mdb4879

Time for an update. I recently posted a new thread on another board, so I'm going to copy and paste that. Please forgive me for the redundancy. Also, a note on the RTA bushings. I know it's been foolish of me to out it off, but I now have them ordered and they will be installed before the next event. At the very least, the car was basically stable and very predictable at the last event.

Hey everyone, my name is Matthew and I run a GSR swapped EG hatch prepped by SMF rules at local and semi-local autocrosses in Alabama. I "built" the car over the winter and am dialing it out now with some issues I'd like some help sorting out if y'all don't mind. Here's the current mod list:

1992 Civic CX, rear interior stripped, weighed 2240 with me in it an 5/8 tank of gas (175lbs driver), I've since removed another 20-30lbs from the car
Freshly rebuilt B18C1 with 0.020" over ITR pistons (otherwise stock short of an AEM short ram intake)
Stock USDM GSR trans, non-LSD
2.5" exhaust, hi-flow cat, stock exhaust manifold
8lbs flywheel, stock clutch
Koni Yellows, GC sleeves, 500#f/450#r, front rebound full stiff, rear rebound 1/2 turn from full soft
ASR rear subframe brace and 24mm bar
EBay RLCA's (not a fan, but they have their use)
Stock brakes all around, Hawk HPS front pads, ATE Super Blue fluid
DC P/S rack
Heavy (17lbs) 15x8 +20 Rotas with half tread BFG Rivals

I had been having violent oversteer issues with the car, and unfortunately slid it into a light pole at the 2nd local event after my front tires got really warm and grippy. I was able to swap everything into a new chassis before event 3 and made a few changes and the car feels much more stable now, although maybe a little tail happy. I'll have to get a professional driver's opinion.

After trying multiple things to tame the rear end, I'm currently settled on 0 toe in the front, 1/8" toe in in the rear, rear bar full soft with the end links in the hole closest to the center of the car for the least leverage (the advantage of which I spoke of the eBay LCAs was multiple holes for the sway bar end links), I can't remember the exact numbers anymore, but I want to say the front of the car is 5.5" of the ground from the bottom of the rocker and the rear is 5". I rake looks odd, but it seemed to help from the added load to the rear and the extra camber in the back. I don't have any other alignment number to give, but as soon as I get my hands on a camber/caster gauge I will. Stock camber arms for now, so natural camber from the lowering. The trailing arm bushings are worn, and I know that may be adding to my issues, but I have a new pair ordered and will have them installed by the next event along with rear camber links so I can raise the car and add negative camber to the rear.

Now that the car is manageable, I'm still not impressed with it's times. At the last event we ran a fast handling course that ran 45s and I was behind 1.2s from a turbo Mini Cooper S in my class and 1.3s from a national champion in an STS 1989 Civic Hatch. So here's where I'd like to get some opinions. I'm considering getting a set of Konig Dial-ins in 15x9 +36 with 225/45/15 for the front and 15x8 +25 with the same 205/50/15 Rivals for the rear. I'm sure I'm going to need to stiffen the front to keeping from being overly oversteer prone so I'm thinking of going to 550# springs for the front. Even with my current setup, I've had one or two people say I should at least run a stock front sway bar, but I enjoy how it feels without a front bar and I feel like adding a front bar will cause a loss of grip in the front and that a better approach would be to gain grip in the rear. What do y'all think? After I do the rear trailing arm bushings and camber links I'm going to try to borrow a pyrometer to see how even I'm currently using the tire. Beforehand, what's a good number to start with? It seems like between 2-2.5° is usually recommended, but it's hard to say without knowing where I'm already at and where in the tire the heat is building. Are there any other measures I can take to calm down the rear end? How does the handling change with more weight in the rear? Does it swing out more because there's more inertia pushing out the rear? Or will it grip more because the rear suspension frequency is relatively softer? I did the math for my current front and rear frequencies. I can find my numbers when I get home if you want to know them. With such a strong rear bar, would it be a good idea to drop to 400# rear springs? Or would a softer bar be more beneficial because the current bar is acting too strongly against the springs? I'd like to keep the current rear bar setup if possible. Also, I may have the car corner balanced before the next event. I'm curious as to how this will affect the handling. Will it be a major difference? Or will it just be more predictable and consistent between left and right hand turns?

xotic_crx

I'm going to say a lot of it sounds like driving style. I fought similar issues when I was fairly noobish and it turned out to be my braking points and harshness causing it. Seat time helped.

I run a very similar setup to you, and when I was on regular Yellow's I ran 450/550 and it was nice and could rotate with a little left foot braking or lift-off. That was on a 22mm solid rear ST bar and an HF front sway (smaller than stock). Without lsd I wouldn't run a front bar. The lower rear rake will help keep it from rotating.

Replace your bushings by the way lol.

mdb4879

I'm sure no front bar and my 24mm rear bar add immensely to the issue, lol. But ultimately I think the car will be fastest if I work with what I have. I do believe driving style could be part of it. I do tend to be more aggressive, and I would like for the rear to come out on corner entry, but not too fast. I'd like for it to come out in a slow controlled manner so that I can get back on the gas and pull the car the rest of the way through. Currently it's almost impossible to trail brake. If you trailbrake, or if you transition quickly at the end of a slalom where you have to start braking for a turn it'll bite you hard. It's not bad on a more open part of a course where you can keep picking up speed. But if it comes out much at all you HAVE to hit the gas or else it'll come around. If you're in a position where there's no room to accelerate again and you have to slow down, you just have to let it go. I got better the other day with being smoother and coming in slower so I could gas it through to pull the car through, along with making adjustments to the rear which combined helped immensely. But I think it may still be too tail happy and 225's up front will only worsen it. I did catch a ride with the pro in his STS Civic, which happens to be set up quite similar to my car. I could feel it stayed planted better than mine. He is a smoother driver, but regardless I caught on to a few things his car can do that mine can't. He could actually brake going into turns and brake mid corner. The rear would walk out a bit, just enough to where he'd have to straighten the wheels but not necessarily counter steer. If he were to try the same thing in my car I guarantee he would've spun at several points on course.

I was able to get it controlled and pulled all I could out of the car by the end of the day (there might have been a couple tenths out there from one or two choppy places, but I don't think there was much), but the time gap really surprised me. I'm not anywhere near the best driver, but I can be a fast driver. Usually if I don't think I can get any more out of a car then there isn't much more to be had. I don't always get there, but when I don't, I at least know that there was more time out there and can usually spot where I could've picked up more time. Even if I couldn't actually make myself do it. Maybe at the last event I had an off day and didn't realize it, but 1.2s is a massive gap. Maybe it's that I'm on used tired and it's possible they've been heat cycled too many times and have gotten hard. I'm not sure, but either something is fundamentally wrong with me, the car, or both, lol.

xotic_crx

Choppy throttle control plays into the control factor. Sudden lift off unloads the rear, and mixed with turn-in and braking, can cause spins.

You mention tires, how old are you talking? When I first moved to R comps I had bought some used ones that were very heat cycled and made for a very loose car.

Also don't know if I missed it or what but what are you running for rear camber?

mdb4879

My problem so far isn't as much that it comes out when I lift off throttle, it's how fast it comes out making it really hard to catch. I'm not sure on actual numbers yet, but I'll get some before the next event. Right now all I can say is I have the natural camber from lowering on stock arms. The rear is about 5" from the ground to the rocker, not the pinch weld.

I'm actually not sure just how old the tires are, but I'm thinking they should only be a year old. I got them from the same pro driver in the STS car. He ran STF last year and got new tires from winning tours and I bought these in the winter with half tread. I did store them outside, so that and the beating he gave them might be part of it. They're still the stickiest tire I've had on one of my cars, but I don't know if they can compete with these brand new Star Specs, Rival S, RE71, etc.

Matt_EH3

Keep in mind that no matter what alignment setup you have, your rear toe will vary a lot based on suspension load if your RTA bushings are in poor shape. Heck, with bushings that are in good shape, you get strange variations in toe, but at least, they are predictable.

Just look at it this way: your rear wheels are "adjusting" as you corner, accelerate and brake. With worn bushings, from one section to the other (and even on the same corner from one run to the other), you enter corners with a different rear alignment setup. In other words, you have a rear tire pointing in a direction it should not. I fully understand that you can get a few surprises during a run (and need to drive more aggressively).

If I were you, I would try to fix one thing at a time. Do the bushings and see what happens at the next event. It's easier to sort the car out after.

Note: I've been out of the autocross game for a while, but can't you run r-comps in SM? Tires should be your #1 priority expense-wise.

mattbatson

if you are getting unpredictable oversteer it is because there is a mechanical issue

and it sounds like it is probably your RTA bushings

highly recommend sphericals...have them on my car and I noticed an improvement immediately

mdb4879

I see what you're saying, and it makes sense. The bushings are already shipped, so I'll have it done by the next event.

Yes, I could run R comps in SM. This year, though, I'm running a near limitless street tire class so I'll have people to play with. At out of town events I switch to SMF, but I don't have money for R comps or for springs/shocks and whatnot to compensate for the extra grip. Next year I might, though. Regardless, with how the car is now, when it's dialed in I expect it should be at least as fast as the pro's STS car. Whether or not I can make it go that fast is another matter, but the car itself should be at least just as fast. We're running a similar setup, but I have 50hp on him. So I'd like to be able to bridge the gap without relying on R comps just yet.

mdb4879

It wasn't that it was unpredictable, just very violent. I'm not sure that sphericals can be run in SMF. Can someone chime in on that topic? The rules are unclear to me, and I've seen people run sphericals for their camber links, but I'm not sure about the trailing arms

Xian

As other's have said, fix the stuff that's broken and then tune the car. In no particular order:

Sphericals are 100% legal for SMF. Hell, custom arms/uprights/etc are legal. It's pretty much wide open as long as the parts bolt to the chassis in the same place as the OE piece.

Add a front bar. The biggest reason the STS/STC/ST/WTF-ever EF's don't run one (or if they do it's the tiny one off an HF) is because they don't have and can't run an LSD.

Add front spring rate. 500# isn't where I'd be... aim for 650-750 IMO.

Add rear spring rate. 500-550 is more in the range, IMO.

Run more front wheel. The 225 street tires do better on a 15x9 than a 15x8. It'll also let you lower the tire pressure for more mechanical grip. The rear doesn't "need" a 15x8. Narrower is better back there (down to a 15x7) if you're running a 205 street tire.

Get the car aligned. Camber and toe play huge roles in how the car handles. HUGE.

Lower the front of your car. 5.5" is way the hell too high unless you need the ride height for street driving. I'd aim for zero to 3/4" rear rake depending on the rest of the alignment setup.

mdb4879

Thanks for the input, I'll be sure to follow the advice. Just a few comments and questions to clarify some things.

I guess I should mention I don't plan on keeping this chassis forever for competition. It's been a bit of a test bed and so far from the little I've gathered I've decided to make the most of what I have and in a year or two sell it to buy/build a K24 EF hatch. I personally don't see an EG being a Nationally competitive car without far more work than an EF. So to start, for now I'm going to stick with OEM trailing arm bushings and no LSD to save money. Not having an LSD is my main reason for not running a front bar. Do you still recommend I run a front bar?

For spring rates, I'm currently on Koni Yellows, so I don't think they could handle much over 550# for very long, could they? If I go to the race shocks, it'll most likely be next season. Then my spring rate options will be much more open.

If I do get to stiffen my front rates, which I definitely will if I switch to a 225, should I be fine with my current rear bar? Or is it too much of a bar without having a front bar?

Being that a slight stretch on a tire adds sidewall support which allows for lower tire pressures as you stated, with my current setup would it be wise to keep running the 15x8 in the rear since I seem to need as much rear grip as possible? I should have some definitive numbers for you in a week or two, but with whatever my camber and ride height are currently, I run 30psi up front and 28psi in the rear. That's the lowest pressure for each I can run before I begin to lose grip from rollover. Idk if that seems low to you or not, but I might also need to mention that our current venue is sealed asphalt which doesn't provide much grip.

I've been in a battle with myself over ride height. It seems like I read that Nate in his DSP ITR ran 4" from the ground in the front, but iirc that was measured to the pinch weld. Which sits about 1/2" lower than the rocker. So about 4.5" to the rocker is what I should aim for? There's a local fabricator who deals a lot with Hondas I talk to every now and then, and he claims that's way to low, and even 5" to the rocker is too low for him. But he deals a lot more with road racing and doesn't really touch autocross much. I've had other people say there's a difference between what'll handle well and what'll be fast around a track. Some say that in some situations, the lower center of gravity outweighs the funky suspension geometry. Any opinions?

The rear (at least with my current wheels and springs) can't go any lower. I already scrub a bit at the limit and scrub a lot if I have a passenger. I'm definitely not a fan of the 15x8 +20 and there's no way a Hoosier would fit under there. I was hoping raising it 1/4" to 1/2" and running a +25 offset would remedy that so if I choose, I could run a Hoosier. That would be next year, though, as I'd have to run more spring. So would that height be too high? I'm sure a 15x7 with a higher offset would help remedy that clearance issue. Would the "up to” 3/4" rear rake you speak of be higher in the rear, or lower in the rear relative to the front?

mdb4879

Also, with me in the car and 5/8 tank of gas, here were my weight and suspension frequency numbers I came up with before taking the addition 20-30lbs out of the new chassis. This is with the 500f/450r setup with no front bar and the rear ASR 24mm bar on full soft. The bar wasn't taken into account for the numbers, but it should give you an idea of the added stiffness when cornering. So technically the rear will be stiffer than my numbers.

170lbs driver
Total weight - 2240 (I can imagine the scale was hovering between 2240 and 2220 based on the front/rear split)
Front weight - 1420
Rear weight - 800

Estimated 65lbs unspring weight per corner and assumed the corners on each end were even for simplicity.

Front corner sprung weight - 645
Rear corner sprung weight - 335
Front frequency - 1.85-1.87Hz (I can't remember the reasoning why I wrote down two numbers)
Rear frequency - 2.68Hz

10cjennings

iTrader: (1)

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mdb4879

Yeah, I know. I'm crazy. That's just my personal opinion. This is my first EG and I've got to say I love it, but with so far I think it'd be more difficult to make one Nationally competitive. First is the weight. A base model EF could weigh a fair bit less. Yes, it'll be underweight, but once you're underweight you can replace that weight with things to stiffen the chassis or ballast to better the weight distribution.

Also, the rear wing for an EG will be more of a hassle because of the split tailgate/hatch glass. You have to support the wing with the glass, which I don't think is as good as supporting it to the hatch. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's just my personal opinion about it.

I don't guess I have much else of a reason to veer from the EG other than that, though. Don't get me wrong, I'll still consider an EG. I just think an EF would be a better start. Regardless, I probably won't develop this chassis too much just because it'd be much cheaper for me to sell the car and buy one with a K24 already in then make my own changes rather than trying to do a K swap from scratch. The K and B weigh roughly the same, but the K will have better corner balancing due to the majority of the weight being opposite from the driver.

mdb4879

I guess I should rethink my wording. IMO, an EG can be competitive in a National level, but in the same hands at full prep an EF should be a faster car. Even if it's by a couple tenths of a second. That's all it takes

Xian

Oh, didn't realize you didn't have a diff. IMO, you'd still be better off with a front bar (and wheelspin) than without one. Why? Because you're not able to run enough front spring or shock to make up for not having the bar (which is what a well prepped EF will do).

Yup, OTS Koni's won't handle those rates. IMO, looks for used 3011/2812's or a decent monotube. The extra compression adjustment is worth the price tag. If you can't swing the more expensive options (and I understand if that's the case, it's a bunch of cash) then go with the Race shocks. Having driven and setup cars as well as trying cars with/without a front bar, the car without a front bar on Race shocks won't ever feel as crisp or turn-in as well as the one either with a front bar or high-end shocks.

How much rear bar you use is also a function of the rest of the setup. My car was "very loose" with only a 25mm on the rear... but it only had 1* of rear camber.

That seems pretty low to me for a 15x8. I ended up in the 32-34psi range on 15x9's but ran at sites with better (but not awesome) grip. I prefer a 15x7 or 15x7.5 (TRM has a nice option) since the wheels are typically offset further into the car as well as being lighter.

I ended up within probably 0.25" of Nate and don't think it was too low. Having a lower CG as well as getting deeper into the steep portion of the camber curve are both benefits. There's not enough natural bumpsteer in the chassis to really worry about, IMO.

SMF allows flares/cut fenders. Go get that sawzall and clearance stuff OR get the right size wheel.

And yes, I'm talking about the rear level with the front or slightly higher.

There's not that much weight different between the EF and EG... yes, there's a difference but it's not enough to completely scrap building an EG in favor of an EF, IMO. Additionally, the EG is a decent amount stiffer than the flexi-flyer EF chassis.

Oh, and I don't know anyone who's wanted a wing on an EG who couldn't sort out how to build a legal one.

mdb4879

You may be right about the weight. I was thinking with an early base model EF weighing about 1940lbs and my basically stripped EG weighing around 2020-2040lbs that the EF had more potential for weight reduction. A B or K swap weighs about 100lbs more than a D series, so my "stripped" car would weigh about the same and a full interior EF. But I'm sure there isn't as much to take out from an EF. The lighter doors are a benefit, but that's already taken into account in the initial weight. The only things the EF has to remove to get it on the same reduction level as my EG are the bumper supports, rear interior, battery, spare tire, and the evaporator core. I do have a fixed back bucket seat, but I honestly think that with the rails it weighs close to the same as a stock seat. So the EF could have 75-100lbs (depending on gas) to take out before you have the same to do to each car (removing the rest of the HVAC, making your own dash, lighter seats, suspension, brakes, etc.). Plus my wheels probably weigh 15-20lbs more than stock collectively. I'm not sure, it'd be interesting to see how both fully and equally prepped would weigh before you start adding ballast.

So far I've been looking at this car as an STS car with more power. Which may be evident in how I speak of it, lol. The local fabricator said a stock front bar probably only adds 50lbs or rate, but I think that's just a somewhat random number he threw out there and I'm jot sure if he meant spring rate or wheel rate. My quarrel I've been having with myself about it is that I've heard in the STS community running no bar or an HF bar was more personal preference about how crisp turn in is. For me, this is the first car I've have with coilovers and "high" spring rates, so relative to what I've had in the past I think it's very responsive and am currently pleased with it. But I have yet to try much else with the setup.

I think a more proper sized wheel would be a better option. There's probably not much point in cutting the quarters on this car, lol. Although I do have a pretty aggressive pull on the rear, and you don't even want to see what I did to the front. I would've been better off cutting the front instead, lol. Anyways, I'm kind of afraid of what will happen to the car if I get more tire up front and narrow the track in the rear. I guess I'll tend to the known issues first and see how it does at the next event to see how I feel about it. I was set on an 8" rear wheel, but now I may reconsider.

Xian

Just make sure that the stuff you're planning/doing is actually legal. I don't remember bumper supports or "making your own dash" as being legal FWIW.

Oh, I agree with looking at it as an STS car with more power. I had a B16 powered SMF EF that was essentially an ST car with a bit more power, bit more weight, and a diff. IMO, you're overly focused on what a top-prep ST Civic/CRX is setup like even though you're not in a position to mirror that complete setup. i.e. you're not running a front bar but you're also not running the same amount of camber or similar shocks or ride height, etc, etc. Your local guy is right that the front bar isn't a huge rate. I want to say the rate is higher than 50# for the EG/DC options but not by a ton (maybe 65-70?)... but remember that rate is in one wheel bump so double it for roll. That gives you something like 120-140# of spring rate in roll which is a pretty damn big percentage of your total spring rate if you're "just" on 500's up front.

I ran 15x9 with 225/45 Rivals up front and 15x7.5's with 205/50 Rivals in the rear. The fronts fit with a roll and slight tug. The rears fit fine with just a roll. If you have the right size stuff, it'll fit pretty easily...





This was the sort of ride height I ran my 2nd STX ITR at (ran it in SMF locally)... nothing funky with suspension geometry:

mdb4879

I haven't checked the rules thoroughly in a while, so I should probably brush up on them. I really have no idea about the bumper support, but it seems like I heard people talking about you have to have a dash, but the rules don't specify it has to be a factory dash. So some people make a dash out of foam board. But I haven't looked into it, though. Either way, I don't plan on making one. I like having factory front interior and functional heat. (Although I guess in the summer I could cap off my heater lines and save 5 lbs in coolant, lol)

Your cars actually look about as low as mine. The rear looks the same, but it's hard to tell on the front. I pulled my front fenders out so far they actually stick out at a 90° angle almost. So I have a pretty big wheel gap now. I just wanted to make sure I had room to grow to a 15x9. I'm pretty sure that even if my rear wheels were in another 5mm it'd solve a lot of that clearance issue. Idk about with slicks, though. But as I said, I can't prep the car for Hoosiers this year and even if I could there's no one to be competitive with locally so I'm better off having fun in a street tire class. I'm just trying to adhere to SMF rules in the basic prep of the car.

Xian

Something to remember is that "If It Doesn't Say You Can, Then You Can't". If it says you have to have a dash then you need one... but it doesn't give you free reign to make a new dash (you'd have to use stock). Same thing with the heat; unless there's an allowance to remove those pieces (or they were optional from the manufacturer) then you can't touch them.

My ITR was ~4" to the jackpoint IIRC. The EF Civic was a little lower (maybe 3.75" to the jackpoint?). The ITR ended up being zero rake whereas the EF had ~0.5" of rake (rear higher). A friend of mine runs a swapped EG locally with 15x9's (225 Rivals) up front and he got them under the fenders with a roll and a light pull. It'll fit but it's tight and requires the right offset wheel...

mdb4879

Yeah, my offset is terrible for autocross. My fronts didn't need near as much of a pull as I gave them, but I wanted room to grow to a wider tire and wheel. So I said f@&% it and pulled the hell out of them.

What do you consider the back point, so I know where you're taking your measurement from?

Xian

The jack point at the pinch weld just behind the front wheels and ahead of the rear wheels.

mdb4879

Do you measure to the pinch weld itself, or the bottom of the rocker? (Not the molding, but the steel) Or to the point with the hole in it that's closer to the center of the car near the subframe? (I may have to take a picture of what I'm talking about there)

Xian

I measure to the JACK POINT on the pinch weld. It's the piece of metal that sticks down a little... you know, where the jack goes.

Edit:

mdb4879

Ok, thanks for clarifying. I haven't ever really considered those jack points because my luck is usually that they bend if you jack up on them, lol. The spare tire jack has a slot that goes around them so that doesn't happen. Anyways, I've been measuring to the rocker where the pinch weld goes to. So by that the front of my car is about an inch higher than yours. Once my camber gauge comes in this week I'm going to see where I'm at currently then see how much camber gain there is just from an inch drop when you're already lowered where I am.