Calif_Kid

In the HC section in Nasa Forums, post http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=54860 was made asking if the P1 spec side skirts are legal for Honda Challenge. I did a quick search in Honda-Tech, and there are various posts of cars with the side skirts including those running in time trials, but I didn't spot anything about if they're legal for Honda Challenge. There wasn't a response made in Nasa Forums, so hopefully someone here on Honda-Tech has the answer. Thanks!! - Jim

JOE BD-0

kiwi has run those at nats but I believe that they have since been deemed illegal for the series due to the fact that they are in fact an advantage and that "everyone would have to have them"......you can always try and submit a rule request in order to clarify this info.....good luck....

KIWI

So now they are illegal!!! but I'm not surprised!
What happened to Competition? What happened to thinking outside the box? What happened to what racing is all about- Innovation!
Innovation has never been encouraged by the powers that be and the rule makers in both sanctioning bodies seem to have no idea of what they are talking about! They make items legal or illegal on a whim or some misguided idea of what the modification will or will not do!
Thank God for Time Attack! and other forward thinking low key sanctioning bodies.

I remember back in the early days of USTCC I was the first to run a splitter on a Honda.
It was deemed to be legal then, and was loosly incorporated in the rules because no one knew much about splitters and how they really worked.
Many laughed at me thinking it did'nt do anything! Well after a few years and many, many sales of our P1 Splitter kits almost everyone runs one now, or a pretty close copy! Oh yes HC also allow splitters now, but they have so little knowledge of the subject that instead of allowing say a maximum of 3 inches of effective blade on every car. They say oh it cant be seen when looking from above the bumper line... Rediculous! as this gives advantage to some models and makes it impossible for other models to have any effective splitter at all! Easily fixed, but oh no just give the have nots something else to complain about.
Very soon after the success of the P1 Splitter kits we started using the side skirts and found them to be a compliment to the Splitter, as far as I know people have been running these since about 2003 with no problems! What happened ? a little too much for the budget? More recently the rear diffusers we designed and now have in production are selling all over the world! Now that they are being pronounced illegal here is just another example of how we are sliding into a Lifestyle where to be a winner is wrong!, where our children are not allowed to gain points for achievement because it might make a loser feel bad!
Give me a break!

Read my comments elswhere on this forum regarding the Huge success of Honda Cup in New Zealand.
Then ask yourself why is Honda Challenge failing so miserably here? I don't think we can blame the economy as I have had record sales every month since December although a large % is to overseas customers.

We are just about to release our P1 Spec rear wing- Yes one that works! and is affordable! Not an $1800.00 piece of inefective CF Bling that people have been forking out for. When used in conjunction with the splitter kit and the side skirts our wing produces about 180lbs of downforce at 120mph with very little drag, and creates a handling balance that counteracts the Tail Wagging the dog effect that is sometimes experienced in high speed turns because of the very effective front downforce created by the splitter.
I guess they will soon be pronounced illegal too?

Not many people know that in 2007 we ran my then B20 Powered JDM DC2 at Willow Springs with our full Splitter, full undertray, rear difuser and sideskirts and a radiator ducted up through the hood and were able to do consistant lap times of under 1.31 My best ever time before was a 1.33. We gained an extra usable 400 rpm on the front straight just with Aero. The car was as stable as a rock, flat out all the way through eight and nine. Imagine if everyone put in a little effort and a couple of hundred bucks in materials? There is a write up on how to do it on my website- (Technical) Oh thats right... It wouldnt be fair on those who don't want to put in the effort! Or spend the money on rebuilding yet another blown up stock engine, because it keeps the cost down to use stock parts!

Rather disapointing from a business perspective- For the last 13 years I have been a strong supporter of NASA, USTCC and Honda Challenge, through all the ups and downs, including being banned from the series while still sponsoring and mentoring many young drivers. I have dedicated my business and my 30 something years of international motor sports experience to producing great stuff for racers, no fluffy dice, no street racer rubbish. Real race products that have been well designed and thouroughly race tested and to hear this kind of Bull **** really makes you wonder why we bother? And how do young racers get any sort of assistance if every aftermarket product is banned? Where is there any advantage to any business like mine to continue sponsoring this type of class?

Kiwi

Lo-Buck EF

kiwi, there still all the guys that run hondas in time attack and PT. I doubt the loss of sales of just the sideskirts on HC is gonna destroy the company. especially since NO ONE out here ever ran them. keep moving forward with the tings that people currantly use and everything will be fine. keep working on that wing. people will buy it. i know i would if there was one for a hatch.
ps-you get any motul ff 75/90 trans fluid in? i need some.

Wai

Some of the HC rules have also left me scratching my head.
I'm bringing my car back out of hibernation, but not interested in HC anymore.

Kiwi if you ever come out with the wing, I would most definitely consider changing my whole aero to yours. Keep us updated!

RED_90TEG

jeezes

Lo-Buck EF

why not?

lwnslw

today it was annouced that there is a new Honda Challenge Director.

Joyero III

iTrader: (3)

We need Honda Cup in the US.

Make It happen Kiwi.

Look at the new MotoIq series.

Its possible.

KIWI

Yes we needed it back in '05,'06' & '07 but aparently it was not the time. As I said-
Thank God for Time Attack, Moto IQ and some of the other up and coming series.
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I don't think I can make it happen... But perhaps you the competitors can.
I could personally field 5 or 6 competitive cars and drivers all of the standard that you have seen from Special Projects over the years, by the beginning of next year if someone came up with the right combination of rules. But right now I'd rather enjoy my Grand children.

Like it or not- Here are some words of wisdom...
Guys who want to race cars do it for one reason only... They want to win! It's an EGO Driven Sport. People want fast cars! cars that make noise! cars that look cool! with all the aerodynamic **** they can find, and a simple set of rules that allows you to build a motor that will last at least a season!. A set of rules that allow people to obtain Sponsorship from the millions of after marlket performance companies out there.
No disrespect to anyone intended here, but why would any Company be interested in putting a heap of sponsorship money or parts into a 20 year old Civic with a cobbled up K-24 engine that won't last because you are only allowed to use stock parts! Certainly not HONDA! Mazda, Ford, GM, Toyota, and Nissan arn't exactly knocking the door down.
Right now Honda Challenge alienates virtually every after market performance part manufacturer from even wanting to be involved in the sport.

If you want to run Showroom Stock do that! why confuse the issue by allowing Bigger rims, Cams but no sleeving? Head porting but no decent Rods! Building engines to the limit of the regs but not allowing aftermarket C/R Gear sets that for around $1200.00 will get you far better lap times than spending the same amount on an engine that can never be made bullet proof.

As for Spectators- When was the last time you watched a 10 or 12 car Honda Cup race in 120% heat at Buttonwillow and felt that the spectacle was worth the trip?

And for those who are really concerned about the cost- It's not rocket science... It does not matter what you do to an engine internally, it does not matter how much money you spend on it. It's only going to make as much Horsepower as is allowed by the amount of air that comes through the Throttle body.

Think about it.

Kiwi

Wai

Without getting into too much detail, I personally do not like how the B18C5 and H22 are treated in H2. I know I'm free to choose a motor combo that I think has most advantage, but that's not the point. I don't want to turn this into rule bashing, so I'd just opt out and have fun else where.

Johnny Mac

In order for side skirts to be really effective, the skirt would have to extend down to within a 1/4" of the ground and not 4 or more inches. Furthermore, the car should have a full length smooth underbody extending from the splitter all the way back to an effective diffuser.

The reasons:

1. A full length smooth underbody allows the flow to stay at maximum velocity - and hence low pressure region (see Bernoulli err Euler's pressure equation) - from the splitter on back. With this low underbody pressure, there is a pressure gradient (i.e. the pressure outside the side skirts is relatively high pressure compared with the underbody) which leads to an ingress of air into the underbody. This ingress of air, which is worse for a higher pressure differential between the outside and underbody, leads to an increase in underbody pressure, and thus lower downforce. When the skirt doesn't extend to the track, then there is ample space for this underbody ingress of air to flow and an increase in underbody pressure (reduced downforce). It is only when you virtually block off the underbody to the outside air that you benefit from a pair of side skirt. Now, with a rough underbody on a lowered car typically used in say Honda Challenge or World Challenge, the underbody pressure isn't nearly as low and the air ingress to the underbody isn't quite as large since the pressure differential between the outside of the side skirt isn't as large.

2. A proper rear diffuser helps to drive underbody flow by exposing this flow to a larger and lower pressure aft body wake region. This wake is due to large scale flow separation that occurs on almost all bluff bodies (of which a car is considered as one). Reference the flow over a sphere or round cylinder to see what large scale separation looks like. Anyhow, I'll spare you the google search and just say that all production based cars have large wake regions that supply a nice low pressure region thanks to this large scale flow separation. Now, most production based racing series do not allow either a flat underbody or diffuser and as such, the underbody really doesn't see a large pressure differential between the underbody and the outside region of the side skirt. In addition. since the side skirts on these cars don't extend down to anywhere close to the track surface, the side skirts really don't give any aerodynamic benefit. And, this have been shown in testing, wind tunnel testing, and CFD analysis. For this, see Katz's book, or there are numerous Fluid dynamic journal papers that have shown this to be the case.

If you want to see an effective side skirt, look at the 1978 F1 Lotus 79, or any recent DTM car and you'll see how low the side skirt must extend to give any benefit.

Johnny Mac

I would allow them if I were involved in the rules process. But I'm not and they haven't ask me my opinion.

exgr

Who is on the National HC committee now days?! Common sense need to be incorporate more into the rules. I know NorCal the HC leader is vacant right now. I've spoke to Jerry K. about possibly running it but I need to know how much responsibility and time is needed to do a good job. But I already have so much on my plate...

Calif_Kid

I PM'd one of the HC series directors on Nasa Forums, and he e-mailed the other members of the HC rules committee, so it looks like we'll have an official decision on this soon. If they reply on Nasa forums, then I'll copy their reply over here to Honda-Tech. - Jim

H4CRXSi

After talking this over with the other members of the HC Rules Committee (Spencer Anderson and Jeremy Croisset), we have all agreed that these will not be approved for use in HC competition. Also, please look for a Rules Addendum in the coming weeks in regards to side skirt replacement.

Regards,

Sam

Lo-Buck EF

x2

exgr

Good points Kiwi... I have some ideas... let me think about it some more before I share it.

descartesfool

DTM BMW aero for the 2012 season with front splitter, rear diffuser and side skirts to illustrate their design concepts and how low their aero elements are.

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

Thats just wicked!

exgr

If it was my decision I would allow it... If I step in to handle NCHC then I will probably just try to satisfy the local racers. General consensus of local racers would be how I would do things. As long as in our chapter everyone complies, that's fine. When it comes time to do cross overs and Nationals, they can do the compliance according to the "other" rules...

KIWI

So since 2003 our side skirts have been fine? but now a couple of pieces of alloy are more performance enhancing than trick cams, head jobs, Headers, and big brakes?

I have no interest in getting into another argument over HC Rules- I have supported this series since it began but Personally I think it has been over regulated to the point where were flogging a dead horse- Why not take your heads out of the sand and think- Why are the 5 pages of Honda Cup rules working so extremely well in a little country like New Zealand, compared to the struggling class Honda Challenge is here?

Perhaps it's time for new blood both in the construction of the classes and in the administration/rule making... Or not? I've offered my input before but I think the powers that be would regard that as letting the Fox into the Chicken coop.
Perhaps we should just let the series die, which is inevitable the way it's going. I think the series has dwindled down to such low level now that competitors are moving to other more exciting and rewarding classes anyway, or just not racing. perhaps its time to throw the whole thing out and start again in 2013?

I guess we'll have to revise our Sponsorship offer on www.specialprojectsms.com
< Performance Parts-NewProducts>
Fortunately there are lots of other series competitors that love our stuff where we will get a far greater return for our Sponsorship investment.

Kiwi

PS Sam, your final drive will be here on Monday.

chrisb

Funny, I don't recall you being around in 2002 when the series began.

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

Dont start up chris.

Calif_Kid

I'm not racing in HC (just went to TT), but I've heard comments from some of the racers that some things don't make a lot of sense. One racer mentioned that bump steer kits would make it easier to drive the cars but also would also make the tires last longer (which sounds good to me). I'm not sure how much longer the tires the last, but if the kits helped that very much, then it seems worth while. I've also heard comments about aftermarket rear lateral control arms (with spherical bushings) aren't allowed, so people have to get the spherical bushings installed in the stock arms which is more expensive than just using the aftermarket arms. Any outside mirrors are allowed, but small mirrors give slightly better coeff of drag. I know that people want to try to keep the series as low cost as possible, but some of the suggestions seem to make some sense. If there are suggestions of possible changes to the rules, then do all of the racers have much input or vote on the changes, or does the rules committee make the decisions? - Jim