SlowB16

You might be right but I do think that my brake pedal is lower than normal (my brakes aren't soft; the brake pedal just sits low and gets even lower when compressed; it is about even with the gas pedal at rest). I just don't see how it would be possible to heel toe when the brake is 2" lower than the gas when compressed.

Someone mentioned being tall and being comfortable in del sol seats. I can tell you that my legs are long enough that I can drive with my thighs (as in my thighs rest on the wheel if I don't bend y legs to the side away from the wheel) with del sol seats AND I have a quick release and a deep dish wheel. Wheel spacing isn't the problem and stock seats don't go back far enough for me. I'm going the throw the race seat back in to see if the extra leg room helps.




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SlowB16

Based on everyone's comments I'm going to add a spacer to the brake pedal, get some new pedals to bring the pedals closer together, put the race seat in and give it lots of practice.


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914Racer

Look at upgrading the size of the master cylinder. That way the pedal doesn't have to travel as far to generate the same amount of fluid flow. I can tell you there is a difference between the 15/16 master and the 1in Master on my car. Feels totally different. Pedal travel is much less now and the brakes actually feel good on this car (91 CRX with ITR calipers and rotors up front. )

Have you checked the accelerator cable to make sure its not messed up. See if the pedal can be pulled back to a different position by tightening the cable. Bend the pedal if you have to. The gas pedal is surprisingly flexible. Move it where ever you need it.

Check the adjustment on the rear brakes (if they are drums). This will help keep the pedal higher off the floor under engagement.

SCoupe 5sp

You are happy and dead on correct. My head is spinning a little after reading about all the variables discussed: Seat height, steering wheel, leaning forward, backward.

I don't really find that any of that changes it for me.

For the record, the name should be "ball of foot and nudge" (ball of foot on brake and nudge the throttle by sliding any part of your foot that can blip the throttle). But god dammit, it's called heel and toe ????!!!! For real, that's never going to happen. My toe(s) have little to do with it ever.

But "heel/toe is what gets people to go friggin nuts attempting to do it.

I'm just nudging the peddle with the side or other part of the foot. If you can reach the peddles when you are driving the rest of the time than it is perfect. I can do it multiple ways and often do. I just need the ball of my foot reasonably steady on the brake peddle to use some other part of my same foot to bump the throttle peddle to blip the engine.

Be careful not to over analyze this. Its a simple nudge of an adjacent peddle. I have never, not once, found a stick shift that I could not quickly make a throttle blip with with my size 9 foot.

I get that large feet or if your peddles are mechanically broken or in need of repair (you've got problems just showing up). But for anyone size 7 to 10, it is something that you can tweak and get right.

SlowB16

It's always been easy to do on my other cars by using the ball of my foot only (left to brake and right to throttle). However, with the way my pedals are currently positioned my only option is to blip the throttle with my heel. It isn't a slide either; I have to lift my heel up a couple inches and slide it over.


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STN_Pat

The lower the brake pedal, the easier, imo.

This is clearly is a technical issue.

Practice all the time, it will become perfect. Don't change anything yet.

mattbatson

the trick is to not alter the brake pressure while doing the blip

SlowB16

The lower the brake pedal the easier? This doesn't make any sense. If the brake is lower than the gas you have to lift your foot up and over to the gas instead of being able to slide it over. I figure the more you have to anipulate your foot, as opposed to simply sliding it over, the more dangerous it becomes.

It doesn't seem like people are grasping the problem. Prior to adding a 3/4" spacer to the brake pedal before last weekend's track day, the brake pedal was simply too low to have any chance of getting any portion of my right foot on the gas under heavy braking. After adding the spacer the problem is solved. It wasn't a matter of practicing more, it was a matter of bringing the brake pedal up so it is almost even (it's still slightly lower but it's now manageable) with the gas pedal.

Being able to heel toe made this my most enjoyable event so far. Definitely improved more than I have at any other event.

SlowB16

This is definitelya work in pprogress. I think I'll be pretty good after a couple more events.

STN_Pat

You can almost use your heel to blip the throttle.

You clearly don't get a big part of it and sadly, there is no other way to learn than to practice.

Some day you'll master is so deeply, you'll do it in any car and laugh at how you struggled.

mattbatson

when you say you improved more than any other event, do you mean your lap times were faster, or that your heel and toe was more improved?

I'm just wondering, as I never did do the heel and toe thing after moving to relatively modern cars with synchro's in the gear box...didn't seem to slow me down much either...

Wanderer.

I am glad you figured something out that worked for you SlowB16

Where do the synchros come into play in a heel toe braking situation? How do you downshift in braking zone? Or do you just brake, turn, downshift, power out?

I ask because I really just know how I do it out of habit so i'm curious how other people do it.

mattbatson

I just brake, downshift, and turn in

just like everyone else I guess...


this was in my 09 civic si...

in my sig is a quick vid in a 89 Suzuki swift gti at sebring...

nothing special or different in my technique that I know of

SlowB16

I don't get a big part of it? I absolutely understand the concept and, as I said in my first post which you haven't read clearly, I've been able to do it in all my other cars because of the way the pedals lined up. Now that the pedals in my honda line up I'm able to do it pretty well. If you want to add something constructive please do, but stop filling this thread with posts telling me that I don't know what I'm doing or talking about. Also, your comment about the lower the brake pedal the better makes no sense at all.

You seem to think the only way to blip the throttle is with your heel. News flash, there are lots of people who do it with the ***** of their foot. That's how I do it and that's how I'll continue to do it. There isn't only way way to do things.

SlowB16

This was the first event with the honda where I've been able to heel-toe at all. Just having the ability to do it allowed me to not get so distracted and frustrated trying to downshift. I was a lot smoother into and through the corners which in turn allowed me to carry a lot more speed. It seemed like before corner entries were erratic; some would be ok but some would be terrible, and the bad ones would really slow the next couple sections down. Now that they're more consistent it seems like I'm able to be smoother and faster through the track. It was just a lot more fun.

mattbatson

any video?

SlowB16

No I'm an idiot and forgot to take any!

Here is a video from my first event with the car if you're interested. I think I'm quite a bit better now but any constructive criticism is appreciated as it may still apply.

MBellRacing

There are many ways to heel-toe. The problem with the side of the foot roll is that it only works in cars with close pedals. When you hop in some cars like Mitsu Evos or most things made by the Brits, you'll notice you'll have to use your heel to kind of "kick" the throttle for a blip. I switch back and forth-- whatever gives me the most even brake pressure. Learn what you want, but know that the more range you get out of your sideways heel-toe movement, the less likely you'll get tripped up when you drive a different car.

SCoupe 5sp

Ayrton Senna's "Heel-and-Toe" Acura NSX

Or better, Ayrton Senna's toe and roll...

STN_Pat

I am not gonna argue with you.

I've heard what you are saying from hundreds of people I taught, plus they usually react exactly like you do : they ask for help, they get it but don't want to internalize it as a natural phenomenom rather than a definite technic, and then blame the people trying to help for their failure. Same old tape, really.

Persisting on using a specific unfitted technic is the exact opposite of what you have to do. You have to adapt the way you do it to the car specifics, not the other way around. If it works fine and give good brake control, forget how your feet are positioned. Just go that route, no matter how JDM or not it is. Hell, I can't even tell how I place my feet doing it; one thing I know for sure is that i'll heel-toe any car, any time, under any condition, and you won't hear me blaming the pedal or anything else than my skill-set.

Hey after all, don't take what Mr. Mat Bell just said; he's just on TV racing cars and earning his life that way. Just stay frustrated and work the wrong way what millions of people have done before you.

Bye.

SlowB16

I will take his advice: "there are many ways to heel-toe." Look, I'm not trying to be a pro; I just want to do it well enough where I can go reasonably fast and have a good time.

miamirice

There is nothing wrong with seeking the most comfortable set up for YOU. You have been given a number of suggestions including checking out your MC. You possibly can up size without changing the brake booster and you will gain some brake pedal height. I think you are trying to achieve a set up which allows a brake pedal to be firm/near threshold braking and NOT be too deep where you are "reaching" for the gas pedal. Just take the suggestions here and work with them.

SlowB16

I have the ex 15/16 MC. Brake pedal feels pretty good but I might go for the 1" integra MC w/ booster in the future.

Pedal firmness wasn't the problem. It was that the brake pedal was below the gas pedal at rest, so when I pressed it, especially pressed it hard at speed on the track, it was well below the gas pedal. After adjusting it using the method someone mentioned earlier and adding a spacer it's better. Not perfect but better.

Outrun

I drove an ITR and it was easy to heel/toe with the stock pedals. The brake pedal when depressed was firm and short and about level with the throttle pedal.

On my Civic the pedals are the exact size and shape as the ITR but the brake pedal goes further and deeper and doesn't seem as firm. I actually blip the throttle by rolling my foot so that the right side of my foot just below the lace eyelets is the part that's touching the throttle pedal. I ended up using RAZO carbon fiber-look pedal covers.

dbang003

How do you handle going from 5th to 3rd? 5-4 release clutch then 4-3 release clutch? Or 5-4-3 and only releasing the clutch pedal after you're in 3rd? I just ran my first track session and kept the car in 4th all day so I could focus on line, braking, etc. but on the straight it was pretty much impossible to not shift into 5th. So I basically just did as you do, but down the road it'd be faster to be in 3rd out of that particular turn. I'll practice blipping the throttle but it's a work in progress.

OP. Any updates over the last month or so?