redline870

i just swapped out my f22b2 in my 96 accord lx with a jdm f22b. i swapped over everything to make the engine obd2 (distributor and external coil, oil pump and crank sensor, etc.) i cant get it to run. im getting spark and fuel and the distributor is NOT off 180 degrees. the firing order is correct and the spark plug wires are hooked up correctly. when i crank it it sputters for about half a second and then dies. i have tried everything to get this running. so here is what i did today.
i removed all the spark plugs and then unplugged all the fuel injector connections.
i turned the key to the 'on' position and i hooked a noid light (tests to see if the injectors are getting a signal) to each of the injectors.
using a breaker bar i manually turned over the engine.
when the engine is turning over continuously, everything works fine. the noid light was lighting up every other complete rotation of the crankshaft. the spark plug was firing at the exact opposite time of the noid light, firing at every other complete rotation of the crankshaft. this is exactly how it is supposed to work and is the same for every cylinder.
heres the wierd part... when i start rotating the crank or if i stop rotating the crank and then start again, the noid light and the spark plug go erratic and will fire at the same time or at the completely wrong time. for example, when i first start to rotate the crank sometimes the noid light wont light up for 4 full turns of the crank, or the spark plug and noid light fire at the same time. when this happens it throws the check engine light for 'po335: crankshaft position sensor "A" circuit.'
does this sound like a bad crank position sensor or wiring going to this sensor? i have reached the end of my knowledge and dont know what to check now. i dont want to spend $150 on a new crank sensor and have it not fix my problem.

Duane_in_Japan

Where is the crank sensor on this motor please. As the engine turns it must see #1 CYL sensor so the computer knows when to time fuel injection. Actually fuel injection is during the intake stroke and spark is BTDC of the very next stroke, compression, so they are not really on opposite strokes, they may be about 1.5 out of 2 strokes apart, yes that is hard to see. Turning the engine by hand is too slow, do you get a code while cranking with the starter.

Are you sure the rotor is pointing to #1 when the engine is at TDC Compression stroke on #1.

redline870

the crank sensor is on the oil pump. and the injector and spark plug are firing almost exactly 1 turn apart from each other. the breaker bar was in the same spot every time the noid light lit up and every time i got spark. i do not get a code while cranking with the starter. when i crank it with the starter it sputters for a sec and dies and i do not get a code for some reason. not even a misfire code. i dont want to sit there and keep cranking it over for a while though cuz i dont want to hydrolock it.
as for the rotor pointing to the #1 cylinder on the compression stroke, im not %100 positive. i dont know how to check this. i did however take off the distributor and flip over the gear on the end of the distributor shaft. then it didnt even sputter when i attempted to start it. so i knew this wasnt right, atleast before i was getting a little bit of combustion.
*heres another wierd thing. to test the crank sensor you are supposed to remover the connector and check terminals 1 & 2, and 3 & 4, with a multimeter. if the reading is between 500-1000 ohms then the sensor is good. when i touch the multi meter to the terminals it gives me a reading for just a second and then goes to a blank screen. evertime and on both sets of terminals, it gives a quick reading and then a blank screen again. is this what its supposed to be, is it supposed to give a reading just for a second? the reading it displays for a second is never a consistent reading but it is however always out of spec. like 1400 ohms or 1900 ohms or 1700 ohms, never the same but always out of spec.

im really starting to wonder here. are the internals in all f22b engines from 92'-97' the same both jdm and usdm?

Duane_in_Japan

OK, I would say you are getting a code because you are not following the built in map of the computer, turning it by hand is against the computers logic. Dont use a digital meter, use an analog meter.

You have spark and you have compression or do you, you need timing and that can be off due to several reasons but you have done an engine swap so there is a whole new set of problems. The profile of the CKF needs to be visually verified between the two engines unless you have a scope. Back to timing, timing belt alignment, gear security, distributor indexing to include spark plug wire indexing. Put some oil in each cylinder and seal up the piston rings and get some more compression. It wont hydrolock, everything is getting blown out of the exhaust valve, even liquids, the valve does not completely close until the engine is in the intake stroke already (ATDC). I am talking in your peticular scenario.

One more time, what all did you change to accomidate the CKF, crank sensor.

redline870

i have looked up the part numbers for both the obd1 and obd2 engines and the part numbers are exactly the same, most importantly the crankshaft and the camshaft are the same. i have checked the timing of the belt probably 5 times, i know thats right. i have tried to turn the engine over while twisting the distributor in multiple directions and i still cant get it to stay running. how do i check the profile of the crank sensor? and what is plug wire indexing, distributor indexing, and gear security???
to convert the engine to obd2 i swapped over the oil pump, crank sensor, and distributor. just to make sure everything was the same i swapped over the throttle body, and all sensors on the intake manifold. the only parts im using from the new swap are the block, head, intake maifold, and transmission.
o and i borrowed a crank sensor from autozone, and checked the resistance. it was doing the same thing as the crank sensor on my engine!!! it was flashing readings out of spec. i dont have an analog meter. this is very discouraging because at this point i was kind of hoping it was the crank sensor even though it is an expensive little sensor, cuz i just need to get the damn thing running. im now driving my car in snow and salt covered roads which this accord was supposed to be for. i hate to say it but im almost ready to give up. i have exhausted all my knowledge and i am completely stumped. wtf.

redline870

o i lied there is two crank shaft choices for obd1 engines. is there any way i can run the serial numbers on the new block and find out what crankshaft is in it?

Duane_in_Japan

You didnt mention changing the computer, indexing means alignment such as the distributor can only go in one way but the drive gear on the end of the distributor can go on two ways and the spark plug wires can go on four ways. Everything may look correct but something may not be correctly indexed, just a though, have seen the drive gear off by almost 90 degrees, wait, thats impossible. Come to find out the shaft was out of another distributor all together and it was not indexed the same as the distributor it was transplanted into.

Forget about the profile, your old set up did not have the CKF Sensor so there will be no comparison. The profile is what you see on an oscilloscope, the electronic signature, the wave pattern. Sorry I didnt just now go back and read all the posts but do you have three sensors in the distributor and the CKF is #4 sensor.

The crankshaft wont matter, there is no wave pattern internal to your engine. Every crank turns 720 degrees per 4 strokes. Many other engines would make a difference.

Radio shack should have a really cheap analog meter, dont go too cheap though. Did you try to start the engine without the CKF hooked up???

redline870

i didnt change the computer. and the drive gear on the end of the distributor has a pin and c clip holding it on, so that can be switched around 180 degrees. the obd2 distributor only had two slotted holes on the metal base and the obd1 distributor on the new engine has 3 slotted holes on the base. i tried the original distributor and that didnt work so i disassembled both distributors and swapped the internals from the obd2 distributor into the obd1 distributors base. so i know have an obd2 distributor with a obd1 metal base. this didnt change a thing, but atleast i have a little more ignition timing adjustments.
i would just swap in the new crank sensor i borrowed from autozone but it is underneath the timing belt and all that **** and i would like to diagnose the problem instead of trial and error although that may be what its come to. ill pick up an analog meter and let you know what i find. thanks for your help man your the only one who is taking the time to help me out. i wish you could just take a look at it since you seem to know a lot more about it than me.

Duane_in_Japan

OK, that is what I thought. Now make me think straight please. Actually you only changed the engine, all the electronics from your old engine were moved to your new JDM engine.

The OBDII stuff is ALL, 100% moved over to the JDM block. You changed the oil pump housing so it could accept the CKF Sensor, you kept your OBDII distributor but swapped over the outer housing to the old housing so it could bolt up to the head. What about injectors, are both sets the same amount of resistance, is there an external resistor module involved.

I will assume that both distributors have three sensors inside, you would have noticed a problem when you swapped housings, yes.

NOW, for a possible indexing problem, one of the three internal reluctors only has ONE point on it, I think it is the CYP sensor. It tells the ECU when #1 is TDC so the ECU can start timing.

Get both distributors on the table so that you can see both CYP reluctors inside, point both reluctors in the same direction and then look at the drive gear and the alignment of the drive gear pin, does everything line up please. If they are the same, I understand that Autozone can test these things, take both dizzys and your coils and ignitors if you have more than one set to get tested.

We still have no way to really test the CKF without a scope, so logically you will look for a bad connection, broken wire. This is where your new meter will come in handy.

I just had a brain fart, explain in deep detail the CKF Sensor, the reluctor and the pickup please on the crankshaft.

Duane_in_Japan

I found some pics online, did you also swap over the crankshaft timing gear with the reluctors built onto it?

redline870

i swapped over all the electronic sensors onto the new engine. crank sensor, oil pump, throttle body(map sensor and throttle position sensor), air intake temp sensor, and idle air control valve(or w/e its called.) i didnt swap out the injectors for two reasons: 1: i dont want to use the original injectors with 170k on them, 2: i swapped them out anyways and it didnt make any difference in starting the engine. i looked up the part numbers, plus i simply read the part numbers off the injectors and they are exactly the same. no external resistor module involved i dont believe.
NO NO NO! both distributors do not have 3 sensors inside them. the crank position sensor is located inside the obd1 distributor. i simply just swapped the metal bases. so the new distributor does not have a crank position sensor inside it, it has been relocated to the oil pump. the new obd1 dizzy has 4 different gear-like positions on it. the obd2 dizzy only has one gear tooth, so this is the one im using on the new engine.
i have checked for a break in the wire with a continuity tester. there is no continuity between the wires at the ecu and a gound so there shouldnt be any break.
the crank shaft sensor has 2 electronic sensors on it that bolt on either side of the crank underneath the timing belt. the crank pulley sprocket has 2 tabs on it that stick out on either side for the crank to get a signal off of. i hope this is enough info, if not then let me know.

4671 Hybird

The crankshaft timing gear is the piece to the puzzle, you need to swap it over. I've been battling this same issue for a year and a half (project was put on hold since I had an extra car) and just started working on it again. Luckily, I came across a blown OBD2 97 engine and the crankshaft timing gears are clearly different. I'm going to put it on now and give it a whirl, I fully expect it to fire up and run perfectly though.

4671 Hybird

See my thread over at Superhonda, it reads almost exactly like yours.

http://www.superhonda.com/forum/f13/...n-dies-315057/

egtwincam

maybe 4671 Hybrid is right? Did you swap over the cranshaft sprocket over? and made sure you didnt damage the teeth on it?

also make sure the ignition timing is correct. do this to verify. set tdc by lining white mark on crank, cam sprocket says up and lines on cam horizontal to head. now take out the distributor and the keyway on the end of the dizzy that goes into the cam should have some lines on it. 2 lines on the end piece and on the dizzy. they should line up and not be 180 degrees off. if thats correct, install dizzy and then check if rotor is lined up correctly. the end of the rotor that is metal should be pointing at #1 cylinder. you look on the dizzy cap to verify. if all these are cool. then its not your ign timing. make sure your spark plug wires are correct order on cap.

make sure your ecu ground is clean and on tight. i always sand down the surface on the manifold and wire.

make sure all your grounds on the battery, tranny, valve cover is there and connected.

other than that it should run. UNLESS when you swapped over the internals/externals of the distributor,..something when wrong and was damaged! you can also use the obd1 dizzy..you just have to rewire. not bad.

GOOD LUCK!

Duane_in_Japan

OK, all your electronics stayed on your car to include the engine wire harness and the distributor plugs and all the guts of the cars original distributor, so no need to rewire the dizzy.

The only concern I have now is the crankshaft gear with those 2 reluctors. The JDM and the USDM crankgears should not crossover. I am not 100% that this is true for your engines but, the JDM crankgear should have the key built into the gear itself. The USDM crankgear should need a seperate key to go between the crankshaft keyway (slot) and the crankgear keyway (slot). Is this correct or not please.

Either way, did both crankgears have 2 reluctors and were they both the exact same shape AND INDEXING? This is my main concern now and you still did not check full resistance from the ECU > through the CKP sensors > back to the ECU on its one or two sets of wires. I will now call it the CKP and not the CKF, thanks for clearing up how many sensors inside the dizzy.

4671 Hybird

The crankshaft timing gear is the culprit, I promise you. On the back side of the OBD2, you'll see 12 spots that the CPS uses. On the JDM motor, there's only 4 (looks like a cross). Other than that difference, both crank gears are identical, to include shape, indexing, and the keyway.

FWIW, I had the same issue, swapped the crank gear, and fired it up about 10 minutes ago. It ran perfect and once I button everything back up, I'll finally be driving my Odyssey again

*Edit - Even though it's an Odyssey, I have the same engine as you*

redline870

4671 Hybird-my problem sounds identical and i mean identical to yours but i swapped over the usdm obd2 crankshaft gear when i did the swap, and what do you mean "On the back side of the OBD2, you'll see 12 spots that the CPS uses. On the JDM motor, there's only 4 (looks like a cross)?" the obd2 timing gear consists of the timing gear alone with the two reluctors on it. the obd1 timing gear was the crank gear with no reluctors and a ring behind it to keep the belt from slipping off the gear. when i put the obd2 timing gear on the new engine i did not put the metal ring behind the obd2 crank gear.

Duane_in_Japan-the jdm crankshaft gear did not have a built in key way. but what does the keyway have to do with it? since the new jdm engine was obd1 it did not have a crank gear with reluctors on it. the two crankshaft timing gears were exactly the same size with the same amount of teeth, only difference being one had the metal ring behind it, and one had reluctors on it. how do i check the full resistance of the ecu? another stupid question what are the abreviations for, CKP and CKF?

egtwincam-now take out the distributor and the keyway on the end of the dizzy that goes into the cam should have some lines on it. 2 lines on the end piece and on the dizzy. they should line up... are you 100% POSITIVE about this because i took a picture of the distributor before i took it apart and the lines were not lined up! i tired the dizzy both ways, with the lines lined up and the lines not lined up and when they were lined up it would even attempt to start, wierd. the grounds to tranny, valve cover, ecu, and battery are all connected. the crankshaft timing gear was slightly damaged during the removal due to the fact i couldnt get it off. only to the teeth though not to the reluctors. i lightly sanded the part i damaged and installed it. i dont think thats the problem because it was very slightly damaged. i tried the original dizzy before even disassembling the two and still had the same problem, so i dont think anything in the distributor area was damaged.

QUESTION: i think this engine may be out a 93' or later vehicle. reason being that i just was looking at parts diagrams and 94'-95' accords had the crank sensor on the oil pump as well. the 93' accords were like the new jdm engine and had the crank sensor in the distributor. will this effect anything???

redline870

someone please post the firing order and #1 cylinder on cap. the haynes manual i have says that the #1 cylinder is in two different spots in two different sections of the manual. they should change the name of these books to "the haynes book of lies." all my problems stem to misinformation from this book.

bseriescrxsi

info from autozone.com on 1996 honda accord

redline870

thanks... looks like i have the firing order correct.

heres a pic of the oil pump, crankgear, and crank sensor before disassembly for reference.





ANOTHER QUESTION:
i have heard that since im using the obd1 tranny that i will need an obd1 ecu for the tranny. is this true?!?!?!

4671 Hybird

Apologies, my terminology was wrong. I called it the crankshaft timing gear when that might not actually be the term. I consider your picture the crankshaft sprocket and the part I'm referring to as the crankshaft timing gear but it's all good, I'll explain it better.

Please take a picture of the backside of the pulley that fits on top of the gear that you posted. The picture I want is the sprocket that fits on the crankshaft that your balance shaft belt uses. I consider this the crankshaft timing gear but again, it's the pulley that the balance shaft belt uses that sits on the crankshaft. Post up a picture of that and I can tell you right away if it's the problem or not. I should've taken pics of mine when I had it off but if you'll bare with me and post a pic, I can definitively tell you if that's the issue or not.

Again, my bad on the confusing part name.

To get your mind on the same track as mine, check out how one of the CPS sensors faces outward. That sensor is the one that reads off the piece that I'm referring too. If your piece only has 4 crosses, then that's your issue.

"the obd2 timing gear consists of the timing gear alone with the two reluctors on it." <-That's what I thought until I checked the back of the part I'm referring too. As soon as I saw the 12 spots and saw how the sensor was facing out, it all made sense.

4671 Hybird

Does your OBD1 tranny have sensors that correspond to your OBD2 harness? If not, you're good to go. As far as I know though, you should be fine.

4671 Hybird

Just to give further clarification, the gear I'm referring to is the crankshaft pulley that the balance belt uses, not the crank gear that has the 2 reluctors. If you notice that one of the CKP sensors faces out towards the timing cover, this sensor is reading the pulley I identified above. If this pulley is from an OBD1, you will have the same symptoms as me and the car will start for a second, confuse itself, then shut off.

4671 Hybird

Look in Haynes, page 2A-13, diagram 10.16B. Also, page 2A-12, diagram 10.9. If your part looks like the one in the picture, you have the wrong part. See what I mean about the 4 way cross now? Even though the enine has a CPS, they still show the OBD1 part....

redline870

dude i think your right! im 90% sure i put on the obd1 pulley. i'll run down to the shop now and take a pic of the obd2 pulley and post it soon.