pynikal

ive got a 95 hatch with tenzo r lowering springs every bar imaginable in the car just short of a roll cage. i got 17s for it and they rub a little bit while turning hard. i love they way the car handles now on stock shocks but know it can handle much better. ive got about 250-350 to spend. would like to do autocrossing in the future. and am going to run it at heartland park topeka in the summer for fun to see if i can run with my buddies celica that he thinks is this poo. thanks for your time.

Spoon-EK9

my suggestion is for you to spend that money and get 15" rims. 17 is just TOO big for EG HBs. Unless your car is turboed, i see no reason why you should be running on 17"

Stinkycheezmonky

First, 17s alone aren't too big for any car. They might LOOK too big, but with the properly sized tire they'll fit. Second, the wheel size has nothing to do with what kind of engine you have or how much power you're putting down. Tire choice again DOES matter, but more for compound than size.

To answer the original question, you're not going to find much for $250-350 that'll do anything for you. Your best bet would be to use whatever springs you have (maybe even stock) with Koni Yellow or Red shocks. The yellows are adjustable, but more expensive, and that adjustability is probably more than you need to worry about at this point. I don't believe either of those can be had for quite that cheap, but you might get lucky with a sale or a good used set. Maybe sell some of those "bars" you have for additional cash, as most of them are 100% a waste of money.

Lastly, you don't mention it, but what tires are you using? If you have really shitty tires, an awesome suspension won't do you much good. Again, think compound, not size. As far as the road/pavement is concerned, that one little patch of rubber actually touching the ground is all that matters, and the diameter won't affect that.

pynikal

well to start off the tyres that i have are 205 40zr17 nexens. i never heard of them either, but so far ive been kind of impressed. they are a 280 tred wear and a AA traction rating. i though about going back to stock springs with the konis cuz i had konis on my other hatch and they worked really well for me. i was thinking about maybe some tokicos or kybs but have no experince with them. another thing is that i really like the ride hieght of the car it almost perfect, in my eyes, about a half inch above the tyre. and as for the "bars" i have dont they help the handling aspect of the car? its so tight its awesome except for the roll factor. getting shocks will help right. i hope that i am not wasting your time thanks for your knowledge on the topic.

Spoon-EK9

of course 17" will fit with proper tires. i am not saying they are not fitting on civics

NA cars have 15~16" rims with wide tires so they can maximize their handlings by having superior responses on steering wheels. Turbo cars use 17" because it is simply offering the wider offset than any 16 or 15s so it has better tractions.

that is why i said quote "17 is just TOO big for EG HBs. Unless your car is turboed, i see no reason why you should be running on 17"

it is of course up to him to does whatever he wants on his car. But he was asking opions for better handling setups. so that is why i told him to use smaller wheels so he can have better handling UNLESS his car is turboed which was not mentioned.

Stinkycheezmonky

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by pynikal &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i was thinking about maybe some tokicos or kybs but have no experince with them. another thing is that i really like the ride hieght of the car it almost perfect, in my eyes, about a half inch above the tyre. and as for the "bars" i have dont they help the handling aspect of the car? getting shocks will help right. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Konis will be better than either Tokicos or KYBs, but they're not terrible either. Ride height will affect how the car feels a lot less than which shock you pick, so keep that in mind. If appearance matters more to you (it does to some people, just a matter of preference), then go with whatever you like more. The bars, assuming they're strut/tie bars, will do next to nothing for you. Sway bars will have a decent effect, assuming they're sized and designed properly. Shock will DEFINITELY help you. And don't worry about wasting our time, that's what this forum is for. You're looking for help, being polite and receptive to suggestions, and are learning.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Spoon-EK9 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A cars have 15~16" rims with wide tires so they can maximize their handlings by having superior responses on steering wheels. Turbo cars use 17" because it is simply offering the wider offset than any 16 or 15s so it has better tractions.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Look, I'm sorry, but you really don't know what you're talking about. Wheel diameter has no bearing on wheel width or offset. You can get a 13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20" wheel in just about any offset you want, in any width you want. 13x9, +20 offset? Done. 15x7, +32 offset? Done. 17x6, +45 offset? Done. In addition to availability, there's a limit as to what will fit without a lot of work. +32 is one of the lowest offsets I've seen that works (One guy I saw was supposedly running 15x7 +25, but I doubt it's authenticity). As for superior responses... most 15s and 16s are lighter than 17s simply because there's less metal in the wheel (two wheels, same make, different sizes), which would be less rotational mass so you will in theory accelerate faster, but that doesn't really have any bearing on steering wheel response.

Mohsin

Some one who knows what they are talking about, good info here since the most likely reason people keep saying 15"/16" is due to the wheel being lighter.

I'v got another question, how would 17x7.5 14lbs wheels compare to 16x7 15lbs wheels?

pynikal

youd think the 17s because there less rotational mass

pynikal

but bigger tyre so more weight???? maybe

Mohsin

depends since the wall on the smaller wheel is higher so I guess that would not make so much of a difference

Stinkycheezmonky

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mohsin &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'v got another question, how would 17x7.5 14lbs wheels compare to 16x7 15lbs wheels?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, then you get into other things like wheel design. The 17 might have an overall lighter weight, but more weight could be situated on the outside of the wheel than for the 16. The reverse could also be true. It's really impossible to tell without seeing both actual wheels being compared. What I WOULD look at is the selection of tires available for each wheel size. 16" tires are notoriously difficult to find, while 17" tires are much more commonplace nowadays. If you have a 6lb wheel, and one shitty all-season tire that can be mounted to it, it doesn't matter how great that wheel is.

bmoua

auto crossing go with konis...or kyb adj...and plz get the some 15's or 16's..but on a hatch 15s should do for autocrossing...

pynikal

with 15s the tyres all have alot of roll (50 series) how should i get rid of that.???

Voyage34

I would think if you increase the tire pressure it should diminish tire roll

Spoon-EK9

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sscguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


Look, I'm sorry, but you really don't know what you're talking about. Wheel diameter has no bearing on wheel width or offset. You can get a 13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20" wheel in just about any offset you want, in any width you want. 13x9, +20 offset? Done. 15x7, +32 offset? Done. 17x6, +45 offset? Done. In addition to availability, there's a limit as to what will fit without a lot of work. +32 is one of the lowest offsets I've seen that works (One guy I saw was supposedly running 15x7 +25, but I doubt it's authenticity). As for superior responses... most 15s and 16s are lighter than 17s simply because there's less metal in the wheel (two wheels, same make, different sizes), which would be less rotational mass so you will in theory accelerate faster, but that doesn't really have any bearing on steering wheel response.</TD></TR></TABLE>

if you are talking about drap racing, then YES the size of wheels won't matter but the offset is. BUT if you are into track racing just as I do, then you should seriously reconsider the idea you have there becasue the size of rims actually contributes on reducing time on track.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Voyage34 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would think if you increase the tire pressure it should diminish tire roll</TD></TR></TABLE>

in addition, i believe car will have understeer if you put too much pressure on tires. You can only maximize grip by having just the right amount of tire pressure

Stinkycheezmonky

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Spoon-EK9 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if you are talking about drap racing, then YES the size of wheels won't matter but the offset is. BUT if you are into track racing just as I do, then you should seriously reconsider the idea you have there becasue the size of rims actually contributes on reducing time on track.

in addition, i believe car will have understeer if you put too much pressure on tires. You can only maximize grip by having just the right amount of tire pressure</TD></TR></TABLE>

UGH. STOP. I AM into tracking, have been doing so for four years, and do know what I'm talking about. The rim diameter has NOTHING to do with how the power is put down. By the laws of physics it doesn't even make sense. Your claim of 17s having lower offsets available than 15s or 16s is just plain wrong. ANY SIZE WHEEL is available in ANY OFFSET. That's just how it is. I'm also not saying offset doesn't matter. It does. But wheel diameter has no relation to what offset you can use, other than manufacturer availability.

Now if you somehow meant (I'm really reaching here) that the wheel size matters for laptimes by the WEIGHT of the wheel, and that a smaller diameter wheel will typically weigh less than a larger diameter wheel, yes, that would reduce laptime by virtue of the fact that the car weighs less overall and has less unsprung weight. If you mean anything other than that though, you're just plain wrong. I don't know how else to explain it to you. Since you used the example of tracking, you'd be familiar with Honda Challenge race cars. At least here on the East Coast, no one, including the H1 front runners, use anything bigger than a 15 (with the possible exception of the S2000s). I'd say they're putting down pretty decent power (~230whp), and are certainly running fast laps. The non-competitive HPDErs I know, including the turbo ones, ALSO run 15s.

As for tire pressures, you can't say increased tire pressure will induce understeer. If you increase tire pressure in the front past the ideal pressure, while leaving the rear at the ideal pressure, yes, it will understeer more. But if you reverse that, increasing the rear instead, you'll induce oversteer. You could achieve the same effect by decreasing the tire pressure below ideal in the rear as well.

For the guy asking how to reduce it, some tires have stiffer sidewalls than others (Azenis for example), so going with something like that would be your best bet. If your tire pressures are optimized, you shouldn't have too much tire roll anyway, assuming they're not totally crappy tires to begin with. You could find out that pressure by marking a chalk line on the sidewall, going out, coming back in and seeing where the chalk wore off. If it wore off too far down the sidewall, you need to increase pressure. There should be a wear marker just a little ways down the sidewall from the outside of the tire to indicate where the limit of wear should be. On the old Azenis, it was a little triangle pointing outward. FWIW, when I was using Azenis, I had no problems with rolling, either in feel or tire wear. That is a stiff-*** tire.

chrisw85

sscguy knows what he's talking about

Spoon-EK9

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sscguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

UGH. STOP. I AM into tracking, have been doing so for four years, and do know what I'm talking about. The rim diameter has NOTHING to do with how the power is put down. By the laws of physics it doesn't even make sense. Your claim of 17s having lower offsets available than 15s or 16s is just plain wrong. ANY SIZE WHEEL is available in ANY OFFSET. That's just how it is. I'm also not saying offset doesn't matter. It does. But wheel diameter has no relation to what offset you can use, other than manufacturer availability.

Now if you somehow meant (I'm really reaching here) that the wheel size matters for laptimes by the WEIGHT of the wheel, and that a smaller diameter wheel will typically weigh less than a larger diameter wheel, yes, that would reduce laptime by virtue of the fact that the car weighs less overall and has less unsprung weight. If you mean anything other than that though, you're just plain wrong. I don't know how else to explain it to you. Since you used the example of tracking, you'd be familiar with Honda Challenge race cars. At least here on the East Coast, no one, including the H1 front runners, use anything bigger than a 15 (with the possible exception of the S2000s). I'd say they're putting down pretty decent power (~230whp), and are certainly running fast laps. The non-competitive HPDErs I know, including the turbo ones, ALSO run 15s.

As for tire pressures, you can't say increased tire pressure will induce understeer. If you increase tire pressure in the front past the ideal pressure, while leaving the rear at the ideal pressure, yes, it will understeer more. But if you reverse that, increasing the rear instead, you'll induce oversteer. You could achieve the same effect by decreasing the tire pressure below ideal in the rear as well.

For the guy asking how to reduce it, some tires have stiffer sidewalls than others (Azenis for example), so going with something like that would be your best bet. If your tire pressures are optimized, you shouldn't have too much tire roll anyway, assuming they're not totally crappy tires to begin with. You could find out that pressure by marking a chalk line on the sidewall, going out, coming back in and seeing where the chalk wore off. If it wore off too far down the sidewall, you need to increase pressure. There should be a wear marker just a little ways down the sidewall from the outside of the tire to indicate where the limit of wear should be. On the old Azenis, it was a little triangle pointing outward. FWIW, when I was using Azenis, I had no problems with rolling, either in feel or tire wear. That is a stiff-*** tire.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I didn't say smaller sized wheels are not offering offsets which are offered on bigger wheels. What I am saying is that smaller rims actually better for N/A cars than Turbo cars. Besides the fact of tractions, the advantage of having N/A cars is superior handling response. What I am trying to say is that smaller rims(15~16") give better response than bigger rims (like 17").

But alright alright i don't want to argue anymore. So let's stop here. You have your way of setting cars, I have my way of setting cars.

downest

Way back to the original post, he said he's looking for some shocks for $250-350. You probably aren't going to find Konis for that, but you can get Tokico Illuminas for just over $300 from motorsportsdirect. Of course everyone loves the Konis but they are expensive, and you have to ask yourself, will you notice a difference between the two (and is that a couple hundred dollar difference?). I have the Illuminas on my CRX now, and I have a couple of friends with them on non-Hondas, we all love them. I can also vouch for Tokico's and MSD's excellent customer service, I broke two of mine on installation and they were very helpful and got my replacements to me fast.

gritsak

Spoon-EK9: you are an idiot, quit filling the thread with your incoherent babbling.

On the topic..i have had great luck with koni yellows..if you dont have the $$ for them, you could always go with the red's. the reds are kinda soft and arent externally adjustable though.

with the amount of money you have i would try and find something used with low mileage from a reliable seller.

Spoon-EK9

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gritsak &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Spoon-EK9: you are an idiot, quit filling the thread with your incoherent babbling.

On the topic..i have had great luck with koni yellows..if you dont have the $$ for them, you could always go with the red's. the reds are kinda soft and arent externally adjustable though.

with the amount of money you have i would try and find something used with low mileage from a reliable seller.</TD></TR></TABLE>



you don't even know me man. don't call me an idiot..stupid ***

chrisw85

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Spoon-EK9 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I didn't say smaller sized wheels are not offering offsets which are offered on bigger wheels. What I am saying is that smaller rims actually better for N/A cars than Turbo cars. Besides the fact of tractions, the advantage of having N/A cars is superior handling response. What I am trying to say is that smaller rims(15~16") give better response than bigger rims (like 17").

But alright alright i don't want to argue anymore. So let's stop here. You have your way of setting cars, I have my way of setting cars.</TD></TR></TABLE>

ok. so, if by what you say, that smaller rims give better reponse than bigger 17" rims, then why not would 15" rims offer better 'response' than 17" rims on a turbo car? your statements have been quite contradictory . so a ferrari F430 would have better response with 15" rims versus the 19" that come with it, the F430 is an NA car.

just about the only reason i can think that most if any [honda] racers go with anything bigger than 15" is to fit bigger brakes or because of sanction-spec'd tires/sizes.

and. 'response' in what sense? turn in feel? sidewall flex? a 17" tire would have shorter sidewall than a 15" tire and therefore would have a stiffer sidewall and therefore would have more turn-in response. but then you look at a formula 1 machine and you see how much sidewall they have.

whether or not a car is forced induction or naturally asparated has nothing (or very little) to do with the suspension/handling response aspect of it. Although the power of an engine often has to do with the 'overall balance' of the car, how one can use the engine power to shift weight in certain corners or slide out the rear with the throttle.

Stinkycheezmonky

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Spoon-EK9 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I didn't say smaller sized wheels are not offering offsets which are offered on bigger wheels. </TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Spoon-EK9 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Turbo cars use 17" because it is simply offering the wider offset than any 16 or 15s so it has better tractions.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't know what "better tractions" is either, but I won't get into that. I'm not trying to argue with you, but rather educate you. You have a misconception about wheel diameter, I'm showing the logic behind why that idea is incorrect. As I pointed out earlier, and as chrisw has pointed out, smaller wheels are better for ANY engine setup. Just because you have more power doesn't mean you should add rotational resistance or something. I mean, that's just silly. However, if you're that set in your ideas, I won't be able to change them. This is more for the rest of the community anyway, to stop the spread of misinformation.

And chrisw, you're absolutely right about the sidewall flex. That's the only argument I've ever heard for using a bigger wheel (other than WC spec/big brakes), but in my experience, the choice of tire made a way bigger difference than the diameter. 17" Kumho 711s are WAY softer and had way more roll than 15" Azenis. They might've actually been softer than the 14" Azenis now that I think about it...

s13browe

ok the only real advantage over 17s and 15s or even 13s is that you can fit differint tires to change your final drive. because you can get any offset or width. like if in the quarter mile you had to shift right before the finish and it was slowing your times you could use a smaller wheel diameter so you could ride those rpms all the way past the finish instead of shifting. thats just one example.
And for say a road race course with higher speeds you might do better with 17s but on a small 1st 2nd gear autox course you would do better with a 13x9 size wheel...smaller is better for quick exceleration but bigger is better for top end. The advantage on a turbo car with bigger wheels is that they can ride out there rpms more while in boost. if smaller wheels they would be loosing trackion and shifting way too soon to get a good pull from the car. too big and the car would be too slow but could have higher top end highway racing...
I personally like 15s on a honda they fit good with a 205/50r15 tire but it depends on what u need it for...

chrisw85

last i checked, tires had their own diameter independant of the wheel size, that is to say that you can get a 22" dia tire in both a 15" wheel and a 17" wheel, so i dont understand your post s13