Paprika

Need to upgrade suspension. Thinking about getting some Eibach Pro-Kit Springs since the name is well know and their drop is minimal. But I do not know what kind of Warranty is offered w/ them. Could someone fill me in?

-I am not looking to 'drop' the car much if it all. 2" at the most.w
-I want my rear end to remain higher than the front, even when the car is loaded down, or at least evenly level.
-I want reduced body roll; My current setup, whatever it is, is gay. I roll like a dog when I make turns.
-I need reliability. After I install this setup, I absolutely cannot afford to have to remove it for any reason. This is my only car.
-I want a Lifetime Warranty.. if thats even possible, lol.

Also, out of curiosity, You ever seen that Volkswagen Jetta commercial where the guy is w/ the car salesmen test driving the car and he shows him how the Jetta's suspension 'sticks' to the roads and pulls him thru turns? What equipment would afford me that performance?

Shoot some solid ideas at me please.

Lo-Buck EF

i dont know what the warranty is on eibach springs. you can email them and find out. as for shocks, get some koni sports. the kyb agx and tokico illumina have lifetime warranty but they dont have enough compression dampening in my opinion for the lower springs
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Paprika &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Also, out of curiosity, You ever seen that Volkswagen Jetta commercial where the guy is w/ the car salesmen test driving the car and he shows him how the Jetta's suspension 'sticks' to the roads and pulls him thru turns? What equipment would afford me that performance?

Shoot some solid ideas at me please.</TD></TR></TABLE>

any fwd car will theoritacally pull through the corner.....till it looses grip

Paprika

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lo-Buck EF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i dont know what the warranty is on eibach springs. you can email them and find out. as for shocks, get some koni sports. the kyb agx and tokico illumina have lifetime warranty but they dont have enough compression dampening in my opinion for the lower springs


any fwd car will theoritacally pull through the corner.....till it looses grip</TD></TR></TABLE>
I dunno what he said exactly, but he said something to the effect it pulls or something bout the corner that was good.

I don't think I want any shocks I'm going to need to do un-nessesary work to install. I heard that for the koni sports (yellows right?) they have to put the brake line holder thing on and stuff like that, which is un-nessesary on other shocks?

Lo-Buck EF

my coilovers (and most other brands) dont have the brake line holder. nothing a zip tie wont cure.
you might also want to look into swaybars. you can get rit of some roll w/o increasing ride harshness with a set of swaybars.

Paprika

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lo-Buck EF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">my coilovers (and most other brands) dont have the brake line holder. nothing a zip tie wont cure.
you might also want to look into swaybars. you can get rit of some roll w/o increasing ride harshness with a set of swaybars. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes, well aware of them. I remember back when I was considering those for my car but then I realised that it was the shocks and springs that were currently on the car that were the major problem and they needed to be taken care of first because it's much more to it than the body roll.

Moreover, from what i've seen, the sway bars shipped cost as much as a complete set of shocks. ugh!

Lo-Buck EF

[QUOTE=Paprika] it's much more to it than the body roll.
QUOTE] ah, ok. well first, figure out how much you are looking to spend. then buy the best parts for your money. alot of pwople are buying the omnipower coilovers these days and fr teh money there not bad. you could also check out ebay for used parts (springs, shocks, ect) that have lifetime warranties. so yo could sent them back to be rebuilt, replaced, ect. i dont know what your looking to spend, but those are a few options.

Paprika

Well... I know this may sound like I am asking for too much but I'd like to keep it at or under $500. I know it can be done, I just need to look around. Thanks for the advice Lo-Buck. I can go gather up some potential products now.

Lo-Buck EF

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Paprika &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'd like to keep it at or under $500. I know it can be done, I just need to look around. Thanks for the advice Lo-Buck. I can go gather up some potential products now.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

fireant

my personal opinion. Get a rear sway bar now, and stick it on there. You'll see a big improvement in the body roll dept, and it would hold you while you shop (hard) for a good setup for $500.

Also, look in the Autox/RoadRace forum at the top few threads for the Used Spring For Sale/Trade thread. You can find some good deals on some nice springs there that were not quite stiff enough for the road-race junkies' tastes.

You can occasionally find good deals on shocks there too. If you are forced to get something other than Koni Yellows, dont go above 400lbs for the springs...(they start to get kina harsh at that point anyways)...that will help the shocks last longer.

rapid_roy

A lifetime warranty on springs? It's a piece of wire, what could possibly go wrong? Your biggest enemy in Ohio will be rust I would imagine, I've got 3 years on Comptech springs now and they look pretty damn nasty but they still hold the car up.

A rear swabar would be your best bet right now if you want to reduce body roll, then follow up with good shocks and then another set of springs with rates of your choosing. Then get an LSD, then you can cackle like that choad in the VW commercial while your car pulls through the corners.

Marauder

Eibach springs = 1 million mile warranty

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

If your looking for a very specific drop, you should look into Ground Controls coilovers. They use Eibach springs (1 million mile guarantee), and their hardware is also guaranteed for life (even if you race). The best part is that you can order them in any spring rate you want. If your not sure about what rates are good for you, just call 'em and let them know what you want from your car, and what you will be using if for. They really understand Hondas, and can get you a custom setup for your needs (at no additional cost)...

Their setup held me over in the suspension department for about 4 years. I more recently added some sway bars & koni sports, and my OEM shocks were still holding together.

Paprika

Well, I am not trying to avoid your advice, but it still seems like my springs are too soft. Like I said, it's more than the body roll. It's how the car sags when people are in it and such. If I get new springs that lower the car a bit the stiffness and the lowering of the car will both help reduce roll and I can from there go on the get sway bars if the roll is still too much for me.

But yeah, from driving the car, I really think it's the springs that are the problem, and the shocks can't be helping too much either if they let the springs do what they do, which I why I am planning to replace those components rather than buy sway bars at this time. My inital idea after I identified the problem and set out to find a solution was to get sway bars like you all are telling me, but then I thought better of them for there is more to it than just the sway.

I'll have to think it about it all more though.

Dave421

springs do not prevent body roll. Dampers prevent body roll . Body roll is only affected by springs due to the center of gravity being lower. Shocks & sway bars directly affect body roll. Shocks will do more for your handling than anything else. Get some Koni Yellows, play with the settings, and then be amazed at the difference. I don't know what you're talking about with them being harder to install or taking more to install them or whatever. They're just like every other shock out there. SOME of them come with a brake line adapter for cars where the brake line bracket was changed mid-way through a model generation but it's nothing more than screwing it on. If I recall correctly, there's a $495 shipped deal going on in the Sponsor's Marketplace Suspension forum here so check it out. Oh yeah, you can also lower your car with the Konis and your stock springs. They have 3-5 settings for the spring perch so it can be lowered without changing springs.

Paprika

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dave421 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">springs do not prevent body roll. Dampers prevent body roll . Body roll is only affected by springs due to the center of gravity being lower. Shocks & sway bars directly affect body roll. Shocks will do more for your handling than anything else. Get some Koni Yellows, play with the settings, and then be amazed at the difference. I don't know what you're talking about with them being harder to install or taking more to install them or whatever. They're just like every other shock out there. SOME of them come with a brake line adapter for cars where the brake line bracket was changed mid-way through a model generation but it's nothing more than screwing it on. If I recall correctly, there's a $495 shipped deal going on in the Sponsor's Marketplace Suspension forum here so check it out. Oh yeah, you can also lower your car with the Konis and your stock springs. They have 3-5 settings for the spring perch so it can be lowered without changing springs.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ok, cool cool. On it's highest perch setting is it at stock level or higher?

Moreover..
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">it will increase your road feel, you will have more stability and control, but you aint gonna cut out much if any body roll or make your car effectively "handle" better as far as your cornering ability goes. You need some stiffer springs to start noticing a huge difference- lower or not.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thats what I've been thinking all along. Now everyone is giving me different advice.


Modified by Paprika at 4:37 AM 3/22/2005

00R101

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dave421 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">springs do not prevent body roll. Dampers prevent body roll . Body roll is only affected by springs due to the center of gravity being lower. Shocks & sway bars directly affect body roll. Shocks will do more for your handling than anything else. Get some Koni Yellows, play with the settings, and then be amazed at the difference. I don't know what you're talking about with them being harder to install or taking more to install them or whatever. They're just like every other shock out there. SOME of them come with a brake line adapter for cars where the brake line bracket was changed mid-way through a model generation but it's nothing more than screwing it on. If I recall correctly, there's a $495 shipped deal going on in the Sponsor's Marketplace Suspension forum here so check it out. Oh yeah, you can also lower your car with the Konis and your stock springs. They have 3-5 settings for the spring perch so it can be lowered without changing springs.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This first part of this post is the most inaccurate I have ever seen in this forum. You are 180 degrees wrong. Shocks don't prevent body roll, springs and sway bars do. Shocks do slow body roll down but once in a steady state corner, the car will roll to what the springs and sway bars let it regardless of whose shocks you have.

Furthermore, the biggest improvement you can make to the handling of your car is tires. After going with good quality tires the next step would be front to rear balance with springs and sway bars. Then buy the shocks you need to control the spring rates you have selected.

regards,
alan

Paprika

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00R101 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

This first part of this post is the most inaccurate I have ever seen in this forum. You are 180 degrees wrong. Shocks don't prevent body roll, springs and sway bars do. Shocks do slow body roll down but once in a steady state corner, the car will roll to what the springs and sway bars let it regardless of whose shocks you have.

Furthermore, the biggest improvement you can make to the handling of your car is tires. After going with good quality tires the next step would be front to rear balance with springs and sway bars. Then buy the shocks you need to control the spring rates you have selected.

regards,
alan</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think I am right with my umm.. theory! So I have to keep looking around.

nonsense

For your budget I would go with some KYB AGX shocks and Eibach Pro-Kit springs.

Paprika

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nonsense &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For your budget I would go with some KYB AGX shocks and Eibach Pro-Kit springs. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Thats actually what i was thinking initally.

eMpAtHy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Marauder &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Eibach springs = 1 million mile warranty</TD></TR></TABLE>

that's it?? geez, i'd expect atleast a million and one.

if u want coilovers, you cant go wrong with ground control

Dave421

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00R101 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

This first part of this post is the most inaccurate I have ever seen in this forum. You are 180 degrees wrong. Shocks don't prevent body roll, springs and sway bars do. Shocks do slow body roll down but once in a steady state corner, the car will roll to what the springs and sway bars let it regardless of whose shocks you have.

Furthermore, the biggest improvement you can make to the handling of your car is tires. After going with good quality tires the next step would be front to rear balance with springs and sway bars. Then buy the shocks you need to control the spring rates you have selected.

regards,
alan</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ok, springs do nothing to prevent the body from leaning. So, you go through a corner & your stiffer springs keep the outside from compressing. Unfortunately, they don't keep the inside from rising. Springs only control compression. Now, take a set of good shocks and they will control the body motions and control the roll. Granted that in a sweeper, the body will still roll but it is controlled. The biggest problem with body roll normally is it's quick & "violent" tendencies through normal curves. That's gone with good shocks. So I apologize that I wasn't perfectly clear in what I said but 180 degrees wrong is incorrect. Swaybars are the only thing that will truly limit body roll completely. I do agree with you 100% on the tires.

nonsense

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dave421 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ok, springs do nothing to prevent the body from leaning. So, you go through a corner & your stiffer springs keep the outside from compressing. Unfortunately, they don't keep the inside from rising. Springs only control compression. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm having a hard time with your theory. If one side doesn't compress in the turn how is it possible for the other side to rise? Sure, low spring rates and high anti-roll bar rates will stop body roll, but high spring rates will do that as well. I get the same amount of body roll with my Koni's turnd to full soft as I do with them on full stiff. The only thing that changes is the time it takes to get to that peak body roll. Sometimes the turn is over before the total body roll has been rached, therefor giving the effect of less body roll, but in a steady state turn (long sweeper) the body roll is the same.

Dave421

The body will rise regardless. And what you said about the time it takes is exactly what I was saying. Shocks take the abruptness out of the body roll.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nonsense &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I get the same amount of body roll with my Koni's turnd to full soft as I do with them on full stiff. The only thing that changes is the time it takes to get to that peak body roll. </TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dave421 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Now, take a set of good shocks and they will control the body motions and control the roll. Granted that in a sweeper, the body will still roll but it is controlled. The biggest problem with body roll normally is it's quick & "violent" tendencies through normal curves. </TD></TR></TABLE>

By slowing down the body roll, it's not violent and is much more controllable.

As for the springs not reducing body roll at all, look at the pic below:


The pass. side of his car is where it always is (this is a friend's car). However, I think it's plainly obvious that the car is not level. Watching his car at this autocross, it was obvious how much body roll he had and how violent it was compared to other cars. His car is completely stock suspension except for some race springs (H&R, sprint, I can't remember what exactly).

I don't know if I'm not saying it correctly or what. Basically, shocks do more for your handling than springs do. You can take an awesome set of springs but if the shocks aren't there to control them, then you have nothing. Is tihs making sense yet?

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

Springs & Sway Bars DIRECTLY dictate the amount of body roll you will experience.

Shocks ONLY Control the Body roll that is allowed by the springs & sway bars.

I don't understand how you can say body roll doesn't have anything to do with your springs. If you use higher spring rates, everybody knows that it lessens the burden on the sway bars. This is why race cars run sewer pipe sized sway bars with their 1000+ lb/in springs. Just because your damper setting have an effect on your vehicles body roll, doesn't mean that the springs have nothing to do with it (that's just ignorant).

You guys are arguing over semantics here...

nonsense

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dave421 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Watching his car at this autocross, it was obvious how much body roll he had and how violent it was compared to other cars. His car is completely stock suspension except for some race springs (H&R, sprint, I can't remember what exactly). </TD></TR></TABLE>

I can't see the pic, but based on your description then I'm right. Your friend has relatively low spring rates and it has lots of body roll. If he either A) increases the spring rates, or B) adds anti-roll (sway) bars the body roll will be reduced. If he just adds shocks you can dial out a little bit of initial body roll, but if he stays in a steady state turn (i.e. going around a skidpad at a set MPH), then the body roll will be the same.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dave421 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't know if I'm not saying it correctly or what. Basically, shocks do more for your handling than springs do. You can take an awesome set of springs but if the shocks aren't there to control them, then you have nothing. Is tihs making sense yet?</TD></TR></TABLE>

That is true, but it has nothing to do with body roll. I think you're getting suspension movement and body roll confused. Better shocks will control how fast or slow the suspension reacts to change, springs and sway bars will control how much movement is going to happen.

Think of it this way. Your theoretical car has 1000 lbs of weight transfered onto the outside front wheel while in a turn. If you have a 250 in/lb spring it will compress the spring 4" or until the suspension binds (bump stop, shock bottoms out, whatever). Now change that to a 500 in/lb spring and you can only compress it 2", therefore less body roll. When you add a swaybar that, lets say, has a 200 in/lb wheel rate it will only compress 1.43" (600 in.lb of total wheel rate)

It doesn't matter if you have Konis, Motons, or stock shocks, the body will roll until the force put on the spring (be it just a spring or a spring and sway combo) is at the limit of that spring at that compression height.

What a good shock compared to a bad shock will do is better control how fast or slow the car rolls over and how it reacts to the changes in road surface. This will make the car handle much better even if the body roll is the same.