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I already posted this in the prelude section but I'm reposting it here to get more visibility as it is not a prelude specific problem. Hell, probably not even honda-specific.
I had the clutch fully replaced a year ago, anyways so about a week ago my clutch pedal became very hard (and I forgot to mention there was a popping feel and audible popping sound heard from interior and followed to clutch housing about an inch before the pedal reached the floor) so I replaced the slave and master cylinder and did a full bleed. After doing this the clutch would not fully disengage. I cannot change gears with the car running, but no issue rowing through them when it's off. I had a little bit of pedal pressure which in turn moved the clutch fork a small amount (from aaprox 75% to 100% of it's outer range of motion), however it wasn't enough to disengage. So I adjusted the rod hoping to get more pedal travel, to no avail. After taking a long hard look at my clutch fork/ slave cylinder "resting position" ie with no clutch pressure applied, it looks like this:
When it should look like this:
Which tells me that my clutch fork isn't providing any pressure to compress the slave. So I decided to pull the slave off and zip tie it out of the way, and found that my fork is pretty much all play, not just side to side for the first 75% of it's normal range of travel, but up and down vertical play roughly 3/4". In the following pictures, that is the extent of play in the fork that I can easily swing back and forth with nothing more than gentle flick of my finger.
Now I'm obviously under the impression that the fork needs substantial clamping force to be able to not only compress the slave, but to release the pressure plate, so this massive amount of play could mean my throwout bearing is shot? Or worse? I mean, the fork jiggles up and down and wildly side to side with no force at all. Just completely free play.
I have a video I can upload if I can figure out how. Lol. But my second question, I have never dropped the tranny before in or out of the car. The clutch was done by pros who now claim it's out of warranty. So f them. I have done timing belts, bolt in h22 swap in my 4th gen prelude with help from a buddy.. I'm willing to learn obviously and do it myself with my helms but I'd like to get a handle on what the honda-tech diagnosis is and the difficulty level of first timer tranny drop and replace. Fact is, I'd trust most of u over what alot of shops have to say. Thanks for any help you can provide!
Just from the sounds of the first half of the post, it isn't bled properly. Adding the second half, it is hard to say but I have some guesses. Pull off the rubber boot that goes over the fork and see what you can see. Inspect both sides of the fork and see if the retention spring broke or if something else happened. Use a mirror and good flashlight to inspect in there. Maybe even pull the starter if need be for a different perspective. Report back with your findings even if it doesn't seem like much; every little bit helps.
Altight, I got in there. Got starter out but it didnt give me a view of the actual fork so I took off the boot and started feeling around. First thing I noticed was the set spring that runs most the fork was off on the topside. It went back in with absolutely no effort. Didn't change anything.
This is the big part. As I felt first the underside of the fork, I could feel the stud the fork pivots on readily. The stud threads felt like they seemed a little more extended than I've seen in pics, but I wouldn't know for sure. As I ran my hand across the front side of the fork (the side closer to the engine), I could feel some torn metal and could feel that same stud poking through the fork. To be sure, as I moved the fork back and forth by hand, I kept my fingers on that area, and could definitely tell that the fork wasn't pivoting on the stud- the stud was mostly going right through the fork.
As I think about it now, perhaps that would explain why I was getting a very partial pedal pressure and disengagement. The stud hadn't broken completely through the fork, so it worked a little, however what would normally be the clutch disengaging is now just the stud breaking through the fork and not actually getting a full pivot. Or so it would sound in my head, but it could explain the symptoms.
So if I were to assume this is my only problem, I'd also imagine the fork cannot be pulled out and a new one pushed in without removing the tranny?
Also, I found large amounts of clutch disc fiber all over the place in there.
It's been a long time since I have tried to remove the clutch fork through the window (always just have the trans dropped) but IIRC you can't remove it through there. Even if you could do it though, getting the fingers back into the TOB could prove to be rather tricky. None of that really matters though because IMO you need to inspect everything namely the clutch. You need to verify the pivot ball is threaded in all the way and such. Inspect everything.
Yeah that's was my final conclusion. Gonna have to drop the tranny. Put in an exedy kit while I'm there.
Although I wanted to ask.. how far should the ball stud be screwed in? Is there a factoey spec? I see it has threads so it appears to be adjustable. I ask because I think the clutch fork was routinely overexended thus eventually causing the stud to mostly break through the fork which in turn also possibly means the throwout bearing was never disengaging from the pressure plate fingers so the clutch has been getting eaten up. There was alot of fibers in there. Hope the flywheel survived.
When I put in the new clutch I will be very diligent in making sure that the fork has a little freeplay (maybe a half inch?) so I am absolutely sure the tb is not riding the pressure plate at all. That's how you do it, right?
I'm pretty sure that's what caused all this. My ball stud feels longer than most of the pics I've seen. So it must have been adjusted too far out by the shop last time
Unfortunately I am not a H22 / Prelude guy, but if it follows Hondas other transmission there isn't any adjustment. The ball should be screwed all the way in and torqued to spec. I almost wonder if they couldn't get the clutch to adjust properly so they did that. Most likely the clutch is burnt from not disengaging fully. Somewhat like riding the clutch. You are lucky that you weren't grinding gears honestly. The fork should essentially be preloaded so to speak; tension needs to be on the rod or it will pop out of the seal.
You are definitely on the right track. Keep it up!
I had taken it to Aamco, one because it burnt out right in front of their shop, two because I was working 60 hour weeks and didn't have the time nor inclination to do it myself, and three because Aamco has corporate backing so I figured if they messed up it would be on their dime to fix. Well, that didn't happen. 1 year limited warranties on clutch jobs is horseshit. Half the time problems don't even surface til later, like this.
Anyhow. I will check the FSM and such for torque spec on the ball stud. That should tell me whether it is adjustable, though u bring up a great point. They told me they were having trouble with the bleeding of the hydraulics despite new master and slave cylinders when they did the job, suppose they could have basically untorqued and extended the stud outward to give the fork more leverage as a quick way to hand me my car back quickly knowing it wouldn't last but hey jobs done now. The tranny is probably most like any other Honda, so I'm sure you aren't steering me the wrong direction anywhere here lol.
And yeah, the tranny felt smooth as butter and still does, crazy right.. not notchy, grinding, nothing. After what I assume to still be the original with over 250k on it. When I did the h22 swap it was block only since I was poor at the time lol.
I know what u mean by tension being preloaded on fork by the spring and tb but u mean tension in the rod keeps it from popping out of the seal as in the slave cylinder right?
So I ordered an Exedy OEM kit. Figure I'll stick with the tb that comes with the kit. Also ordered and brand new clutch fork OEM Honda, $35. And fork spring, ball stud, rear main seal (on h22 it is behind flywheel) and intermediate shaft tranny seal. That should cover everything.
So if we assume my clutch wasn't ever fully disengaging and was being eaten up, is there a good chance it ruined the brand new flywheel that was installed at the time? I'm praying the flywheel is in good shape.
Thanks for your time man, you've been a great help. I'm sure I'll have more questions once I get to it. Tranny Virgin lol
There should be freeplay on the fork without the slave cylinder attached. With the slave cylinder in place the piston requires the fork / TOB to be up against the pressure plate fingers so it doesn't just pop out of the slave's bore. There is nothing holding the rod in place and the only thing that keeps the seal from leaking is straight alignment and the fork being the correct distance.
Good call on all the parts, namely the Exedy clutch (it's all I run). I am glad to hear you didn't just get the fork like most people would. There is a very high possibility your flywheel is glazed / overheated. If you are unsure then post pictures or just take it to get it resurfaced. Then again, you would be suprised what you can get away with, but it's "not the right way". You can sand the surface to get some texture back so it breaks in the new clutch. They are also pretty cheap from say RockAuto or other places.
You are welcome. I am glad I could be of help. I will continue to check back. Be sure to update your progress.
ohhh ok yeah yeah I gotcha now. I knew the fork has to have counter pressure to keep the slave rod from shooting out of the cylinder but I wasn't entirely sure whether the throwout bearing is supposed to "ride" the pressure plate. So the key there will be making sure the fork has freeplay but not too little to where the throwout bearing is actually pressing in the fingers when the slave is compressed.
I did my research and Exedy is the name that came up most (in a positive way lol). Initially I wanted to run a Stage 1 but there doesn't appear to be any point to that. Simply buying the fork to replace would be a waste of time and money down the road. I'm already taking out the tranny, so of course. But I get what you mean. Most people try to get away with the minimum. Then they wonder why their car breaks down all day.
As a related side note, in my 15 years of cars, I've had exactly 1 real breakdown. My Prelude before this, the radiator blew a 18" crack then 3 months later the head gasket went at 240k. The only other things I've ever had to do across 6 Honda cars has been maintenance + water pump, timing belt, and now 2 clutches. I've never been stranded. If you maintain them and fix them right, they will last forever.
As for the flywheel, I'm gonna do everything I can to save it. Only cuz I spent $292 on it. I'll post pics when I get to it. Though you talk about sanding the flywheel surface? Like with 2000grit right? and that's not to avoid a resurfacing, thats in addition?
The clutch will be here next Tues, and the parts from Honda by the end of this week. So I figure if its alright with my gf and kids, I'll spend all Sat removing the tranny, half Sunday preparing for the clutch, and evenings next Wed/Thur putting it in.
Oh I did have one thing on my mind. So when I get to the part where I have to put the tranny back in, once I do get it slid onto the input shaft, would quickly having my helper put on the tranny mount be the best way to secure it while I support the tranny to prevent it from hanging on the input shaft?
I know I've said it already, but thank you again. I appreciate the willingness to share your knowledge and your time. If I'm prepared enough for this, I'm sure I won't just decide to drop the car on myself instead to avoid a lifetime of marriage, bills and taxes
Yes, basically if your pressure plate is in good condition and TOB is good, the preload distance will essentially set it's self if you will. As long as there isn't any restrictions in the lines or something (rare), when you release the clutch pedal the fingers on the PP will force the fork/TOB back to the proper position. There is only some tension from the slave cylinder acting on the clutch. Nowhere near enough to depress the fingers and in return makes the TOB ride the fingers due to this "preload". It is the nature of the Honda Hydraulic Clutch System. If you had a Cable Clutch, this would be an entirely different conversation.
For the flywheel, it really depends on what it looks like. If it is blued, grooved, cracked, or wavy at all then you should just have it resurfaced. It shouldn't cost more than $40 - $60 to do (at least around me it's that). If it looks good, then the right wrong way to do it is debatable. Some say super coarse, some say 600 grit. I personally do it with 220 - 400 grit sand paper in circular or at 45° crosshatchings. You aren't trying to get it perfect, just braking the surface glazing and a light touch must be used. This surface prep is a MUST for clutch longevity (The surface is prepped naturally from the maching process if you go that route). Clean thoroughly with brake parts cleaner. The same method can be used on the pressure plate surface.
The best way to support the transmission IMO and to keep it from loading the input shaft is to run at least one bolt (two is better) into the top half of the transmission. You already have to line up the dowels anyways to do anything so you may as well throw a bolt in there.
LOL, I hear you brother. Well I am not trying to steer you wrong, but all this is my opinion. Some people may disagree, but in the end it is up to you on whose advice you decide to follow. Unfortunately for you I am the only one responding right now...
Gotcha, that makes perfect sense. So it does ride it but only to create the preload for effective disengagement.
I should have the flywheel out saturday. Hopefully if I have time. I'll post pics when it's out to determine condition. I'm nervous lol. My budget for the project isn't big cuz my gf bought me a new torque wrench for the job. Which is nice cuz she isn't a huge fan of the car. Cuz it takes time from her and the kids
I spent 90 minutes last couple days getting the entire topside of tranny unbolted as well as necessary suspension. So all that's left is the stiffner, clutch cover, pass side tranny mount, whatever part of the rear engine mount that connects to the tranny, and the 5-6 main mount bolts. My plan is to unbolt all but the top bolts, loosen them then have my dad pull them while I support the tranny then he guides the tranny out while I do the grunt work. Lol
I'd ask more specific questions but ur not a prelude guy so u might not know but I'll ask anyways.
1) well this isn't prelude specific, but when I disconnected the two power steering hoses, I lost a **** ton of ps fluid. It's all good but that wasn't a closed system right? Just refill reservoir when reconnect and good to go?
2) I unplugged the vss but the writeups say to actually remove it but it's mounted into the tranny so why would I do that. Also the reverse light switch is the unit that looks like a pen with an in/out switch at the end?
And dude your opinion is more than good enough for me. I'm getting model-specific help from the prelude guys but your more general assistance in the macro view of this job I'm doing is invaluable. Also, I will note that yes, I am stuck with u so what choice do I have anyways. Lol. I'll buy ya a beer when this is done if my clutch disc Doesn't go all wily e coyote after the roadrunner on the bellhousing. You probably live nowhere near sf bay area, so I will send you a check for a beer. Haha. Truth!
1.) On almost every chassis I have dropped only the transmission out, removing any component of the power steering isn't necessary. The only thing that might have to be done is lifting the reservoir out of its slot / holder. These Honda platforms are '88-'91CRX, '88-'91 Civic, '92-'95 Civic, '96-'00 Civic, '90-'93 Integra, '94-01' Integra, '97-'01 CRV, and Del Sols (yeah, I have been around the block a few times). With that being said, the system will be fine.
Top off the reservoir first and then start the car. Turn the steering wheel lock to lock. Refill the reservoir and if needed repeat the process. It would be a good idea to recheck this after a few days of driving just to be sure all is well. (At least that's my method. )
2.) I have 2 theories why they might say to remove it. The first being it may possibly interfere with the removal of the transmission (although unlikely). The second being if it's removed it eliminates the likelihood that it will accidentally get broken during removal or installation. With that being said, I have never once removed a VSS for a Honda transmission removal.
3.) That could be one way to describe the reverse light switch. I will provide a picture below, but I guess I don't understand the platform well enough to know why you would even need to remove it in the first place. Reference my #2 answer for why LOL!
Haha, if I did it for the money I would have been broke a long time ago. I enjoy helping people that are interested in helping themselves. Most people just want to be spoon fed and refuse to do anything on their end to help their situation. Plus, I don't mind helping people who can actually formulate a coherent sentence LOL! I live near Chicago so a little far for that, but you can celebrate after your sucessful clutch change and drink one for me. Your thanks is enough for me man (a lot of people don't).
Yeah you have been around.. I have only stuck with one model, the Prelude. I had a Montero 4x4, yknow the big 3 ton SUV, but it literally fell apart. Literally. The timing assembly fell of the engine and it blew up. That was a waste of $7000. Other than that I had a late '80s Volvo 740 TURBO yes Turbo Volvo lol station wagon in high school. That thing was a beast. It drifted. Ha. And no matter what you hit, there was never more than a broken light.
So yeah, you're def right about the PS hoses. Had I simply removed the VSS intact, I wouldn't have needed to disconnect the hoses at all. I'm pretty sure I contaminated my open container of tranny fluid I had drained when I wasn't thinking and turned the wheels left and right while removing the axles, pushing all the fluid right out of the open hose. Oh well. If that's all I do wrong, I'll consider it a success. Lol. Will follow your advice when I get to the final stage. Hopefully this time, I won't accidentally pour the PS fluid in the brake reservior (note to self: don't play with your kids when adding fluids to the car). Thankfully, I realized it right away so I saved myself. Guy at a shop I called said it happens all the time. Lol. People are stupid. Myself included! Though I don't follow. You've never removed a VSS for tranny drop? PS hardlines that mount to the steering rack go right into the VSS. Otherwise, the tranny wouldn't come out. Maybe its Prelude-specific.
Yep, that would be the reverse switch same as mine. I ended up just unplugging it after one of the plugs came undone for me. Idk why they say to remove it either. The ring around it almost fell into the actual tranny gears! I woulda been pissed.
Anyways, I said all this without even mentioning we did get the tranny out tonight. I'll update with pics tomorrow in the daylight as I have some questions as to how the flywheel looks, seemed fine to me but what the hell do I know Lol. The pressure plate fingers looked bent, and the bolts didn't all feel accurately torqued. Freakin Aamco, man. I'm not done harassing them yet.
The clutch hydraulic damper soft line wound itself around the gear lever as the tranny was coming out and with the weight of the transmission put quite a bit of force on those components until I was able to find what was holding it back. Luckily, it appears no damage was incurred to the clutch hydraulic line or gear lever as the lines looked fine and there was no play in the lever after it was fully removed. So I'm hoping it'll be fine. But it freaked me out cuz it was almost down and halfway out, there was no going back, I'm trying to keep the weight off the input shaft and find what's holding it back while my dad is just yelling to hurry up while he clings to the starter hole for dear life. Good times. He usually sits in a chair drinking wine and yelling at me to not forget to torque the bolts down while we talk life. I guess he's earned that right. I remember when that Volvo blew a slave cylinder after an A's game as a little kid. I saw all the fluid pouring out and thought that car would never run again. Sure enough, a day later, he fixed it. I thought the old man was magic. I guess he still is
I found that indeed the ball stud had completely broken through the fork, and the throwout bearing was missing a "clip" on one side. Didn't find any metal chunks in there though, but a ton of nice sparkly metal shavings, which led my daughter to remark my car looked bedazzled. Lol. Guess the clutch ate up the chunks of the fork and TB and turned it to dust.
I'll take a bunch of pics tomorrow of everything and get them up here for you to take a look at if you will.
And finally, I absolutely agree. I used to be on preludepower for a long time, and there's just so many people who state, say, their car won't start, people will give them tips of things to check, then they come back saying it still won't start but also say they didn't check their spark plugs cuz it was too hard or they didn't have time. Like, then wtf do you expect from us? MAH CAR DONT START Y IS THIS. CN YOU FIX IT. Haha. The thing that really bugs me though is not just a thank you, is people never come back say how they resolved it. It makes searching a bitch. Hey, I've got that problem too! Oh, the guy never followed up. But honestly. You're good people man. Shop gonna **** with me? Fine. I'll learn everything I can about it, ask informed questions, and then I'll do it myself. And in the end I'll feel good about it, I'll have money that I didn't pay someone to lie to me about extra parts I didn't need, and most of all, I'll feel better about the kindness of people who helped me along the way. So I will raise a glass to you. Thank you. And if you think I'm done harassing you, I'm probably not. So you might have to shut your internet off or something. But please don't.
One of my favorite quotes of all time when someone rejects good automotive advice on the internet: "You don't have to take my advice. I'm just some random stranger spouting bullshit on the internet." Lol
Wow. I just typed for 30min and its now near 1am. She's gonna be annoyed. Lol. We're taking the kids to 6 Flags tomorrow (YAY) so I'll get some pics up here when I can. Have a good weekend dude!
After all that, my response feels inadequate, but here it goes...
The VSS having power steering hooked up to it is definitely Prelude specific depending on what year your car is. '94 - '01 Integras and '92 - '00 Civics have a simple electric connector. The '97 - '01 CRV shares the H22 transmission design and just has an electric connector as well. The only one that throws a curve ball into the mix is JDM OBD-0 B16s and OBD-0 Integras with cable speedometers. (Possibly earlier vehicle models, but that is beyond my knowledge base.)
So since you obviously have power steering lines going to the VSS I am going to assume you have a cable speedometer? The purpose of the PS being connected to the VSS was for speed based power steering reduction. Basically the faster you are driving the more pressure is bypassed so there is less power steering assistance at highway speeds. The newer cars with electronic speed sensors use a electric switch in one of the power steering lines to do the same thing without needed to physically connected to the VSS.
I apologize for my mental blip that you might actually of had PS lines connected to the VSS. Yes, in that case there should be just enough room to remove it and swing it out of the way without breaking the lines open. You can also unbolt the VSS and lower the transmission down some to get more working room if need be. I know it's a little late, but there it is for future reference.
Admittedly, I don't know squat about the Preludes or Accords. I owned a '95? Prelude before and a couple first gen Accords, but for the most part I didn't even pop the hood and they were base models. I reskimmed the thread and didn't see if you mentioned what year of Prelude you are working on? I guess I should have asked that a long time ago...
Sorry for my forgetting about the VSS possibly being hooked into the PS. It isn't even usually on anyone's radar as there aren't many 2nd gen Integras around anymore and the people who do JDM OBD-0 swaps don't hook up the lines to the VSS either since there aren't any provisions for it on their model.
Hahaha, its all good. I'm a talker. I get to talking quickly. Somehow my gf-fiance can out-talk me. It's amazing. I don't stand a chance. And no worries, don't apologize for anything. You've been a great help
I am working on the 1996 Prelude- the 4th gen, same gen as the one you owned, but its the only factory OBD2 4th gen.
I wouldn't know about the cable speedometer, though when I swapped the H22 into the car, it previously had an H23, so I swapped clusters to accurately reflect the new redline. Where I'm going with that is I have the digital cluster, and when I did the swap it was all wiring harnesses, not a single cable. But I can absolutely say that the PS hoses went into the VSS housing. So idk. We'll be home in a bit, then going back over to Grandma &Grandpas so the kids can hang with my parents while I do a little work. I'll take some pics of everything while I'm there. But I totally get what you're saying with the speed based PS reduction. It certainly feels the faster I go, the stiffer it gets.
I'm gonna knock out the rear main seal and remove the flywheel to take pics of everything while we're there. It'll be a bitch cuz my H22 has studs in that 12 bolt plate that extend into the oil pan, so I can't simply take off the plate to change the seal not without removing the oil pan which lol, no. I'll have to do the seal inside the engine bay. Not planning to drain the oil either, so hopefully it won't overflow.
The old main seal came out with ease. Took a minute to get the new seal in but I found an old cam sprocket is the same size. I mounted it flush to the housing. I actually found I could have taken the plate out, but I was a little worried that it wouldn't fully seal going back in after reading some people had problems with that. Idk. I'm sure it'll be fine.
That's what was left of my old clutch disc. No wider than the tip of a lighter. I'd imagine it should be alot thicker.
Broken clutch fork. Gnarly
The VSS with hoses attached. I guess it is Prelude specific.
Flywheel disc appears fine. What looks like grooves in rings don't have any surface feel, no cutting, it's just cosmetic rings. This thing is flat
It is completely smooth. Not a single groove or bump, just smooth.
So at this point I could resurface it at a machine shop, def doesn't need to be replaced, but would a light sanding do just fine? Or don't even touch it? Help. Lol
Also wtf us this? After we pulled off the tranny last night and carted it away from the car I found this lying on the ground next to where we had moved it
I have more pics of everything if u need to see em. I just didn't want to bomb you with 20 of em. Haha
The old clutch disc sorta looks thin, but how much material is left to the rivets would tell the tale. That fork is definitely "forked up".
Yes, that is definitely a hybrid VSS. I personally haven't seen the electronic pigtail with PS attached to the housing. Not that it doesn't exist on other platforms, but in my almost 14 years heavily involved in Hondas I haven't seen it LOL!
That flywheel looks like it may have minor (dare I say "normal" ) hot spots when on the perpendicular face view, but when it is shot from above more parallel orientation, it does indeed look fine. No matter what you MUST at least sand it. The new clutch NEEDS to have that texture to break it in. Be sure to clean all surfafes before install with brake cleaner. That includes flywheel and pressure plate mating surfaces and the clutch disc material itself. If you are reusing the pressure plate, sand that too.
At this point and time, I can't recall at all ever having seen a clip like that aside from in the rear chassis bars / control arm (but it doesn't match it perfectly, just similar). I will look into that more now that I know the year range.
Yeah I've never seen that with a fork either. Forked up! Lol. I searched google and there were forks with cracks or broken in half but not this. I think what happened is the throwout bearing clip broke, and the fork tilted slightly, causing the stud to break one side of the fork ball rather than distribute pressure evenly. Idk. The fork spring is supposed to wrap around the base of the ball stud right? Like the order would go spring->ball stud>fork. It keeps it attached to the stud in a manner of speaking?
The clutch disc material is about an 1/8" above the rivet. So I suppose I will compare it to the Exedy disc on Tuesday.
I def learned something with the VSS then. The steering always felt tighter at higher speed, but I never knew how it worked. Cars are fun! Haha
I'll call a machine shop and see what their cost and turnaround time is. It may just come to a sanding anyways. We'll see how my time plays out. Now that I've done a clutch (and want a Fidanza flywheel with the next one) I don't really care if it lasts 3 years before it's gone. But I'll sand it and use brake cleaner regardless. I was just going to use the pressure plate that comes in the clutch kit.. I suppose I could have bought just a clutch disc but I am certain the fingers on the pressure plate are bent; there was vibration in the clutch pedal at idle and they look a little out of alignment.
As for the clip, someone in one of my fb Honda groups said he thought it was a hose clamp from an older Toyota. My dad does have a newish Lexus that has had a cover over it and hasn't moved in 3 weeks, so I highly doubt it came from that out of nowhere. Plus, being the same tone of grime that the tranny is, I think someone used that clamp in the car before I had it. Idk. I guess if I don't figure it out I'll find out soon enough! Lol.
I did want to ask, though. The pressure plate requires 19ft-lbs on the bolts but my 1/2" Craftsman torque wrench is a 20-150ft-lbs. Would it be acceptable if I torqued them all to my lowest setting of 20ft-lbs then? Usually anything under 20ft-lbs I just tighten by feel so I didn't figure to have this problem.
Hope you had a great weekend dude. How 'bout dem Cubs lol
Yes the clutchfork is held in place by the spring getting "pressed" onto the ball. The ball rides on the fork and the spring keeps tension on the pivot point and wraps around the ball if you will. Here is the parts catalog for a better idea on order (you are correct in your assumption but order is technically wrong):
The pressure plate bolts will be fine if you torque them to 20 ft lbs. I personally always just run them down by hand and crank them a little bit. They torque up fast so just run them down and hit it with your torque wrench to verify. The important part here is making sure you align the clutch with the alignment too correct the first time. I see many people just let the clutch hang off the tool; it's a PITA, but you should try to center it up and then tighten down the pressure plate. It helps to have an extra set of hands.
Now that you mention it, it does almost look similar to that hose clamp style, but still not right...
Then there is this style, but still not correct...
Yeah I don't know what to make of that part. Covered in grime so it obviously didn't come from inside the bell housing, so I guess I won't worry about it for now.
I hear ya on the centering/alignment tool. I assumed the alignment tool would center it as it is, but maybe its just a guide... like for an analogy, its more like a lugcentric wheel with a slightly smaller ID hub bore. If that makes sense. The parts will be here tomorrow, so we'll head back over to Grandpas to get more work done. Lol
I was just going over the torquing crisscross patterns over lunch here. Looks simple enough.
I called a machine shop, who wanted $65-85 to resurface the flywheel. Forget about it. Everything is so damned expensive in the SF Bay Area. So. I'll sand it myself. I'm thinking start with 240 grit and work my way up to 2000? Sand in a circular motion, by hand- not power tool- to ensure that I don't accidentally make the surface uneven. And don't sand with too much force. Almost like waxing the car?
Though I will admit I'm a little weary of sanding if only because I read that hot spots are hardened metal, meaning when I sand, the softer "normal" metal around the hot spots will break away but that will create an uneven surface. But that's assuming I actually have real hot spots.. all the opinions I've gotten so far have all been "your flywheel is fine". So I'll sand it but just want to make sure I have the process down- I'd take your advice over what I find on google, because people have about a million different methods that range from DONT DO IT to USE A DREMEL to IT WORKS FOR ME. Lol
Your analogy is pretty close. The plastic clutch alignment tool that most clutch kits come with aren't perfect. They also allow some sag with the weight of the clutch on them. TONS of people (including myself) have gotten by with just shoving the tool through the clutch and into the pilot without issues.
If for some reason you can't get the transmission all the way up to the block then stop what you are doing. You most likely have the clutch disc out of alignment. This is why I take the time to make sure it's centered properly the first time around. The alignment tool should pull out with minimal drag. If you need a tool to pull it out (or if the ring with ball pops out) you need to recenter the clutch disc; unless of course, you love lifting transmissions in and out multiple times.
It doesn't have to be absolutely perfect as the clutch disc will self center itself the first time you depress the clutch pedal. Pretty much self-explanatory when you think about it.
No, IMO 2,000 Grit is too fine. Use one stage of your choosing. If you are concerned use 400 or 600 grit. I assure you, you aren't going to remove almost any material. Basically all you are shooting to break the sheen. In a pinch I have even used scotchbrite pads without issues on stock replacement clutches. If all this is a concern for you then you could always just not do it.
When you get the new pressure plate, clean the clutch contact surface. Feel that surface after it has dried. You will see from the machining process it isn't perfectly smooth like glass. Basically you are trying to mimic that finish. You definitely don't need any power tools and it shouldn't take you more than a few minutes to do. Just like waxing a car.
Sometimes places like PepBoys or someone with a brake lathe turn flywheels. Yours looks good enough to just sand in my opinion.
No it wasn't a concern to sand it, just wanted to make sure I did it right. Here's how it turned out. Most of everything is gone. I actually sanded counterclockwise in swirls for a good 30min. What u see isn't fingerprints. Just light scratches. It really cleaned up the disc well.
Obviously u mean clean the new pressure plate with brake cleaner, not sanding or anything I'd imagine.
Are all model-specific clutch discs the exact same size in inner and outer diameter? I did notice that the flywheel has a very, very minor ridge (not the actual factory step but you can see where I mean about 1/4" from the factory step into the flywheel) on the inside and outside where the clutch disc contacted. So I'm assuming the new disc will be the same diameter and contact the same area that the old one did, no more no less? I ask because obviously I'd need the flywheel machined if not so that the new disc turns on a completely flat surface. I'll guess find out tomorrow night I suppose haha.
Like I have said before - A newly machined surface is already prepped. It is machined to a specific RA and shouldn't be touched with anything but a cleaning rag. The only thing you need to worry about is the shipping / machining oil. The only time you worry about sanding the pressure plate is when it is used. The new disc needs a prepped surface to cut itself in on.
Yes, always spray down parts with brake cleaner. You technically don't even want to touch the mating surfaces with your fingers or anything. Any oil you put on the surfaces has a negative effect on the clutch break-in. Seating the clutch is the most important part of the entire job and clean mating surfaces free of all traces of oil is a must!!! This is non-negotiable. The longevity of your clutch relies on a clean install and a proper break-in afterwords. Most manufacturers recommend 500 miles of easy driving. Definitely refer to the instructions for this on your specific clutch.
Unfortunately all clutches are not created equal, BUT stock replacement clutches are usually very close. When you get your new clutch disc put it up against the flywheel to check. Most clutch discs don't cover the entire flywheel surface even on all OEM setups. The gap looks a little large from what I am used to, but I wouldn't say it's alarming.
As far as needing to turn the flywheel, we are getting back to the whole "right, wrong, debated" subject line. IMO It doesn't look like the step is even worth talking about. Given, I am not there, but I have not machined MUCH worse without issue. All you can do is put the clutch disc on the flywheel and go from there. You have to decide what you are comfortable with.
Speaking of clutch discs repeatedly, I feel the need to say this just in case you didn't know. Make sure you put the disc on the right way!!! There is a flywheel side and a pressure plate side. The clutch material itself is technically reversible (depending on design/relief cuts/etc...) but there is a raised side and a flat side. Almost ALWAYS (definitely on Hondas) the flat side goes towards the flywheel. If you do this backwards, the pressure plate fingers will be pressed all the way inwards and you will be dropping the transmission again.
I only had clients half the day, Yay. And the clutch arrived at my dads. Yeah I'm def happy with the flywheel. Looks like most of the marks on it were actually clutch residue, seeing how easily them came off. So absolutely good there
New clutch disc fits inside the old "grooves" perfectly. With that said, I'm absolutely happy and confident in how it looks. It's just that usually, I will do like 8 hours of research on a particular part of a particular job, so I understand it inside and out, upside down etc. When it comes to sanding/surfacing flywheels, there really isn't a consensus. Which is why I tended I guess to dig as deep as I could. There really isn't a right or wrong, there is a "better" right of course, but there is also a time to not throw more money at something that doesn't need it.
I'd hope I could put the clutch on the right direction lol I forgot to buy brake cleaner so I'm gonna use carb cleaner on the flywheel, plate, clutch etc. From what I've been able to ascertain from a couple texts and calls, its not oil based either and will be fine.
EDIT: holy crap carb cleaner is not oil based but does contain oil. Glad I caught that beforehand. Off to the store it is! For real brake cleaner
Time to put this **** back together! Hopefully have it done by tonight and watch the Warriors win a title!! Woot woot
Yes, good thing you caught that... I was about to warn you. The reason for that is it basically has lubrication for the aftermath of cleaning your carb. If you just use brake cleaner there will surely be corrosion afterwards as it tends to strip everything out. There is definitely usually reason for different cleaning products. I hear all about it from my wife when I try and clean up a mess myself.
While we are on the subject, NON-chlorinated is preferred as well. Especially since there is significant heat in the clutch assembly. Either way, any type of brake cleaner is preferred to carb & choke cleaner. Do not be shy with the brake cleaner either! Good luck bud, I am rooting for you!
06-06-2015, 09:32 PM
clutch disengagement issue
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