rice_classic

For starters it might be a good idea have a thread about race only pads. Sure there's lots of brake pad threads but the majority are based around HPDE's or "what can I drive to track" type. If you have questions, comments or complaints about a street pad, autox pad, or HPDE pad, this thread is not for you.

Also I wanted to stop hi-jacking known's bearing thread.

Did you try a new pad compound for the race car recently?
What compound do you totally rely on?
What compound/brand has failed you or caused other parts of the car to fail?
What is your feedback regarding favorite compound; size of vehicle, heat, modulation, wear rate, rotor wear, bedding etc etc.?

So on and so forth.


And Dirty: I know you hate redundant threads so this is my up front apology

rice_classic

I wanted to address markertoo from the bearing repacking thread where I was bitching about DTC's (which perform great, until they don't).

DTC60 as the 70 is not available for my car. I have an ITA CRX with the D373 backing plate caliper (90-91). The pad that failed was purchased in the late summer of 2011 and raced on at the end of August in Canada.

Here's my brake down from last year on what I ran:

Last season I raced on:
Cobalt XR1 and 2
PFC 83's
ST43's
Hawk DTC60's

Cobalt: Every time I ordered pads it took them like 8 weeks to get them too me so I finally decided they simply didn't want my money anymore. The XR pads were brilliant, absolutely brilliant. They did wear a bit fast for their cost though.

PFC 83's: Outstanding pad! However, I didn't get that much time on them because my cheap *** China rotors kept cracking. I felt they generated too much heat but now realize it's crappy rotor quality. I will be putting these on again this season and I bought their older brother the PFC 80's as well.

Raybestos ST43: How do I say this?... Everything else attached to your braking system will fail before these do. The problem I had, and 1 other I race with had, is that they struggle with laying down an even transfer layer and if you are lucky enough to get them to do so they will undo it during the race! They tried to shake the steering right out of my hands. I actually thought something in my car was broken. This year I bought the ST42 which isn't as aggressive. I found it's absolutely magnificent and I look forward to buying another set. The ST42 might be my "go-to" pad in 2012.

Hawk DTC 60: Excellent pad. I always had an even transfer layer and they performed well on all our tracks with good straights. On our 1 track that is a bit harder on brakes these pads gave up FAST. I'm not talking anything catastrophic like the delam, but fading and glazing. My recommendation is that if you're going to a track that's hard on brakes don't take these, or do but know that I'm going to pass you in the braking zone. I did have 1 set delaminate before I ever got to "beat" on it. More than 1/2 it's life left and I never even raced on it (practice and qual) and heard the rattling from the caliper as I was rolling into my paddock.

DTC60:





So for 2012 my pad lineup is:
1: Finish off last set of DTC60's
2: Raybestos ST42
3: PFC 80's and maybe 83's depending on how the 80's perform.

I'm also switching from the el-cheapo rotors to the Centric 120 series and I've upgraded and re-routed my brake ducting.

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

I like this... well thought out.. Keep it going. Subscribed!

FYI Centric= Stoptech

markertoo

I have used the PFC 80s and 83s, but a LONG time ago. I have been doing track days and road racing for a while, and I believe that the PFC is one of the best pads out there. It is just a huge tragedy that they stopped the developement of new car shapes in the mid-'90s. I found the 80s much easier to use, as the 83s were very hard to un-lock once the wheel locked up. You pretty much had to get right off of the pedal.

I won't blow my own horn, but I have been around autocrossing, then track days/HPDE, and then pro road racing since about the mid-80's. I only do track days these days, but I do officiate for a road race series these days. I also sell parts as a living. Oh, and btw, I LIVE in Canada! What track did you run?

Regarding rotors, yes, the Centrics = the lower levels of StopTech. I am also inquiring about 2-piece rotor replacements from another supplier, in the stock sizes.

Yes, GREAT post, and of use to read. I have to admit that I have been a lurker for years here on H-T, and rarely found any section to be of much use. But, the level of discussion, and general knowledge in the Road Racing/Autocross forum makes it worth responding to some threads. I cannot say the same of the majority of the other forums.

Btw, I will see what I can find out about your de-lamination issue.

skylinecx1212

PFC IS THE BEST!

rice_classic

PacNW. So my Canadian track would be Mission. It's a very small track, lined by cement walls and no significant straight. It was a double race weekend and I went through 3 sets of pads, 6 rotors, and 1 caliper.

Here's me at Mission Raceways:


edit: I just want to add that I'm 30lbs lighter since that photo was taken


As for the Centric brand 120 series rotors vs the El-Cheapo China rotors:

Centric on top:



It's quite clear to see the difference in quality especially when you view the veins up close.

descartesfool

I have run multiple sets of DTC 60's and 70's on two cars, one turbo ITR with 301.4 WHP and the other one with 480 BHP, so brake heat is a major issue for me. I never had a problem with these pads, and I just keep buying more. Both cars have a front axle so getting proper cooling is rather difficult. On the lower power car I run various rotors, which are often in need of replacement from cracking. On the higher power car, I run PFC rotors which are the best rotors I have ever tried. Been on them 2 years and they are still usable. Tons of crazing but no cracks. I never thought there could be such a difference in rotor metallurgy, but the PFC's convinced me otherwise. I have never had a Hawk pad delaminate, and that includes Hawk blues I first started to run, and then HT-10's, and also HP Plus on a road car. The DTC series leaves a beautiful blue layer on the disk, and no deposits to speak of that can cause shaking and vibration.

Other pads I have had great success with are the Pagid yellows, endurance pad, either RS19 or RS29. Those were the longest lasting pad for me, and I also ran them in more than one car. No negatives on those except price. You can just keep pounding and pounding on them and they last.

I have tried many other pads including Cobalt (same poor availability) and Carbotech XP8's, 10's and 12's which I felt all wore out too fast, so not buying any more of those. Others are Project Mu 900 series which were too grabby. I am also from Canada and drive on some tracks which are fast and very easy on brakes like Mosport, and others that are much harder on brakes like Mont Tremblant and the Glen. Brakes are a constant issue for me due to high power and thus straight-line speed you have to scrub off, so I have tried and used up tons of pads. For now, nothing beats performance, durability, price and availability of the Hawk DTC series.

Derek128

lol awesome..........
rice_classic do you know whats other guys using at Mission?

Mission is the only track I can go these 2~3 years

markertoo

On a side note, Hawk came up with a system to create a better bond between the backing plate and the friction material, and it was basically a series of little fingers that were softer than a rotor would be, and they projected up into the pad material. All DTC pads were going to move to this system, but the older stock ones did not have them.

I have also personally bent backing plates, but that was early in my driving time, and I eventually learned to be more gentle on the pedal.

I too have used he Pagid RS-19s, 29s, and a few other compounds. The 19s and 29s are incredibly gentle on rotors, and both pads and rotors last a long time. Just don't expect them to be cheap.

I actually like Hawk Blues. As a race pad, easy to use, and not too many bad characteristics. I have not used any DTC series pad yet.

I have run at Tremblant, Mosport, and Shannonville, but the places that are really hard on brakes are the street circuits - Montreal F1 circuit, Trois Rivieres, Toronto Indy. Lots of walls, no breeze, and usually lots of hard braking zones.

Battosai84

I run the RS-29 and I am very happy with them. Long lasting as they where originally meant to be an endurance pad, and still a good bite.
But as stated they are not cheap at all..

Atmosfear

iTrader: (18)

I favor the Cobalt XR's and I have had the same issue with getting my hands on them.

I now keep a fair amount of them in stock (I have 3 sets right now) and can get them within 2-3 weeks if they are not in stock.

Tim2179

iTrader: (2)

Getting soft? Where is your typical reply about reposting and using the search feature?

Now to address the topic:

I've been using Carbotech RP2s up front and XP8s in the rear for 14h and 25hr endurance races. The fronts typically last 2 races while the rears have shown no real sign of wear. We're having problems with warping front rotors though, so looking for a solution to that currently. We've been using Brembo blanks and noticed slight surface cracks on the rotor after 2 events.

rice_classic

Someone once told me that 9 out of 10 rotors that warp, do so in the paddock. I've also ready from Stoptech that it's rare for rotors to warp and most of the time it's uneven pad deposits (that's been my experience as well).

Under braking does the steering try to rotate side to side or does it just shake?

And Derek: A couple other Honda guys use Hawk Blues or ST43. About 50 of the BMW's use ST43's and often refer to it as the "miracle pad". I, however, do not for reasons stated above and like the ST42 for my application.

I think I've read elsewhere that the delam is not caused by heat. Clearly from my pictures it wasn't. I went through 3 sets before that one that failed and 1 set afterward, all with no problem. Without knowing for sure I can only speculate it's a fluke in the manufacturing process.

I can't see that PFC makes rotors for the CRX so I'm SoL on that and hope these Centric's do the trick.

Someone mentioned the Pagid pads. I can't find the RS19 or 29 in the CRX caliper but you can make S2000 pads fit just fine in the 90-91 CRX caliper and Pagid does make the RS19/29 for the S2000. They are $289 a set so yeah... they better last! Compartively the Raybestos ST42's are $239/set.

Tim2179

iTrader: (2)

That's certainly is a possibility. When we left the last race in October the rotors were fine, and when we went out for the next event in April, they had become warped.

Had a fresh set of pads on. We did about 50 laps in a practice session thinking they would break in, but the warping remained.

More shaking than anything, and only noticeable under HARD breaking from ~100MPH. It seemed like it wanted to pull a bit but only slightly and it wasn't consistent.

rice_classic

How to make S2000 Pads fit in the 90-91 CRX Si Caliper (D373 backing plate)

Below you will see the new S2000 pad (from Cobalt) next to the D373 CRX si brake pad. Very little difference:




So pull out your grinding wheel and here's the metal you need to take off to make them fit:





So you ITA CRX guys who like the 90-91 caliper and struggle to find that good compound you want... just order an S2000 pad and grind away! I learned this when I wanted to run the XR1 vs the XR2 and at the time could only get the XR1 in the D829 plate. In then later learned that for my application and uses, the XR1 performed identical to the XR2 in every category so I then stopped buying the XR1.

rice_classic

That does not sound like warping to me. Identical experience with uneven pad deposits here. I'm doing 110mph into the braking zone and you need to scrub 40mph fast before a quick turn in and when I would get on the brakes the car would dart to either side and shake the wheel violently. Rotors were not warped. It was due to the pad.

Tim2179

iTrader: (2)

We changed rotors and kept the new pads on and the shaking disappeared though.

What is your cure for uneven pad deposits?

known

iTrader: (1)

I will report back after my Roebling double races this weekend, and Daytona double the week after. Hawk DTC 70s

miamirice

Here is a good read. They even discuss how getting your rotors turned wont solve it as you have fundamentally changed the metal composition

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-su...nd-other-myths

SCoupe 5sp

x2 -->excellent article

rice_classic

Bedding/Burnishing them properly.

And this:

rice_classic

Any report back yet?

__________________________________________________ _______

I have an update on the ST42's and the Centric Premium (120 series) rotors.

This last weekend get my brakes a bit a test.

7 Sessions on track = 180 minutes.
Saturday was 2 practice, 2 qual and a 1 hour sprint race.
Sunday was 1 qual and the 30min ITA race.

My pedal never faded, my pads never gave up and rotors looked lovely. All positives can't wait to buy another set. Only one downside, massive amounts of brake dust but oh well.. it's a race car!

Here's the result of 3 hours of track/race time on Centric Premium rotors and ST42's on an ITA CRX:

Rotor Inside:


Rotor outside


Pad Face


Pad life after 3+ hours (also used them during a T&T at another track)



It is worth noting that the wheel bearing was starting to go and was generating a lot of heat but no failures. My Axle nut was unstaking itself though. Here's of a picture of it and the marks where I indexed it. Only moved a little but it kept happening throughout the weekend. Once I got the rotor off and the axle out and spun it, it sounded/felt very rough.

known

iTrader: (1)

2, 30 min races on the Hawk DTC 70s....verdict:

I absolutely loved the feel I had in comparison to HT-10s and any other pad I have had. The track is not a very heavy braking track outside of a couple turns but I was very impressed with the confidence I had and just the overall feel.

The harder I pushed the more brake I had, I even had a pretty close call on a caution with some ahole brake checking me down the straight away and I mashed them without locking with continued control at the limit. I really was impressed and will be buying another set for my downgrade to ITB.

Sorry I forgot to add that I also had 2, 20 min qualifying sessions as well on them.I didnt get to run Daytona because I popped the motor




Rice, time for some repacked bearings!

RED_90TEG

when i was new at driving id use my brakes a lot.... i tend not to use them anymore... just a thought

known

iTrader: (1)

What does that have to do with experiences with pads and rotors?