meb58

It's a fad if you don't understand how a car works. Static camber affects dynamic camber and static camber affects roll center location and migration and roll centers absolutely affect roll moments. But if you're in this for looks you won't care about any of that.

But, to be clear, it is not a fad...proper camber evaluation is fundamental to proper handling.

To your last question...it's not okay...hence a camber kit is not a fad. If the tires are on their corners whilst the car is sitting still, they may well be cornering on an even smaller slice of the edge whilst cornering - the camber curve determines this characteristic of handling. You have to evaluate what the tire sees through the entire suspension stroke.

TunerN00b

Because the tire is full of air. Like a balloon pressed against something, the tire deforms to the road surface.

Unless you have super low profile tires, excessively stiff sidewalls, or over inflate the tires, the entire tread surface will be in contact, even with large values of negative camber.

Of course, part of the "hella flush" style is either low profile tires or stretched sidewalls, and doing either (and especially both) will result in very stiff sidewalls and a much greater chance of seeing "camber wear".

Then again, driving like an idiot (peeling out, slamming on the brakes hard, tearing through corners) will also result in uneven wear, which people then try and claim is "camber wear". This makes it difficult to separate the good information from the bad.

meb58

But!!! The contact patch is not symetrical and there are other forces at work that determine wear. The contact patch is typically an ovoid triangle and becomes more so with more neg camber.

The differences in we sometimes read about with a relative camber value is where the car is driven. I used a number of my DDs as track cars. While drive 40 - 50 miles day on the highway the wear on the inside edge of the tire was much more noticable than the same mileage on a curvy mountain road. A smaller slice of the tire is being used to propel the car in straight ahead on the highway while all of the tire is being used on a curvy mountain road.

Digressive shocks/dampers heat tires up faster and may contribute to faster wear...heavier spring rates will contribute to faster wear, and, a given camber angle tells us nothing about how low a car is...how aggressive is the camber curve and what does the tire see in roll? Ideally, a stiffer the setup needs less static neg camber. A mac strut will run out of dynamic camber at some ppoijt during its stroke so it will need more static neg camber to compensate...and SLA setup gains neg camber in roll and too much here is very bad...cars don't like to corner on the inside edge.

And toe out literally drags the tire down the road...chewing it up. Interestingly, it is this dragging phenomenon that helps turn-in as the wheel is turned...the insdie tire attempts to scrub off more speed than the outside ture and we get rotation and slightly better initial turn-in grip.

nu2teg

so if looking at the front of my car. I see all 4 tires are leaning in. is this not a camber issue??????? 97'integra bought it this way a little over a year ago. Also looking to change up the suspension cause I was told that the springs were heated to drop the car. and have already blowed out a set of kyb's on the back. Been looking at the megan street series like the price.

meb58

Meagan is a bargin brand...very nice design concept that retains shock travel while lowering...but the damper units won't last long.

Leaning in is a bit subjective...actual camber values tell the story.

nu2teg

Why weak valving on the damping side????????????

98civdx

With heated springs, the car is deffinetly lowerd so it would be runing negative camber.

meb58

If this question is for me...they heat up a lot and I will guess that some of the internals are not up to playing hard. I performed some R&D for them in another application...found a few sort of glaring problems that were easy to fix. But the damper cylinders are cheap...when the blow you can buy new ones for $50-$60 each if I remember. you might get 40-60K fairly hard miles out of them - street miles. Add in track miles and that range shrinks quickly.

I don't know what you are driving, but if it is a later Mac Strut design, Meagan's upper pillowball/rod end bearing cannot be hurt. Very accurate feeling imparted to the steerring -if you don't mind a little more graininess in the feel.

red96turbols

You forget to mention the stressed angles on every other component of the vehicle. Wheel bearings, axles, LCA bushings... Camber doesn't affect just the tires. And yes, camber does wear tires pre maturely, so saying you don't need a camber kit is completely false. Its more over personal preference.

The contact patch idea is false also. If the tire is sitting cocked on its side, thats how its going to wear. Yes, toe does in fact destroy tires rapidly, but over time, camber is going to wear out the tires inside edge (assuming your camber is negative) before the tire would reach all wear bars across the tires contact surface. I love how everyone says "camber doesn't wear tires" "you don't need a camber kit" yeah, you may not want one, but its not a bad idea. If you have money to spend on tires more frequently than others then by all means, run your sh*t negative.

I have my alignment set perfect, had it aligned numerous times, have camber kits installed and yes, before I installed them, my Nitto tires were wearing drastically on the inside edge and are already down 3/32nds from the rest of the tire. Granted they are only a 28k rated tire, the tire wear is still evident and its apparent where it came from as toe is set correctly.

And the camber was run negative for 3-4 months before I corrected it. So why does everyone keep saying it doesn't wear tires? It does. Its a known fact and its common knowledge and basic physics. If you are going to feed the tire industry, come on down to Big Ho and I'll gladly sell you a new set of tires. and no, we won't pro-rate them due to the fact your alignment is out of whack.

Rebelliuz

iTrader: (1)

damn, people getting angsty just because some people don't want to throw a camber kit on their car.
chill out people, sheesh. don't get your nuts in a knot. :\

Mr. Spade

I just had the shop manager install a SPC front camber kit on my RSX-S (lowered 1.5"F 1.25R) since after he installed my Progress Coilovers it was uneven in front.

Yesterday it was at -1.5 even but after taking a slightly aggressive turn (smooth road) the wheel isn't straight. What to do?

red96turbols

Take it back. I've seen jam nuts and ball joint fasteners left loose before. Either the tech was in a rush or they just didn't care. In fact, take it to another shop and have them check it out, get their opinion. If they can fix it, pay for it. Bring that invoice to the shop you got it done originally at and make them comp you for it. Or refund your original purchase. Thats not supposed to happen. I take my car around turns really aggressively just because it feels awesome when the chassis doesn't roll and your tires don't squeel.

__erik__

damn... and i just put on a camber kit.

JPerkMr954

Very interesting read as I'm looking to lower my 2000 Coupe.. I was always under the impression(like many others) that you had to get a camber kit once its lowered to correct issues that are caused. Now, I know what toe in and tow out is.. but what is the adjustment where the tire is going inward or outward at the top where the base of the tire is more aligned flat with the road verse leaded inward?

meb58

Camber also affects roll moments since it's angle determines half the geometry in locating instant centers and roll centers. It's more than just tire wear.

The title of this thread bugs me because it is a generalization and it assumes most folks don't care about proper hanlding.

Honda Bull

Same here. I've seen this for awhile but never commented. But what you and red96turbols says is pretty much dead on. Roll moments, stress on parts, and tire wear are all affected by camber.

Hell, even with the main argument for tire wear, rubber still wears, regardless of camber. But camber will dictate where it wears. Even set at 0-degrees toe in/out, that portion of the tire IS going to wear more due to road surface variations, speed of corner and how far you push the grip level of the tire, etc. By not having the correct camber to take up the majority of the tire (along with correct tire pressure) for good tire wear, you WILL attain camber wear...

So yeah... uh... retarded thread title and argument against camber kits. They aren't necessary, but they certainly help if the camber is really poor. Which, really poor camber is very noticeable in wet conditions.

speedy86

Good write up!!

usdm_ED7

does anyone know if the skunk2 camber kit has less clearance then the stock arms? i forgot to compare them with my stock arms and i dont know where i put them. i was just asking cause my s2 arms bang the heck out of my shock tower. i might buy some stock arms and put them.

TunerN00b

They have quite a bit less clearance than the stock arms, but only slightly less clearance than the SPC UCAs.

All sliding balljoint UCAs drastically reduce available suspension travel, which is why this thread was created in the first place...

Benbuilt4u

all true information!

98civdx

Considerbly less, my friend destroyed his sk2 arm, buy hitting the shock tower.

meb58

If the ball joint design is close to the stock arrangement then there should be little suspesnion travel worries. If the UCA is hitting the uni-body then the ball joint stud is too long or the car is too low. K-Mac made one a few years ago that had a very long ball joint stud...I still don't know why. At normal ride height with stock spring the UCA could contact the uni-body.

usdm_ED7

thanks for the replies. i wish i saw this thread before i bought them. oh well its ok they'll be going up for sale once i install my stock arms.

98civdx

it's not that they are bad, just if your slammed.
camber kits serve a good purpose, they arent a waste of money.
People just dont understand, you cannot be slammed and have a camber kit, without clearence problems.

PatrickGSR94

iTrader: (1)

I haven't been on this thread for awhile, but let me add this.

Since I had ALL my suspension bushings replaced with new HardRace rubber bushings earlier this year, I have seen noticeably less tire wear running about -2 camber in front, toe set to zero. I was getting some inner wear before, even with toe set to zero, much of which I attribute to the original crap bushings with 280K+ miles on them.

<-- still lowered, still no camber kits, still have decent tire wear. Car has been lowered for nearly 200K miles now, always with stock UCA's, and I have ZERO shock tower dents.