Wildcatt88

Why are B's so dominant over D engines? (I did search before asking the questions, btw...)

-16V-

I think it's just that second cam that just excites people....

Wildcatt88

I hope it isn't just the second cam... But if so, I sure would like to knnow what that second one is doing to make such a big difference...

func-tion

Its simple... Becaue you can extract more power from b series than you can with a d series.
Look around...
Allmotor guys here brag about getting 220+hp with some b series setups and the most Ive seen any d hit was in the 180's

And then there is turbo.
b sereis its common to see 400+
d about 250-300

Its all about money. If you want to spend 10,000 dollars (including motor swap) on a fully built b go ahead.
If you have a lower budget get a d series and turbo it for less than 5,000

Its all preferance

Wildcatt88

Yes, but I am asking WHY is it that the B can make and handle more power than the D.

func-tion

B sereis heads flow better wich is a big factor in making hp not to mention some B series blocks have more displacement.

If you start out with a b series block its like getting a head start.
A stock b18c makes as much power and more torqe than some fully built d series.

Why would you put the time and effort fourth sinking a couple thousand dollars into a motor to make it as strong and less reliable than a stock motor that you can easily drop in your car that would be more reliable and more cost effective. Not to mention has more potential.because its still stock and making as much power as a built d.

I dont think honda ever made a "sporty" car with a d series in it. all d sereis are econo engines.

Kendall

D series engines were designed and engineered to haul Grandma back and forth to the grocery store. B series engines were designed and engineered with road racing in mind. Naturally, an engine designed with motorsports in mind will have certain design features that help it perform much better than Grandma's grocery getter.

That is as simple as I can explain it.

Wildcatt88

Can we get any comments with numbers, or specs, or values that will tell us why the B is so much better?

parts890

B Motors are desinged for power, the dual cams allow the valves to angle in more then the d series making them more effiecent, B seires VTEC change the valve timing of the intake and exhaust valves, while d siereis vtec only change the timing of the intake valves because there is a shortage of room on the singal camshaft to acuate the exhaust valves and change the timing D series are just economical motors for power buy a B seires, B seires stock rods and block are built to handle over 350 hp while the d seires just over 200 stock, B seires are built for more for performance but if you drive like a grandma expect to get well over 400k on any honda motor just keep up with the routine timing belt and water pump changed

91DA9

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by -16V- &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think it's just that second cam that just excites people.... </TD></TR></TABLE>

But lets dont forget the trusty D16A1 and D16A3 from the 86-89 Integra, both DOHC motors. (Both still have lower torque than a Bseries due to displacement. They also don't seem to be built as strong as the Bseries, especially the VTEC ones.)

I loved my '86 Integra.

Wildcatt88

While I am getting some ideas, I still haven't heard anything like concrete facts that tell why a B can get so much more power than a D. The Dual cams are a start, but it doesn't tell me everything... Anyone else have more information?

onePOINTsix

well in stock form a B will out proform a D because of a few reasones:
1. Heads flow alot more
2. More displacement (larger bore, shorter stroke)

B motors can hold more power because:
1. Thicker rods
2. Stronger crank

D motors usually can make for tourqe due to the 75mm bore and long 81.5mm (i think) stroke, as for the B that can make more power and rev higher due to the short stroke ( the LS is a exception because it has a longer stroke then a B18C series block). Now you always see people reving motors like the B16A-B or B18C series higher due to the fact that they have oil squirters to cool the pistons when moving really fast. I personally would never take a D above 8000rpm because i'd be too worried that I'd strech a rod or break the crank due to a factory shitty balance job.

Hope that helps

kur0ryu

If you do a side by side comparison, B's are bigger. D's look puny

blah13

One thing that hasnt been mentioned yet (and I'm suprised) is cam profile and compression! With B-series revving a good bit higher, they run much more aggressive cam profiles, which accompanied by high compression = great power gain. Add in all the other stuff, flowing heads, displacement for the b18/20, and stronger stock internals and you get your answer.

Let a ZC rev to 8k, add the cam profile (exospeed stage 2) and up the compression from 9.5 to the 10.5-11 range and your looking at 145ish crank power. Add in the flowing head, manifolds and tb like the B series along with appropriate ecu tuning and you'l see the ZC right up with the b16. Granted all that money into the ZC youd be better off with the b16 but hey, if $ werent an option they could be made idnetical.

Wildcatt88

^ BUMP ^

4crx4me

IMHO Neither one is "better" than the other.
They are just "different" from each other.
And they are different from each for different reasons. They were designed in different eras and to accomplish different tasks.
Some people would say the big-block chevy was "better" than the small-block chevy. But the small-block celebrates it's 50th birthday this year, while the big-block which only lasted about 10 years, is now virtually extinct.
First of all.
The B is a much newer design than the D. At least 5 years newer, if not 10. Everything honda had learned with the D, went into the B.
They had already tried their hand at DOHC D's and such.
And their design parameters were shaped by the eras they were designed in. The late '70's vs. the late 80's.
I wouldn't say the B was designed "for" racing, per se'. But everything honda had learned "in racing" went into the B. And by the time the first B's came into wide use hondas engine needs were no longer the same. Reliabilty and fuel econmy were already well established. Now they needed an engine family that was more versatile and "tuneable". Hence the need for a "new" engine family.
And also remember that before the B's were widely available, DOHC engines were not that common and were sort of "semi-exotic".
Just some of my random thoughts on the subject.

Wildcatt88

Ok, here's the last bump... ^

civic_hatchback

I really didnt think that anyone had to ask that question.

1point5CRX

i see it as a money thing, you can have fun with either engine but if i had the extra cash, i would have a ls/vtec under my hood

Lscivichatch92

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sideout &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well in stock form a B will out proform a D because of a few reasones:
1. Heads flow alot more
2. More displacement (larger bore, shorter stroke)

D motors usually can make for tourqe due to the 75mm bore and long 81.5mm (i think) stroke, as for the B that can make more power and rev higher due to the short stroke ( the LS is a exception because it has a longer stroke then a B18C series block). Now you always see people reving motors like the B16A-B or B18C series higher due to the fact that they have oil squirters to cool the pistons when moving really fast. I personally would never take a D above 8000rpm because i'd be too worried that I'd strech a rod or break the crank due to a factory shitty balance job.

Hope that helps </TD></TR></TABLE>

WRONG WRONGY WRONG WRONG d series dont have more displacement than a b series cuz if they did they would have d20s and d18s but they dont the highest u get is a d17 which is brand new in the new civic ex's the b series smallest is b16 which is 1.6 liter and the largest d series is 1.7 liter d17 and the largest b series is 2.0 liter so no they do not flow better and they dont have more displacement

and the oil squirter thing is bullshit too cuz many people with lsvtecs dont use the oil squirters and they still rev to 9k the only thing that is the difference with the revablitlity is the fact that b-series sleeves are stronger, girdled, and balanced a hell of a lot better than a d-series

my .02cents

edit: if i confused anyone sorry long day at work and i could get what i was thinking written down

TheHooded_Mike

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lscivichatch92 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

WRONG WRONGY WRONG WRONG d series dont have more displacement than a... </TD></TR></TABLE>

He was saying B-series have more displacement...

Imprezor

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TheHooded_Mike &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

They are just "different" from each other.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Exactly. They've been built for different tasks in this life hehe...

Besides, almost all of B series have DOHC VTEC cam, that's huge advantage.
Now let's take a look on D series. Almost all of them SOHC, vtec runing only on z6 and y8 if Im not wrong... not an advantage. Although I like D16Z6 and D16Y8 and ZC, they won't ever be a B hehe.
Besides you got the internals, as someone said up there, stronger crankshaft! In fact this is really importante 'cause is the poor crankshaft who recieves all the torque :S
B's are high-tech engines
D's are the echonoboxes for us in Venezuela, where watching a B is like having god in front of you


Modified by Imprezor at 5:48 AM 5/23/2004


Modified by Imprezor at 5:49 AM 5/23/2004

Distorted

Its important to remember, after reading all the information above, that you should consider stock to stock, and built to built in the world of motors. Stock to stock, the B is superior in technology, dicplacement, air flow, and multiple other areas. Built to built, again, the B series will run a superior motor, not only because of the initially advanced engine, but its more expandable. A D series can't be bored out to far or you start destroying headgaskets(you can get to about 1.7 liters, maybe a bit over. dont believe me, ask Larry at Endyn), while a B seires can gain .2 liters or more in displacement. Its true that for the amount of horse power produced, the D series will produce more torque, both sooner and for longer, than a B series will, but overall the B series will probably produce more hp and torque, just not as proportionatly. Just make sure you always compare apples to apples if ya can.

4crx4me

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Distorted &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Its true that for the amount of horse power produced, the D series will produce more torque, both sooner and for longer, than a B series will, but overall the B series will probably produce more hp and torque, just not as proportionatly. Just make sure you always compare apples to apples if ya can.</TD></TR></TABLE>
This here is the only "real" difference, performance-wise between the D and B, that matters.
The D IS a better torgue producer at a lower RPM for longer than a B. Due to it's internal design.
A very oversimplified example would be a Harley-Davidson motorcycle engine VS. a any Jap sport-bike engine
The Harley pulls harder off the line, due to it massive low rpm torque output, but within a short distance once the jap bike gets up to speed it WILL leave the Harley far behind.

master13g

technical info

OK

This is how you would calculate displacement.

r = radius of bore
pi = 3.14159

B16a componets
rod = 13.4 cm
stroke = 7.74 cm
bore = 8.1 cm diameter

D16 componets
rod = 13.7 cm
stroke = 9.0 cm
bore = 7.5 cm diameter

r^2 x pi x stroke x 4(cylinders) = displacement

B16
4.05^2 x 3.14159 x 7.74 x 4 = 1595 cc

D16
3.75^2 x 3.14159 x 9.0 x 4 = 1590 cc

NOW 5 cc's doesn't make a huge difference but the issue is R/S ratio (rod/stroke)
when you have a rod that has a long stroke, in has to travel farther. When the rod is, in lamens terms, more sideways it is pushed into the side wall of the cylinder. Obviously this means that there will be more pressure on the wall. Performance wise the less stress on the engine the better it will perform. The B16a (my opinion the best Honda engine) has a near perfect R/S ration of 1.74:1. Theroetically a perfect R/S ration is 1.75:1. The y8 on the other hand is 1.52:1.

Piston ring compression also comes into play. The higher the compression inside the cylinder the more power you will get from combustion. D series engines typically run 9.2-9.6:1 compression while B16's run 10.2:1 or 10.4:1. Also why the B series have more power.

make sense to you?