rich7777

Well if thats how he's going on then fair enough... I've always seen there products as been "ok". But don't get me started on this "HP hype". I'm actually looking for somewhere in California (LA) to visit and purchase a set of nice 1000cc injectors from.

DDTECH

Keon = Da man..

These kiddies hide behind a keyboards.

Erasing post because someone's a sponser on this board doesn't mean squat. Bullshit is bullshit, no other way around it.

Keon spent thousands, i spent thousands, others have spent hundreds and thousands.. how do we all feel about getting ripped off??


Tell you what, anyone who disagrees with me, go spend 1200 bucks on a header and you tell me how you feel when a ebay 200 dollar header makes more power.

rich7777

I don't have a clue about Bisi's range ALLMOTOR... I don't think i even know anyone that own's anything Bisimoto (just incase your wondering).... I think i'll pass on there injectors though lol...

tony1

Wow, where to start…

Julio, when I asked for a picture of your 2000cc injector in your for sale post, you never answered me. The picture you have on the website is an EV14 bodied injector which DOES NOT flow 2000cc/min. Lets see what you’ve got. Lets see some data.

How is the linearity?

How is the pressure sensitivity?

Spray pattern is everything, right? What exactly IS the spray pattern?

I’m coming up short seeing ANY real technical data about the ‘Bisimoto’ line of fuel injectors. Put it out there, ID does…

Darkhorizon, “I tried running Q16 through ID2000's, and they basically swell closed after running for ~20 minutes.

I would say any "testing" of Q16 through an injector resulted in any favorable results... it would be fairly proven that they are functioning with Q16.”

This is completely false. The flow is reduced about 41% when Q16 is used with ID2000’s. At that point the flow is stabilized and they work great. Of course we don’t do this or recommend doing this, but we had a race car running mid 9’s on ID2000’s and Q16 for a full season. VP Import reduces the flow 17%. No fuel make’s them ‘swell closed’.

hondatech8798 - “Ams injectors! they actually use injector dynamics injectors they modify and make larger cc sizes available looking too get myself a set of 1600cc injectors from them now”

I’m pretty sure this is not true. AMS is a big supporter of Injector Dynamics and I’m pretty sure they are not modifying our injectors for increased flow.

m3tech95 – I’m down for an honest test of all this stuff. The problem is very few people have the equipment necessary to do any more than general diagnostic testing. We have equipment, Bosch has it, Siemens has it, Ford fuel lab has it, and I assume Denso does as well. Nobody else in the aftermarket can provide the type of testing and data that we do. Without being able to 'dyno' your injector, you simply see the spray pattern and flow rate. The ASNU test bench that most use is simply a dirty injector tester. You can’t accurately test low or high flow situations and there are major problems in the those systems with fluid temperature consistency and fuel pressure pulsations. Static flow testing doesn’t tell you ****.

What's the difference in multiple people selling 'the same thing'? Well, assuming you are actually getting the same injector, the final product is dependant on how well the 'set' is matched and what data you are provided with them.

Check out this graph. This is every tenth injector out of a batch of ID2000's.



Notice that static and high pulsewidth flow is pretty good across all of them? Tested on most people's equipment these would all be a 'good match'.

Look at low pulsewidth deviation across them. Gets ugly huh? 13% spread from one cylinder to the next at idle isn't going to make for a very good idle is it?

Here's a matched set from Injector Dynamics.



YOU CAN NOT ACCURATELY DO LOW FLOW DYNAMIC TESTING WITH COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE FLOW BENCHES

All ID injectors are matched based on 450 data points of dynamic flow data. This takes both injector dead time (known as offset) and flow rate (known as slope) into account. This isn't something we invented, there are SAE papers written many years ago about this stuff, this is just the correct way of doing things.

Injector Dynamics is also the only company I know of who runs all injectors through a break in procedure to ensure the injector is broken in for consistent testing. We only use new cores and the coil and valves/seats WILL seat in a bit and change the characteristics slightly once broken in. If not broken in before testing the results will not be consistent.









All injectors are run in for 30 minutes at varying pulsewidths before the dynamic testing is performed. The above is not the test bench, just the break in bench.

In addition, who else provides the data that Injector Dynamics does?

Check for yourself, anything you ever wanted to know and more is on the website.

http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID725.html
http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID850.html
http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID1000.html
http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID2000.html

http://www.injectordynamics.com/ApplicationData.html

And I highly encourage everyone to read the technical articles here, I don't care who you are, you WILL learn something.

http://www.injectordynamics.com/tech.html


So do you really think the other guys claiming "the same thing as ID but cheaper" have "the same thing"?

Fink29

From what I see he actually has better pricing than most on those bosch injectors. I personally wouldnt do any more business with Bisimoto. At the end of the day they are all the same injectors +/- someone taking the time to match them. I would love to see a dyno comparison of a "match" set vs a non-matched set but I wont hold my breath. In theory it makes since to match them.

m3tech95

Im currently looking to buy injectors... from what I keep seeing they are all the same EV14 just modified....as far as Bisi I have no experience with him or his products so I wont comment. What I would like to see is his flow sheet for his injectors.....I would think any company that touts a new product would be able to show data to back it. Ill let the information (or lack thereof) dictate the opinion.

Fink29

Thanks for that info Tony. Do yu have a dyno comparisons between a match set vs a non matched set? Or is it more of a idle quality issue?

Fink29

m3tech95 - I've been looking into these injectors for a while and the ONLY company that has any real technical data ( outside of a flow sheet) for these injectors are Injector Dynamic. I could be wrong but thats what I have seen.

tony1

As you can see in the flow deviation graph, assuming we're talking about the same core injectors with the same modifications, the higher flow areas are going to be more similar, and that's what will show up on the dyno.

Idle and cruise quality is where you'll see the biggest difference in quality matching. Keep in mind, your 02 sensor only reads an average of the cylinders in that bank. A 5+% spread in a/f ratio from one cylinder to the next at idle and cruise will definitely have an effect on idle quality and fuel efficiency. If you have to run 3 cylinders richer than ideal to make the lean cylinder stop misfiring then that's a problem. Happens all the time and results can be much worse than you might expect.

Check this out. This is some Siemens injectors that are NOT EVEN MODIFIED that Vortech Engineering sent us for help. They had misfire codes on their 2010 Camaro SC projects that they could not resolve.



Think a 40% spread at idle will hurt things??? Again, something not picked up on a normal flow bench.

m3tech95

Fink, honestly the fact that there is so much information on the ID sets is leading me to agree....everyone is looking for the cheapest way to go fast that will never change, but based on the information ^ Tony just posted, i want to see others come close. I was really not aware that much data & testing was done PRIOR to selling them to the public...I would be interested to see how many of the "lower priced" vendors can show as much.

Fink29

Thanks Tony

tony1

And to get an idea what the 'dyno' sheets of some other injectors look like, here's a few.

Keep in mind, these companies don't realize what they're selling is this bad because they can't 'dyno' them like this.

FIC Blue Max 1450



FIC Blue Max Set deviation



380lb/hr 'fuel injector' thing, the oddball ones with the solenoid hanging off the side.



ID2000 and old Bosch 1600 EV1 overlay.



Precision/MSD/Delphi 1000cc



RC/SMP 1000cc



Dynamic flow pressure sensitivity of all ID injectors and the EFI Wizzurd 2000.



Here's a Siemens 212lb/hr



Here's a kick ***, very expensive, Magnetti Marelli injector at 116psi.

Turbogixxer

Quick question, how old are all these results?

tony1

Which ones? As you can see by the differences in the graphs, some of them are quite old. The 380lb injectors were tested 7/2008. The RC 1000 was 11/2008, etc. Does that matter? We have a ton of data compilied over the years. These just happen to be on my desk computer. There are thousands of these tests in the system.

tony1

The FIC tests were Jan 2011.

Turbogixxer

The reason I ask is graphs look different in nature and look like older results. If you were to compare lets say that ID1600 (that is now discontinued) to a other injector (who cares what company), you could make the result favorable to the point you are trying to make just on the fact that it is older and taking into the count of if a product changes or improves.

So the results you posted are coming up on four years. Thats a lot of time to make changes. I am not saying this or that made changes, saying what maybe different.

tony1

That's irrelevant if we're talking about injectors that are still on the market. I'm pretty sure all of those posted are still being sold. There's no improvements that will be made to change the linearity of those injectors.

That's a big part of our problem. We can test stuff all day long but people are always quick to point out that the results could be skewed. I welcome anyone else to post their own injector data, but for some reason they never do...

Turbogixxer

I never questioned the results of the graphs, please do not take it the wrong way. I am sure that you have found new data on your injectors and improved them, even if it was something small. Some companies improve the product as time goes on, some do not. Just pointed out the age of the graphs. I am sure if you compare a bosch injector from 1986 to 2005, I am sure you will see a difference. Both are still sold to this day, but very different.

tony1

A Bosch injector from 86 is a different model from a 2005 model. Don't confuse brand and model. Those graphs are model specific. Improving the flow linearity is not an 'improvement' someone is going to make on an injector without using a different core.

Happy to test anything you guys want to send in for 'current' results.

DDTECH

Thanks Tony!!!!!

And turbo, thx for the birthday wishes man

Turbogixxer

I understand, I was making a point. You made my point with using a different core.

I was not talking about any company, just saw something that looked different to me. I test a ton of products, so I just thought it was something I was ask about because maybe I was seeing it wrong. I know what SAE papers you are talking about, I have them currently on my laptop.

No need to argue about it anymore, we have different views on it.

Spawne32

iTrader: (3)

tony your my new favorite person, i just wish you sold injectors under 725cc

tony1

The reason we don't is because of the incredible linearity of the ID725. There's just no engine out there that won't be in the linear operating range. Check it out.



The ID725's come STOCK in this car.

http://noblecars.com/m600/m600.html

This car has to pass strict emissions tests in Europe and function as expected in an OEM application. Pretty cool stuff we think.

Any reason you need less than the ID725?

Fink29

So Tony, ID does more than just match bosch injectors and mod then for more flow. or is it the modification process that makes your version of the bosch injector better?

Spawne32

iTrader: (3)

i just would never make use of a 725 injector making less then 300whp lol