at HID's go ahead, free country.
You are not an eye doctor, I'm getting my information from people who are.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Telling me I need to learn how to read? Watch yourself.
Prove what you're saying. Or since you can't, cite your sources on light other than uv or ir not being able to damage your eyes. Since you apparently know people who are "eye doctors". Like doctors never have incorrect info. Or how about that momentary shade 4 or 5 being dark enough to block Enough uv or ir. Since we're talking about the lag time of the lens here. Because when it goes all the way dark, it blocks more uv and ir, doesn't it.
Whatever. I really don't care anymore. I'll stick with a fixed lens and be sure I'm not sabotaging my vision.
10-21-2008, 05:06 PM
#42
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Re: Auto dim helmets, are they fast enough?? (Niles)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Seeing as how we manufacture lenses, surgery instrumentation, and associated parts for OEM's our quality control guys actually do. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I see your point, but I think you missed mine. What I'm saying is that your company's people don't know what Miller (or the other companies) do to test their lenses.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Edit: Good to have you back engloid, now post some more rediculously awesome welds.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thanks. I need to take more pictures, but I don't weld all that often anymore. In fact, I've made two welds in the last month, and they were nothing to brag about.
</TD></TR></TABLE>I see your point, but I think you missed mine. What I'm saying is that your company's people don't know what Miller (or the other companies) do to test their lenses.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Edit: Good to have you back engloid, now post some more rediculously awesome welds.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thanks. I need to take more pictures, but I don't weld all that often anymore. In fact, I've made two welds in the last month, and they were nothing to brag about.
10-21-2008, 06:10 PM
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Re: Auto dim helmets, are they fast enough?? (Engloid)
My point was there are a lot of companies out there who actually sell the same lenses in their own packages. All they do is assemble the parts. We are one of the companies making lenses for such companies.
Obviously we don't make everything for everyone, and not everything in the world is tested, but when it comes to safety equipment, people like to be pretty thorough about their testing to protect their reputation. Could you imagine how upset people would be if a miller branded helmet led to vision damage? It could really hurt the company!
It's the same with car manufacturers. They don't make every single part. A honda clutch could be made by exedy, the hoses could be made by yokohama etc.
rorik you don't seem to understand. The type of glass and coatings used don't allow UV light to get through. They block or scatter 99+% of the UV. That means that less gets through the lens than your eye would be exposed to just looking out a window.
The shading only affects the visible light your eye can detect. Different types of material block different wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation. Drywall doesn't let visible light through so you can't see through it, but if you put a gamma ray source on one side and a detector on the other you'll sure as hell pick up the gamma rays through the drywall. If you put an UV source on one side of a shade 0 uv blocking lens and a detector on the other you won't get any significant amount of uv through. I trust practicing licensed physicians over H-T e-thugs, thanks.
If you google materials like bausch and lomb's optivex you'll get hits explaining how it works. If you took physics 101 you should have learned about waves and their transmittance/absorbance through different materials.
Obviously we don't make everything for everyone, and not everything in the world is tested, but when it comes to safety equipment, people like to be pretty thorough about their testing to protect their reputation. Could you imagine how upset people would be if a miller branded helmet led to vision damage? It could really hurt the company!
It's the same with car manufacturers. They don't make every single part. A honda clutch could be made by exedy, the hoses could be made by yokohama etc.
rorik you don't seem to understand. The type of glass and coatings used don't allow UV light to get through. They block or scatter 99+% of the UV. That means that less gets through the lens than your eye would be exposed to just looking out a window.
The shading only affects the visible light your eye can detect. Different types of material block different wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation. Drywall doesn't let visible light through so you can't see through it, but if you put a gamma ray source on one side and a detector on the other you'll sure as hell pick up the gamma rays through the drywall. If you put an UV source on one side of a shade 0 uv blocking lens and a detector on the other you won't get any significant amount of uv through. I trust practicing licensed physicians over H-T e-thugs, thanks.
If you google materials like bausch and lomb's optivex you'll get hits explaining how it works. If you took physics 101 you should have learned about waves and their transmittance/absorbance through different materials.
10-21-2008, 07:04 PM
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Re: Auto dim helmets, are they fast enough?? (Niles)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My point was there are a lot of companies out there who actually sell the same lenses in their own packages. All they do is assemble the parts. We are one of the companies making lenses for such companies.
Obviously we don't make everything for everyone, and not everything in the world is tested, but when it comes to safety equipment, people like to be pretty thorough about their testing to protect their reputation. Could you imagine how upset people would be if a miller branded helmet led to vision damage? It could really hurt the company!
It's the same with car manufacturers. They don't make every single part. A honda clutch could be made by exedy, the hoses could be made by yokohama etc.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I agree....but
How many people DIED because of defective Firestone tires? Defects slip through, even when it's an item your life depends on....much less something ONLY your vision depends on.
Obviously we don't make everything for everyone, and not everything in the world is tested, but when it comes to safety equipment, people like to be pretty thorough about their testing to protect their reputation. Could you imagine how upset people would be if a miller branded helmet led to vision damage? It could really hurt the company!
It's the same with car manufacturers. They don't make every single part. A honda clutch could be made by exedy, the hoses could be made by yokohama etc.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I agree....but
How many people DIED because of defective Firestone tires? Defects slip through, even when it's an item your life depends on....much less something ONLY your vision depends on.
10-22-2008, 03:18 AM
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Re: Auto dim helmets, are they fast enough?? (Engloid)
I'm going to look up workers comp claims for vision damage from welding, because I'm honestly curious now.
And remember, the UV an IR protection of an autodark lens doesn't depend on it even being on. The darkening is just a convenience.
And remember, the UV an IR protection of an autodark lens doesn't depend on it even being on. The darkening is just a convenience.
10-22-2008, 05:01 PM
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Re: Auto dim helmets, are they fast enough?? (Niles)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
rorik you don't seem to understand. The type of glass and coatings used don't allow UV light to get through. They block or scatter 99+% of the UV. That means that less gets through the lens than your eye would be exposed to just looking out a window.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well, all I know is the helmet I used to have, before I put it into my shop floor, damaged my night vision to the point where I would avoid driving at night. I still remember the exact moment when I realized what was happening, I was outside at night, same ambient lighting (streetlights), and suddenly realized that I couldn't really see what I was doing. Slow realization.."what have I been doing that could have affected my vision..oh, ****." I can't remember what kind of helmet it was, but it was over $300, and was supposed to be a "good" helmet. So forgive my skepticism about these things being 100% safe. I had it set to the highest sensitivity, and shade 11. My night vision has basically healed, thank goodness, but still.
rorik you don't seem to understand. The type of glass and coatings used don't allow UV light to get through. They block or scatter 99+% of the UV. That means that less gets through the lens than your eye would be exposed to just looking out a window.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well, all I know is the helmet I used to have, before I put it into my shop floor, damaged my night vision to the point where I would avoid driving at night. I still remember the exact moment when I realized what was happening, I was outside at night, same ambient lighting (streetlights), and suddenly realized that I couldn't really see what I was doing. Slow realization.."what have I been doing that could have affected my vision..oh, ****." I can't remember what kind of helmet it was, but it was over $300, and was supposed to be a "good" helmet. So forgive my skepticism about these things being 100% safe. I had it set to the highest sensitivity, and shade 11. My night vision has basically healed, thank goodness, but still.
10-22-2008, 05:31 PM
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Re: Auto dim helmets, are they fast enough?? (Niles)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm going to look up workers comp claims for vision damage from welding, because I'm honestly curious now. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm sure you'll find some, whether they're legit or not could be an issue though. A shop I used to work at, we had a welder miss work for 5 days straight (2 were weekend), claiming he burned his eyes. He wound up fired.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And remember, the UV an IR protection of an autodark lens doesn't depend on it even being on. The darkening is just a convenience. </TD></TR></TABLE>
That's what I hear, but nobody yet has shown me their faith in it by welding all day without batteries or allowing the lens to darken.
</TD></TR></TABLE>I'm sure you'll find some, whether they're legit or not could be an issue though. A shop I used to work at, we had a welder miss work for 5 days straight (2 were weekend), claiming he burned his eyes. He wound up fired.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Niles »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And remember, the UV an IR protection of an autodark lens doesn't depend on it even being on. The darkening is just a convenience. </TD></TR></TABLE>
That's what I hear, but nobody yet has shown me their faith in it by welding all day without batteries or allowing the lens to darken.
10-23-2008, 05:43 AM
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Re: Auto dim helmets, are they fast enough?? (Engloid)
I was doing some fab a couple weeks ago and didn't even realize my helmet was off. It was all pretty low amperage welds and I leave the shade on 9 all the time anyway, with halogen lights on whatever I'm working on. I have UV markers, but only have UV lights at work, I can probably take a digital camera and take a few pictures to show the lens working, even when it's off, one day on my lunch break.
10-23-2008, 11:15 AM
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Re: Auto dim helmets, are they fast enough?? (Agtronic)
Thanks. I tried a few, and just loved the feel of the helmet. Just felt like quality. I kinda dig the flames, and so do my kids. I figured i was going to spend quite a few bucks on this, but i wanted the best protection.
10-23-2008, 11:21 AM
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Re: Auto dim helmets, are they fast enough?? (Engloid)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Engloid »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Are 100% of these lenses tested at the factory before shipping?Yes, its says right in the packaging that they are tested before shipping, and has an inspector number.
Do they actually do what they say they will?Yes, it does do exactly what it says it will do. so far at least.
Are they really 100% UV protection, even when not darkened?that i dont know.
Are they tested periodically during their lifespan?i dont know of anyone having their helmet tested periodically. ahah.
Have they been on the market long enough to know the long term effects?with all the technology out there, im sure they have some tests for that sort of thing..
The answer to all these is no. The DESIGN may meet ANSI whatever spec, but that doesn't mean that ANSI is the top organization for knowing visual health. You don't know that YOUR lens was ever tested to that particular specification, or that it is safe for long term use, as designated by whatever spec the design meets. Either way, has anybody here even read that spec to know what it says?
I've used the cheap Jackson fixed shade lens for many years. I also used an auto darkening long enough to "get used to it." Fact is that I don't trust them for long term use. When working with guys that have auto darkening hoods, they often complain that I'm blinding them because I can get in position, hood down, and an arc started before they can. They're so "used to" their crutch that they can't operate as quickly.That makes absolutely no sense. Your saying they are slower then you because they have autodim. Or your just saying your a super ninja welder god?
As for the UV protection, I've not yet found anybody that would pull the battery out of their lens and weld all day. I take that as not really having the faith in the hood.
My fixed shade Jackson is great. I have about $45 in it, including lens. If it gets broken or stolen, It's no big deal. I've been welding professionally for 21 years, and I have 20/20 vision. How many of you with auto darkening hoods will be able to say that?I will check in 20 years from now and let ya know, super welding ninja guy.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I have no doubt you are a super welding ninja. I have read your posts in the past. Its meant to be funny... Just wanted to cut that off so we dont battle about that. I just disagree with some of the things you said.
Are 100% of these lenses tested at the factory before shipping?Yes, its says right in the packaging that they are tested before shipping, and has an inspector number.
Do they actually do what they say they will?Yes, it does do exactly what it says it will do. so far at least.
Are they really 100% UV protection, even when not darkened?that i dont know.
Are they tested periodically during their lifespan?i dont know of anyone having their helmet tested periodically. ahah.
Have they been on the market long enough to know the long term effects?with all the technology out there, im sure they have some tests for that sort of thing..
The answer to all these is no. The DESIGN may meet ANSI whatever spec, but that doesn't mean that ANSI is the top organization for knowing visual health. You don't know that YOUR lens was ever tested to that particular specification, or that it is safe for long term use, as designated by whatever spec the design meets. Either way, has anybody here even read that spec to know what it says?
I've used the cheap Jackson fixed shade lens for many years. I also used an auto darkening long enough to "get used to it." Fact is that I don't trust them for long term use. When working with guys that have auto darkening hoods, they often complain that I'm blinding them because I can get in position, hood down, and an arc started before they can. They're so "used to" their crutch that they can't operate as quickly.That makes absolutely no sense. Your saying they are slower then you because they have autodim. Or your just saying your a super ninja welder god?
As for the UV protection, I've not yet found anybody that would pull the battery out of their lens and weld all day. I take that as not really having the faith in the hood.
My fixed shade Jackson is great. I have about $45 in it, including lens. If it gets broken or stolen, It's no big deal. I've been welding professionally for 21 years, and I have 20/20 vision. How many of you with auto darkening hoods will be able to say that?I will check in 20 years from now and let ya know, super welding ninja guy.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I have no doubt you are a super welding ninja. I have read your posts in the past. Its meant to be funny... Just wanted to cut that off so we dont battle about that. I just disagree with some of the things you said.