Battosai84

Wohoo discussing about veggies in a motorsport forum...

Ekasey

LOL you're Canadian...../argument

and some sort of liberal hippie douche, go drive your prius

sander

I really liked the idea of this thread originally, let's keep it inline.

Do you think that engine manufacturers will continue to make internal combustion more efficient (ie more diesel like), or just give up on it entirely and move toward electricity? Or something else perhaps? I remember talking to the NASA chief instructor last time I was at an event and he was talking about nasa incorporating an "e" series, with the mini-e and others as they become more common.

RR98ITR

I guess part of what's wrong with racing is just an extension of what else is just wrong with us. We get off the track. We mean well. But we get off track and then we're not communicating any more. And what's more frustrating than failure to communicate.

I am prepared to race against vegans and shake their hands after a good race regardless of who wins, unless they have KERS and will give me a huge shock.

At breakfast the other day several friends who had met Roger Penske were telling about how gracious he was and how involved in the nitty gritty of racing he is. All sounds great. But he and his peers, at their level of influence in the sport, appear to me to be part of the problem. So there you go - people we like, respect and admire, and that we'd get along with, might be more of a problem than people we disagree with, dislike, and revile. And who do we take it out on?

I know that the most relevant relevance is that with regard to the attraction of money. And no short stretch that. At least the tobacco companies were in part dealers in pleasure, albeit pleasure in chains, and some actual relevance there.

Scott, who saw a bumper sticker with tiny words the other day...it said something like "If you aren't supposed to eat humans, why are they made of meat?" It's wrong to be cruel to other living things, even humans.

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

Obviously a nerve was hit here.
You like what you like, and we who eat meat will like what we like.
I have to agree a terrible society we live in that condones cruelty.

Disturbing vids to say the least.
cruelty for entertainment not acceptable in my book.
The slaughter one very disturbing, and i hope a more humane way will be used in the future.
I dont control that, and I dont eat calf.

However for one to impose their will on another because of their beliefs in what they dont eat is not acceptable.
Obviously Peta films we see here.

Dont get me started on PETA. I know lots about that organization, and they arent the best in practicing what they preach. But thats for another time and discussion.
If you wanna hug a tree go ahead.. dont go preaching about how the world is doomed because someone likes meat, or how much their racing is killing the planet.

Back to the discussion of green racing, and how that nissan leaf car can go 20 mins on a single charge.
Lets find out how they can make it more than 20 mins, and how technological advances will help make the sport cleaner for the environment.

MBellRacing

The "Green Revolution" won't go away. I do think that racing pushes the rest of the automotive world. The ECU, composite bodies (on cars), double wishbone suspension, chassis dynamics, active suspension, extensive aerodynamic research (in cars) was all done to go FASTER by somehow being more efficient. What is happening is completely natural and completely fair. The world is concerned about driving technology into being more fuel efficient, so they push the pinnacle sport of the automotive world to experiment. What is wrong with that? Why do cars need V16 engines? Are we not watching racing to just see man and machine pit himself against the next best man, the next best machine? Who cares if it doesn't rumble like it used to?

There was some stink when a couple series let in cars like BMW M3s with 6-cylinder engines, laughing at their silly sound. Guess what? The big cars that were loud and "manly" got their asses handed to them.

I don't think F1 should go electric. I think the top formula of car racing should be about a conventional engine, a conventional chassis, conventional equipment, pushed to their limit, and done so in a way that it attracts and challenges the best drivers in the world. I also believe, however, that there SHOULD be electric car racing, hybrid racing, diesel racing, designed in such a way to attract the best drivers in the world as well as thrill and extend a fan base to further evolve the sport, and indeed, the automotive world.

This is the future. Gasoline cars will slowly be pushed to the periphery as more efficient (for emissions and fuel savings) vehicles emerge and develop. If you are the kind of person who smokes a corncob pipe and always think that performance vehicles should smell like burning dinosaurs, then you'll be one of those furry back spherical fellows at the vintage races complaining about "this is how cars were supposed to sound".

I was very involved for a few years in developing an alternative fuel endurance racing series. It was exciting because it was a challenge. It was there to make people think outside the box. Think about jet turbine generators, hybrid-in-series power plants, diesel engines running on who-knows-what. I get somewhat bored as an informed insider with current racing. Rules are built around old technology. This internal combustion engine is nearly as old as the wheel, indeed, older than the vulcanized rubber tire! Why are we pushing it so hard? Why do we expect 500,000 miles of service from something that makes 1000hp and achieves 60mph? Why are we still trying to stretch the bounds of efficiency with a design from antiquity? Why can't our cars fly right now as we were promised in so many SciFi movies?! I guaranty that if you forced F1 to use diesel engines in their cars (which I disagree with, trust me) that diesel technology would very quickly advance to a whole new level. Same thing goes for electric engines. Yes, these are still very old designs, but they are a change. They are different from what this guy calls a race car and will likely upset him to the point of internal combustion, himself...



...and that makes it all okay.

-Matt, who thinks narrow-mindedness is the root of devolution and stagnant technology.

RR98ITR

Matt,

You come off very reasonable. But let me ask you: are there hoards of new green racing fans and participants just waiting for a change of technology to come rushing into our sport? And if not, and I think not, and these changes alienate those of the narrow minded devolving and stagnant variety, then what's left of racing? Are you sure this story has a happy ending? The suspense is killing me. Figuratively literally.

Scott, who thinks you are holding to some contradictory opinions...why shouldn't F1 be electrical?...in fact why should the first to cross the finish line "win"?...perhaps the most sustainable and effecient car should win regardless of finishing position...Competition is injurious to our better humanity...who says we aren't all winners?

PS - after additional text and picture: "Ok Matt, now you're just being mean!" (But I Love that pic!)

RR98ITR

See - this is Exactly what I was talking about in my original posts. Your intellectual boredom with the elemental core of the sport is telling. Racing is just a small hook that you pin your more important ideal of being new and cutting edge on. You are the kind of person I would characterize as ruining the sport. And that doesn't make me a caveman, a roundhead, or someone who thinks we should all be racing bugeye sprites. But we are very different. I could race Anything and be happy racing. You need racing to incubate something else entirely.

Scott, who doesn't mean this as an attack on Matt or to imply that I don't like him or anything negative at all beyond perhaps a simple disagreement the resolution of which or not will practically impact our lives not at all...

MBellRacing

I agree, I do pin ideals on racing. But that is exactly what changes the sport. The move to smaller engines and turbochargers in Formula 1 created some of the greatest eras of racing, ever. This was a move by idealists that wanted to force top motorsport teams to use smaller motors, thus less fuel (if incorrectly).

I do like to be cutting edge, but you'll find that EVERYONE (yes, everyone) in this sport, and not looking in, is very cutting edge. We're all looking to explore that next big thing, to find a way to go faster with less. The fans are what run the series, but you'd be surprised how many people are interested in seeing technological changes in the sport. I get so much interest in fuel mileage and use of direct injection with even our big Camaro GS.R and GT.R cars. This is almost as much, if not MORE than people ask about the horsepower of the car, the assumed conventional question about a Detroit muscle car. Now, I'm not saying that an alternative fuel class could trounce the fan base of Nascar-affiliated series, Indy, or F1, but with the yuppie demographic expanding almost exponentially, it isn't out of bounds to think that you could create quite a popular "cutting edge" series.

On a tangent, and to reinstate some faith in the sport, I had a nice talk with Jeff Smallwood, one of the higherups at NASCAR/Grand-Am racing. Apparently the production car-based Continental Tire Sports Car Challenge series was aired on tape delay at the same time as an F1 race was aired live. Our viewership was MORE than the F1 race! It also is almost putting the Rolex series under as far as their TV viewership, something that nobody ever expected. The obvious reason: people like watching more relevant cars racing each other. People are getting tired of watching "clean racing" between a bunch of high-tech tube frame cars, and are preferring to see the same Camaro, Mustangs, M3s, Porsches, Subarus, and Challengers that they see rolling down the road risking it all in competition. I've said it before, regardless of where my career takes me, I'll always make sure I'm doing everything I can to secure a ride in CTSCC. It is just way too much fun!!!

-Matt, who thinks alcohol could fuel quite controversial conversations with this bunch.

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

What about hydrogen?
Why isnt this more mainstream?
Too expensive?

Its renewable and cheap, no emissions.
Our former Governator wanted to have a hydrogen freeway system but it got derailed because of big oil and their lobbyists in DC.

We need to move away from electric, its too costly and the waste from all the used laptop batteries is going to cause us another problem in the not too distant future.

There are many automanufacturers out there that have built hydrogen powered vehicles.
BMW and Ford to name a few.

SoTexDC2

I'm not sure what a high speed jerk down is..

No, we don't purposely injure anything. At roundup, we do rope and throw calves in order to tag, castrate, vaccinate, & clip their ears. If you saw this, you'd probably call it inhumane. It's just the way things have been done since the beginning.

Do you know how the slaughter process works? It doesn't involve a gun per se. That video you posted is disturbing. Guy is obviously one of those mentally ill people that enjoys killing things in a gruesome way.

A busted horn is somewhat common. Much of the time, because of the rough country, nobody will know the animal has such an injury until its time for roundup.

Ok, if anyone wants to contribute, make a thread.

descartesfool

Well green technology is not standing still waiting for all the dinausours to become extinct.

Green carbon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPYmg...mbedded#at=166

Wonder what Honda has up its sleeve?

descartesfool

And Porsche likes KERS: http://www.autoblog.com/2011/05/16/n...e-model-range/

"The next generation Porsche 911 will be a significant departure from all previous generations, though to the untrained eye that could be a hot-air boast. The chief novelty of the 991, confirmed for us recently by Porsche sources in Germany, is that the entire range will benefit from a KERS device, such as what was used by a couple of teams in Formula 1 in 2009 and then immediately banned by the FIA for the 2010 season as an unfair advantage, only to be allowed again for this 2011 season.

The Kinetic Energy Recovery System takes brake energy recuperation to a whole new sophisticated level, putting it on reserve for when you want the pedal on the metal for quick overtaking. But it's not stored in any additional onboard battery system – instead, it is meted out via a dedicated special flywheel system.

The chief giveaway that Porsche is definitely planning the KERS strategy is the added wheelbase length of four whole inches together with added vehicle length of 2.75 inches. Just the right amount of distance for incorporating the new flywheel technology between the gearbox and engine.

Though the starter 991 911 Carrera is earmarked to have 350 horsepower from a smaller 3.4-liter flat-six engine, the KERS ingredient will give the car acceleration figures comfortably quicker than the 4.7-second 0-to-60 time of the current 997 911 Carrera. And this direction ensures that the new 911 can still emit less noxious stuff, go faster, go farther on a gallon, and, according to our sources, even weigh around 100 pounds less as Porsche rolls out more and more lightweight materials usage where we've never seen it before."

NIKE SB'd

iTrader: (1)

Racing is racing, as long as people can competitively drive vehicles on race tracks life goes on. Be it alternative fuels, electric or whatever else, the sport will have to evolve. Disliking something because its new is a silly stance to take. I'm sure at one point people thought fuel-injection, disc brakes and independent suspension were crazy inventions and not suited for racing as they were initially underdeveloped. Give it 10-20 years time and there will be electric down force cars capable of much greater performance than anything we've seen today.

sander

Look at the performance statistics. There is no energy in hydrogen. A crap ton of infrastructure changes would have to be implemented too. I remember reading something in a BMW technical magazine that to store hydrogen takes a super insulated storage tank, and that if you used that same tank to store your cup of coffee, it would stay warm for a week or something to that effect.

Edit: I realized I read this article in 2006 when BMW just released the H7 (Hydrogen 7). Technology has probably progressed from that point, so I take back "There is no energy in hydrogen", and replace it with, "there is a lack of potential energy in hydrogen."

MBellRacing

There IS energy in hydrogen. There are a number of perks to the fuel. First off, it can be compressed. Storage techniques are exponentially evolving to better hold more hydrogen molecules in more efficient containers. Hydrogen, contrary to popular belief, is substantially safer than gasoline and other spark ignition liquid fuels. When hydrogen burns, the heat goes directly up, as does the lighter-than-air gas which dissipates vertically rather than spreading across the ground. There is also much more thought going into the standard of puncture resistance in hydrogen containers than has EVER gone into liquid fuel containers.

Hydrogen also has multiple implementations in vehicles. The current obvious use is in hydrogen fuel cell-electric hybrids. The other clever use is to burn it. BMW actually made a hydrogen-gasoline hybrid in the late 70s to prove the technology in which they could burn either gasoline OR hydrogen in the same conventional 5-series engine. They also have the top speed record for a hydrogen car with a V12 internal combustion engine and NOT a hydrogen fuel cell.

There are two European endeavors that should prove to be enormous leaps forward in hydrogen popularity. Norway is creating an all-hydrogen highway spanning across their country using man-made lakes as a source of hydrogen and eventually solar cells for hydrolysis to create self-sustained fuel stations for hydrogen vehicles. The knowledgeable reader would know that it takes a huge amount of energy to crack hydrogen and oxygen from each other in water, but there is a Dutch firm experimenting with solar cells that are as much as 65% efficient (conventional cells average 12%). A small field of them next to a lake could create enough hydrogen to power quite a few hydrogen cars. Add more lakes, more solar fields, more stations, and you have quite an efficient, self-sustained hydrogen infrastructure.

I think hydrogen is a part of the future and I am happy about it. Regardless of my occupation, I am aware that the world is a'changin'. Back to topic, I'll race anything running on whatever it takes to go fast, but there's no reason why we can't start converting street cars and race cars into clean, efficient forms of forward movement.

granracing

It's interesting to watch the medium in which racing is viewed change. I personally am not a fan of watching AMLS on ESPN3 or Xbox, but recognize many younger viewers gravitate to the YouTube-ish forum. I wonder if that'll catch on more or what impact it'll have.

I like the Green initiatives and think it makes racing more interesting. From what I'm hearing, teams like it overall as well and it adds to the strategy games.

descartesfool

I was really impressed with what a bunch of young guys did with that Racing Green Radical SR8, and the adventure in the documentary was a great story.

More of that works for me. They just have to add some sound, cause if you can't hear them racin....fans will get back to textin...

sander

Comparatively speaking, there isn't a whole ton of energy in hydrogen. (This is effectively what I was saying after I edited my original post when realizing I read this article about the H7 almost 6 years ago). Part of the problem with the oil "crisis" is that simply, oil is pretty good stuff! Petrol gasoline has some of the highest specific energy content of any commonly used liquid fuel. Over 3 times that of hydrogen in liquid form. But I guess if you're dealing with the most abundant element on the planet, then whats the big deal, right?



It's not like the fuel will never work, but I think burning it in a traditional fashion is somewhat unappealing with the current technology out there.

It should be noted it does have the best energy to weight ratio of any fuel, which is pretty cool though.

granracing

Aussie V8 Supercar - that's what is right with racing. The best series IMO.

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

I agree with ya there dave.
Nothing better one the planet right now!

chargeR

Really? The grass is always greener I guess. It might interest you guys to know that the V8 Supercars run an 85% ethanol fuel as a (ineffective in my opinion) gesture in favour of environmentalism.

descartesfool

Imagine that, green Aussies. Never would have thought!

and in case you didn't know, ALMS is a big friend of E85.