blackeg

See I was also going back and forth between the 4730 and itr cams and think im gonna use itr. The reason I picked itr is compatability with stock itr valvetrain making it easier on the timing belt and such. The lift of the 4730s is too much for stock valvetrain

DazeMS

4730's should work ok with ITR springs etc.. but I have the standard crower kit, which are the same springs as in the race kit.. just diff. retainers. THe retainers in the standard kit are plenty strong, its just not as light as the race ti retainers. Which crower states is only like 4 grams diff. between the two kits overall. I dont know what the diff. is between each individual retainer..

EDIT::: I will be going in on Thursday the 4th in the AM and by the end of the day, I will have everything done and dynoed. Only thing not being done is the head swap and the fuel rail.. Will have the injectors swapped though..

DazeMS

Arg... I just swapped over to the omni power Tb ..
several things I had issues with. I had to rig a diff bracket for throttle cable. pfft..
#2 skunk says the tb opening on their manifold is 70mm. Err WRONG! its more like 65mm.. the 68mm throttle body matches almost perfectly.
#3 I now have a code 7.. tps. code.. @$&*@*&* car idles at like 2000rpm. I managed to adjust of from 3000rpm.. lol.. soooooo. wtf. never had an issue with this how prior. its.factory. with 188k miles on it.

DazeMS

Mods dynoed are as follows

Old School AEM CaI
Omni power 68mm TB
Older series Skunk Proseries IM( it has smaller runners and ports)
STOCK gsr Injectors on AEM rail and FPR
Edelbrock 4730 Camshafts
BCrower SS dual spring kit ( springs are the same as race and are overkill at 312lbs)
JDM ITR Ebay Knock off Header with 2.5'' collector
Magnaflow 2.5'' Converter
Yonaka 60mm N1 Style exhaust (2.25ID)

the 177hp was the motor with cams thrown in untuned.. The 185 is after the tune.
vtec engagement changed from 5300 to 4800.
My tuner thinks ITR's would have made more rpm/hp , but I feel the peak numbers do not make up for the lack of midrange that this setup has. We compared graphs of an ITR with similar mods and I made more torque and HP from 4-6500 and evened out at 6500 were the itr cared till 8800 where it made 5hp more over 750rpm, still less torque.. shrug.

Ultimately, the Intake manifold and header are hurting the top end IF I wanted more rpm. If I did this, I would have hit 190+ no problem, but lost torque says the tuner..

jimmysxxl

There is no way the Header and Intake manifold is hurting you there. There is something fishy about that Graphs and he could mess around with vtec engagement more. What are the specs on that cam ? Overlap ?

DazeMS

What sounds"fishy"... these are not the only runs I made. I had a plot with 189.. but that plot was choppy as all hell. the specs for the cams are listed on page 1. The header is a factory itr knock off design and I'm running a cat.. lol don't assume things.

blackeg

hey man glad you had the chance to get on the dyno and get some tune going.

overall its what i thought it would do. i guess i would have expected it to keep making power a bit higher in the rpm range but who really wants to rev to 9000 to make power all the time. im liking the tq its making in vtec. good stuff almost 140ft/lbs. as for it dropping off, did your tuner bump a few more degrees timing up there?
about that dip between 4500 and 5000. its not really a dip, its just the other side of the hump that those aem cai's produce due to resonance to my understanding. getting up to 125tq is almost a bonus at 4000 something rpm, many setups i see graphs of hold like 110-115 pretty linearly up to vtec engangement.

ive been doing crazy research on this stuff recently and one thing i look for is what rpm the graph makes over 150hp at. seems like a fair amount of cams on a 1.8l especially with compression between 10 and 11:1 dont make 150 till well into the 6000 range. looks like you have about 1000 rpm on them in that aspect.

just a few questions on how it ended up.

- what were the final timing settings (both ignition and cam gear)
- what kind of fuel pressure did you use to not run the stock injectors way up in duty cycle
- how was the idle on the cams before the tune? think it would idle like not total crap on a stock ecu?

DDTECH

I'm at work, so pics dont work

Question;
1) were the gears moved?
2) Total timing on the motor? How about AFR?
3) Its not always about peak numbers , however i do think edlebrock was getting rid of these cams for a reason.. How does the car feel on the street?? Do you have a set of itrs to do a comparsion to?

Natural Aspirations

The dip between 4.5-5 shows that something odd is going on with the header/intake. If I am looking at it correctly that dip is there regardless of vtec engagement.

It could just be a resonance bump below that from your intake....

I'm sure it goes unsaid but the skinny exhaust isn't helping you much.

gREY-DC2

bump

I'm on the same mission with my DD GSR. I'll be rebuilding my head soon, glad I ran into your thread. I got something to follow, hopefully I can open a thread on my build this summer.

DazeMS

#1 not sure , we were messing around with the cams a few different times. I have to email him to see what the exact numbers are.
#2 fuel pressure is 46psi
#3 idle seems to be 900-950rpm
#4 I dont think the idle would be that bad on a stock ecu. Untuned it was around 1000-1100 rpm, but any set of cams should really be tuned. Only real way to match them to your setup.

DazeMS

#1 gears were moved a few different ways. I checked what we went with and I believe they seemed best at 0.0. As we would gain HP but screw up how the torque curve ran. the cams seem to have shifted the whole band to the left.
#2 I have to get ahold of my tuner for the timing.. not sure about the AFR's either. I was there all freakin day from 11am to 930pm and I forgot to get as much info as i could.
#3 The car feels and pulls really smooth and consistent till redline Power OBVIOUSLY drops after 8200 though. The car deff moves around easly in traffic. Alot better then before. vtec crossover is super smooth, without that sudden jolt , which you can see changing the crossover from 5300 to 4800 made a huge diff. No , I dont have a set of ITR's to compare. Edelbrock got rid of them because they came late in the game. By the time they came out, the integra wasnt even being made anymore.. lol

DazeMS

DING DING DING..
The header is just an ITR replica.. Stock design , so it will have an issue to a point. The Skunk manifold I have is the OLDER proseries which is basically a b16 manifold.. the runners are smaller then the newer pro series as well as the ports.. The oldschool AEM CAI from back in the day was made to match the VE of the stock intake plenum and thats why the dip is the way it is. I can mess around with changing intakes out etc.. which SHOULD pick up power in the upper rpms. The exhaust I dont feel is as big of an issue.. The CAT however I feel is a bigger issue, but I need it for emissions.. lol

jimmysxxl

It Seemed fishy to me because of the 7% change in humidity 6degrees in temperature but you had an 8hour window so it doesnt matter. How did the graph look when you retarded exhaust ?

DazeMS

it didnt really change much. the torque curve lost some here and gained overall 1 ftlbs peak. It wasnt smooth. That pass netted 187hp. but I also lost power in lower rpms. Like I said, I was there all day. We advanced and retarded the cams on both banks several diff ways. Going for peak numbers hurt the curve overall, which is why I went with 185whp/138ftlbs.. the curve was a lot smoother overall and made more of an impact. I had to compromise one way or the other. I am happy regardless. I have less compression when compared to an ITR with same mods and I netted 5-11 hp less but 4-8ftlbs MORE longer.. I cant complain for the mods. Not only that, But similar type r graphs we compared it too had nothing on me from 3500-6000.. shrug.

Natural Aspirations

If I were to make an assumption it would be that these cams were developed in coordination with the performer manifold which has similar characteristics.

DazeMS

I feel they had used atleast 1 of the manifolds they designed. I know edelbrock at one point had these cams in the turbo kit as an option with the victor manifold.. They had a couple options, until I believe they decided to just offer a complete kit as 1 package. I wonder if I could get any real info on these cams in how they tested them... hhhrrrmmmm.. prob. not. their tech support is horrible.

anyway.. here are the answers to the questions previously asked

The cams are at -.5 -.5. Afrs are 12.3 in high cam.

base timing set at 16.5 btdc.

DDTECH

Made best power at 12.3 afr?.. seems a bit rich...
The jumpy graph is either due to a bad ign system or the dyno isnt grounded good.
The graph movement wise looks good. Thats decent power for the mods you have.. run it at the track amd

DazeMS

the graph isnt smoothed.. when smoothed it read 186 to 188 lol This was on 87 octane gas.. btdubs, steven pearson says hi.. ;-)

Salami

The smoothing shown on the sheet is at zero. Doesn't this affect the smoothness of the graph also?






Why 87 versus 93?

DazeMS

it wasnt really a choice , thats what I had in it. How much of a diff. would 93 or 91 make? Never really thought about it till now.

I think I am going to go with the victor x manifold. Im not really liking the pro series.

blackeg

it would make a pretty big difference. not sure exactly how much hp, but you would be able to run a few more degrees of ignition timing and perhaps a bit leaner than 12.3:1.


do the performer x manifold if you go edelbrock, dont do the victor x its design isnt best for smaller displacement with lower compression n/a motors

DazeMS

I found the Victor x for cheap..(265$ shipped).. this is what the tuner recommended.. that and a bmc.. hmmmm

jimmysxxl

I've also been recommended from various Honda owners and various technicians here in Greece to go for the VictorX. But my research online shows the VicX to drop HP in mild setups like yours and mine.

DDTECH

The performerX is a better manifold for 1.8 setups. I would also look into the future, for a better set of cams.
The power is respectable, but more can be had.