StreetRac3r

I was always under the impression that MSD ignition was overall just better. Runs better, better throttle response, etc. I'm now starting to hear that MSD is a crappy ignition system and OEM is much better. Anyone got some opinions on this? Which do you feel is better?

Dunc

It also depends which MSD system you are using. Some people have had problems, but others have had zero problems.

RCautoworks

After having experienced a problem my friends msd spark plug wires, 3 of them decide they would get stuck inside the cylinder tuber ( the plastic piece ) then having the cap ends just split from the wire itself, I'm reluctant to try any of there products.

Dueceification

I have personaly never had any issues with the MSD units. Though one time I did have a ICM go on me (the control module inside the dizzy), it was a old dizzy. After that I have never had any issues. Ive had a 6AL in one car, Sport Compact version in another and a Digital 6 in another car. Never had any issues personaly. Then again I've heard of people having nother but problems. Though some of the fastest cars I've seen have MSD ignitions in them. The way I look at it if your not having issues with your OEM ignition dont change it!

coneheadsracing

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dueceification &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> The way I look at it if your not having issues with your OEM ignition dont change it! </TD></TR></TABLE>



I use one, because it was free. 6al that is over 10 years old. I like it for the rev limiter control. However, i would say most issues with aftermarket ignitions on here, are wiring related. If you've never done wiring before, find someone who has.

StreetRac3r

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dueceification &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Though some of the fastest cars I've seen have MSD ignitions in them. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I've noticed that also, all the high power'd muscle cars and imports all have MSD ignition... if its so bad why would they use it??

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by coneheadsracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
However, i would say most issues with aftermarket ignitions on here, are wiring related. If you've never done wiring before, find someone who has.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was thinking the same thing.

quik sol

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by coneheadsracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">



I use one, because it was free. 6al that is over 10 years old. I like it for the rev limiter control. However, i would say most issues with aftermarket ignitions on here, are wiring related. If you've never done wiring before, find someone who has.</TD></TR></TABLE>

tell me about it, I hate shitting wiring jobs...I have had to fix so many wiring jobs from these morons who think red to positive, black to negative...tada, I am an electrical genius! and then expletive their whole car up and come whining for me to fix it.

2point2

I really liked the msd but got rid of it because they are simply un-reliable, and unnecessary for my goals.

In one summer I seen 3 or 4 of them get chucked at my friends shop. Myself, I've thrown out a set of fairly new msd wires to cure an intermittent ignition issue and also melted two dist caps. Their products do what their supposed to do but are pretty hit and miss as far as quality and reliability goes.

An OEM would never sell any cars if they had 1/10th the reliability that msd products have.

Joseph Davis

How many times do you have to ask the same question and get the same answers, all in the same 24 hour period? What is your major malfunction?

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2002581

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2001565

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2001805

KeyserSoze

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Joseph Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How many times do you have to ask the same question and get the same answers, all in the same 24 hour period? What is your major malfunction?

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2002581

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2001565

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2001805</TD></TR></TABLE>

Wow. Either take the advice of knowledgeable people or be quiet and go use your MSD. Whichever you choose, be done with it. I would be a bigger smartass, but I'm to tired for that **** right now......

/thread(s)

SOHC_MShue

I've had better luck with oem ignitions. Although i did notice when the nhra sport compact event came to Virginia Motorsports Park Stephanie Eggum's car was running a msd distributor setup .

boostedcivicsir

if you are talking in terms of dizzy vs. dizzy, hands down the oe is better. i have had a 6al on my car for 6 years no issues. used it last year with a 2 step. worked well. i doint know what everyones problem is with msd stuff. BUT the dizzys are crap. thats a fact.

int3gr4vtec

I ran a MSD 6al for a long time without problem
I put all this on my car only for the lunch control, because I don't belive it's increassing the performances on a near stock engine (under 250hp)


Modified by int3gr4vtec at 8:42 PM 6/4/2007

int3gr4vtec

I forget to said that I get the wire (that I like), blaster2 coil, and rotor cap. I was running oem rotor, I hear that the MSD one are rusting quite fast

Ubertec

I run a 6al With stock coil, the main differance is one is capacitive discharged.
In a stock ignition you have the time between coil fires to charge the primary coil. So @ really high RPMs You may not have time to charge the primary coil in order to get the spark you need from the secondary. The capacitive dicharge has a capacitor"little battery" that is already charged so charging the primary is already has full voltage to it. Have you ever heard of wiring two circuits to your coil, one normal and one use a a 6volt battery inline with your 12volt coil input then a relay that has a pressure switch. Set the switch where you want and when the switch is on you,ll have 18v rather the 12v @ the coil. Not so good for the coil over time but will help keep the misfires down short hand say drag racing.

vtekthis

ive been running the dizzy for quite some time now and have had yet a single issue, not only has it performed well, it has never never yeilded an ignition breakup as numerous OEM's have.......This is working in conjuntion with a 6AL

MSD&gt;OEM anyday

Joseph Davis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ubertec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">In a stock ignition you have the time between coil fires to charge the primary coil. So @ really high RPMs You may not have time to charge the primary coil in order to get the spark you need from the secondary. </TD></TR></TABLE>

No, you have plenty of time, because at really high rpms torque is dropping off and as such the mixture is a LOT easier to light off than at torque peak. Further, you have plenty of time to fully charge the coil - or close enough that it does not matter - at high rpms. Trust me on this - I have fried four coils in the last month and a half playing with dwell settings in order to get a grasp of charge times and how to manipulate them.

Most of it is just fooling around; the majority of ignition problems when using good stock components are resolved by tightening the plug gap. Fiddling charge times has only netted, thus far, improvements in or around torque peak where you have plenty of time to charge the coil... it works exactly like tightening the plug gap in most cases.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ubertec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The capacitive dicharge has a capacitor"little battery" that is already charged so charging the primary is already has full voltage to it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, that is not how it works. Caps are not like batteries.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ubertec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Have you ever heard of wiring two circuits to your coil, one normal and one use a a 6volt battery inline with your 12volt coil input then a relay that has a pressure switch. Set the switch where you want and when the switch is on you,ll have 18v rather the 12v @ the coil. Not so good for the coil over time but will help keep the misfires down short hand say drag racing.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That can work if you make a point of just charging the coil, but if the ECU ever sees the higher voltage it'll just shorten dwell time so that the coil only takes on the OE-specified charge. If you get any significant gains from doing this you either have something wrong with your ignition system or, I repeat, you needed to tighten up your plug gap.

Paying close attention to AFRs is also important. Some setups simply will not fire if you try to run them too rich past a certain power level. The car needs to be correctly tuned before you can really pinpoint the ignition as being a weak spot.

Joseph Davis

Oh, yah:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vtekthis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ive been running the dizzy for quite some time now and have had yet a single issue, not only has it performed well, it has never never yeilded an ignition breakup as numerous OEM's have.......</TD></TR></TABLE>


I hope you aren't comparing an MSD distributor to a DK distributor, full of cheap chinese junk electronics and low quality reman.

I hope you aren't comparing a brand new MSD distributor to an 8-15 year old high mileage piece that needs gone through to bring it back up to speed.

I suspect you are.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vtekthis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This is working in conjuntion with a 6AL</TD></TR></TABLE>

I hope you don't expect a universal application generic ignition piggyback box that arbitrarily molests coil dwell to correctly control a specific Honduh coil whose ECU is attuned to provide said coil with very specific dwell times for a specific engine.

I suspect you are.

You think you are making valid points, but you haven't identified what it is you desire to test and gone about doing so. It requires a knowledge of the system you currently lack. Feel free to share with me how much dwell time you think any specific coil should be fed for a specific application if you disagree - but you can't. You just hook up a four wire universal application snake oil mystery box and plug in a $500 Brand Name distributor to compare power and driveability results that are commeasurate with anything I or others have acheived repeatably on a stock ignition setup.

I can tell you exactly what dwell time any of the Honduh-based tuning options provide as a function of battery voltage and rpm, I can perform simple LR circuit calculations to plot exactly how much charge the coil takes on for a given voltage and dwell, I can state with certainty what amount of voltage/amperage/power is passed across the plug gap, I can follow what results in gains and what does not with absolute precision. At no point in time am I concerned with having multiple sparks below 3000 rpms for no reason whatsoever, or a Brand Name chunk of bandwagon electronics that removes my ability to either predict or dictate how much power I pass across any given set of sparkplugs.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vtekthis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">MSD&gt;OEM anyday</TD></TR></TABLE>

My shiny new been sitting on a shelf for years 8K mile CRV distributor and the ability to think for myself instead of blindly spending money &gt; anything MSD anyday.

tony1

One thing to keep in mind, when changing to a CDI system, there is no dwell at the coil. The CDI box holds the charge and sends the high voltage signal to the coil. Generally speaking, a CDI system will have more spark energy, at the cost of spark duration. A good CDI/coil combination will have the best compromise of spark energy and spark duration.

Joseph Davis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A good CDI/coil combination will have the best compromise of spark energy and spark duration.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You're a bright guy, and experienced. Can I get you to elaborate on that statement for me?

tony1

Well, from what we've found in race cars, and what Motec has found in coil testing, the best combination for big power alcohol cars seems to be a smallish inductive coil paired with a high energy CDI box. The Mercury Marine coil, with almost no resistance at all, almost a dead short to ground on the box, has the highest spark energy of any coil they tested, but alot of the guys trying to run their alcohol cars at .60-.65 lambda were having problems with misfires. By switching to the CBR coils the problems were solved. In testing, the CBR coil didn't have anywhere near the spark energy the Merc coil did, but had a much longer spark duration. We've also had very good luck with the OMC coils we run on our alcohol drag cars, they seem to be a good middle point between the Merc. coil and the CBR coils. Then again, i don't run my alcohol cars are .60 lambda, i know better... lol

Bense

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Joseph Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">universal application snake oil mystery box</TD></TR></TABLE> lol

Joseph Davis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well, from what we've found in race cars, and what Motec has found in coil testing, the best combination for big power alcohol cars seems to be a smallish inductive coil paired with a high energy CDI box. The Mercury Marine coil, with almost no resistance at all, almost a dead short to ground on the box, has the highest spark energy of any coil they tested, but alot of the guys trying to run their alcohol cars at .60-.65 lambda were having problems with misfires. By switching to the CBR coils the problems were solved. In testing, the CBR coil didn't have anywhere near the spark energy the Merc coil did, but had a much longer spark duration. We've also had very good luck with the OMC coils we run on our alcohol drag cars, they seem to be a good middle point between the Merc. coil and the CBR coils. Then again, i don't run my alcohol cars are .60 lambda, i know better... lol</TD></TR></TABLE>

Good stuff.

I know CDI likes very short dwell, do you think the problem with the MM coil could be lack of charge time, or alternately lack of a significantly long charge/discharge time? I've read the SAE papers on being able to ignite a mixture off of a pulse of light every bit as well as a spark, and how the best ignition was acheived by blending the two (plasma), but I never pondered spark duration.

Probably be something worth googling specs on and crunching numbers.

tony1

By charge time on the Merc coils, are you referring to the box charge time? There is no charge time on the coils. As far as charge time on the box, any decent CDI system will be able to fully charge up to 12k rpms easily.


Also, there's some good CDI discussions on the EFI101.com forums.

Boostedb20EH2

Just a note, people make more than 500whp on oem ignition systems. On 15 psi i took my msd out and went back to oem and i havent noticed a difference.