FijiBlue

Greetings All

I have a totally stock 2004 Civic LX that I am starting to use for autocross and HPDE on a road track. I also drive it on the road in Florida but it is not my primary daily driver. Cold weather is not a factor, but unexpected rain is common. I intend to run SCCA stock class for autocross so I need to keep my wheel size stock, my wheel size is 15x6.

I want to get better tires, my stock tire size is 195/60-15. I have narrowed my choices down to:

Falken Azeni RT-615 205/50-15 (4.7% deviation from stock) $72.00 at Vulcantires Great tire, I am worried about tire size issues and wet handling on the highway. Short tread life is not a problem.

Kumho Ecsta SPT 205/55-15 (1.4% deviation from stock) $61.00 at Tire Rack A highly recommended tire, more streetable than the Azeni, but not as sticky.

Yokohama AVS ES100 195/60-15 $79.00 at Tire Rack One of the few performance street tires in my stock size. (Tire Rack also has Sumitomo HTR 200's)


Opinions, corrections, and alternate suggestions are most appreciated.


I want to avoid having two sets of wheels/tires if I can. I prefer to have the car handle the same all of the time. If I did have two sets, I would prefer to drive to events on the performance tires and not have to haul them to the track. If I get the Azeni's I will eventually end up with them too smooth for the road but still good for the track; then I will pretty much have to carry them with me unless I sell them.

I also wonder if switching to stock Honda alloy wheels would be worthwhile. I have read that alloys improve handling because they are are less flexible. What information I could find indicates that a stock Honda steel wheel weighs ~18 lbs and stock alloys weigh about 22 lbs. (I admit that I like the cost effectiveness of $47 steelies)

My next question is; 'What is the offset on a stock 15x6 4/100 wheel for a 2004 Civic LX?' One source implied 37-45 mm was an acceptable range.

Miatas, Accords, and older Civics have alloy wheels that include the 15x6 4/100 size, are any of these recommendable?

The aftermarket forged wheels are beyond my budget, but is a reduction from 18 lbs per wheel to 14 lbs per wheel dramatic enough to be worthwhile in a stock class? What about reducing the weight to 8.2 lbs with Volks?

SCCA solo rules for stock allow a 0.25" offset variation from stock. Is using longer bolts and spacers with stock wheels to widen your track dimensions by 0.5" worthwhile or a bad idea?

Thanks Very Much,

FijiBlue

I have lurked on this forum for a long time and want to thank you all for the great advice and data that I have gotten.

TunerN00b

I'm no expert, but I'll try to throw some answers in here, since no one else has done so yet.

On tires, none of them listed if you want to be competetive. Stock class allows R compounds. I'd attend an event or practice, and talk with the other people who will be in your class, and see what they have to say. You really couldn't drive the R compound tires on the street though.

If you don't want to use seperate wheels for events, then the Azenis are probably your best bet. My first set was used for 5k street miles, 1 HPDE, and 3 autocrosses, and probably had just under 50% of the tread left when they were stolen. So don't expect more than 10 to 12k street miles from them. If those are out of the budget, then the Ecsta SPT is probably worth considering, as I have only heard good things about them but never ran them personally.

Honestly, I'd say carry an extra set of wheels. Nothing would ruin a Sunday morning like getting a flat on the way to an autocross, and having been using the race tires on the street at the time.

Afraid I don't know too much about stock Civic wheels, but once you find your stock offset, then you can start looking into wheels. I use a set of Rota Slipstreams on my Integra, as they were cheap, light, and easily replaceable should I bend one during an HPDE. I'd cry if I took a set of Volks to the track and messed one up. I'm mount the damaged Rota on the wall at home in pride and never think twice about the cost of replacement, since even a pair of Slipstreams are cheaper than an HPDE. I think I paid $840 total for 4 16x7 Slipstreams with 205-40/16 RT-615 Azenis mounted, though I wish I had gone with the 215-45/16s instead.

In regards to spacers, are longer studs legal? If they aren't, I wouldn't run that large of a spacer. I also don't think 0.5" of track width is even worth making a deal out of. Now, when you can take 4 runs and have all of them be within 0.25 seconds of each other, then maybe its time to start looking for that last 0.1s with little details like a wider track, lighter wheels, etc...

rockdude14

id figure out how competitive you want to be
and what class

not sure the competitivness of a civic in stock

but for stock lightweight wheels and r-comps are a must
if you want to use street tires go to sts and do some other mods too

if your just out to have fun
i would think of what mods you want to do
and where you are in the learning curve

learning on r-comps is very hard
especially when you through in adjustable shocks if your trying to be competive

i started auto-x on r-comps
went to sts and got rotas and azenis and have probably learned 10x as much

jsi

Dont worry about being competitive, or things like saving a few lbs on wheels etc. Unless your tires are corded, just go and do a few events on what you have now. Your outlook on things WILL change dramatically after that...

jetydosa

A 2004 Civic LX will get rolled in HS no matter what (Minis), so you might as well just run whatever you want and have fun. I wouldnt even bother with the expense of r-comps. Id just run Azenis and call it a day.

FijiBlue

Thanks for responding, I am confused about:

["Stock class allows R compounds."] I don't want to sound uppity but the 2006 Solo Rulebook says:

Stock Category

E. No racing tire or recap (on any casing) may be used.

H. Each tire must have non-zero measurable tread depth (i.e.,
points where it is possible to obtain positive measurement values)
as described in Section 3.3.D. Tires may not have cord
visible at any time during competition.


Maybe this is a new rule? Am I misunderstanding it? If R-comps are allowed, I will rethink my strategy.


[Honestly, I'd say carry an extra set of wheels. Nothing would ruin a Sunday morning like getting a flat on the way to an autocross, and having been using the race tires on the street at the time.]

That's good advice. A few days after my first HPDE at Sebring I found a nail in my tire. I insist on believing that I picked it up after the track day, makes me nervous to think otherwise. I have inspected my tires after getting to the site ever since. I was planning to have a matching spare instead of the emergengy donut. But if racing slicks are allowed I should figure out a way to haul an extra set.

[In regards to spacers, are longer studs legal?]

"Wheel spacers are permitted, provided the resultant combination
complies with the offset requirements of this section. Wheel studs,
lug nuts, and/or bolt length may be changed."


[If they aren't, I wouldn't run that large of a spacer. I also don't think 0.5" of track width is even worth making a deal out of. Now, when you can take 4 runs and have all of them be within 0.25 seconds of each other, then maybe its time to start looking for that last 0.1s with little details like a wider track, lighter wheels, etc... ]

More good advice. Thanks

[id figure out how competitive you want to be
and what class]

I thought I wanted Stock, but STS might be better for me. I assumed that everyone would have all the bolt on mods and I would be even more outgunned.

[not sure the competitivness of a civic in stock]

Certainly not the big dog in the yard.

[but for stock lightweight wheels and r-comps are a must
if you want to use street tires go to sts and do some other mods too

if your just out to have fun
i would think of what mods you want to do
and where you are in the learning curve]

I am out to improve my skills. I am not trying to be a contender, I want to keep it stock and spend my money on girls. I would go with wider wheels if I went STS, 15x6 offers limited choices in wheels and tires.

[learning on r-comps is very hard
especially when you through in adjustable shocks if your trying to be competive]

Why is it harder than street tires?

[i started auto-x on r-comps
went to sts and got rotas and azenis and have probably learned 10x as much ]

Thanks for your input.

[Dont worry about being competitive, or things like saving a few lbs on wheels etc. Unless your tires are corded, just go and do a few events on what you have now. Your outlook on things WILL change dramatically after that...]

I have been to a few and my tires are becoming a limiting factor, they are OE all-weather M+S. I heard that the first 2 things to improve on your car was tires and the nut behind the wheel.

[A 2004 Civic LX will get rolled in HS no matter what (Minis), so you might as well just run whatever you want and have fun. I wouldnt even bother with the expense of r-comps. Id just run Azenis and call it a day.]

I think the same woud happen if I did STS with it stock. I want the Azeni's but I am concerned about the fact that they are almost 5% too small and I read that it could cause problems.


Thanks for your time and advice. Like most good answers, some more questions have arisen.

FijiBlue

Jack Black

If you're just getting started, just get some decent daily driver type tires and run on them. No matter what class you're in, you're going to get rolled for the first year or two. Once you figure out what you want to do, you're probably going to want to get a second set of wheels and tires no matter what class you run in.

Regarding the R-compound tires mentioned previously, there are many DOT-approved competition tires out there that are theoretically street legal and thus legal for stock class autocross. Look here for a few examples. Thing is, if you actually did drive them regularly on the street, you'd probably only get a couple thousand miles out of them. So most people who are serious about stock class autocross competition have a second set of wheels with the R-comp tires on them.

What part of Florida are you in?

FijiBlue

Thanks, now I understand. I did not know that Hoosier had DOT approved tires. (and I thought I had done my homework.)

If the Azenis arent too small, I think they are best for me at this time.

I live near Sebring. I am planning to be at the practice day in Ft Myers on Feb 3, and hope to make it up to Brooksville sometime soon.


Thanks,
FijiBlue

rockdude14

r-comps (atleast as305s) are harder to learn on because they are in no way similar to street tires

street tires will audibly tell you when you push on them to hard
they tend to slide and still maintain some traction

with the r comps they will not squill at all
once you pushed them to far and they started to slide the car was very hard to recover with

with street tires you have a much wider room for error even with somthing like the azenis


and what ever class you compete in ppl are going to blow you away who did every mod they can

i really like sts
it allows me to do some of the bolts ons i want without having to have a race car
plus you dont have to pay 200$ a tire to be slightly competitive
learning to drive is still the hardest thing to do

i did everything in reverse order in the beginning i though it was the parts that made me go faster (cause they did help every time i got new ones), than once i had all those it was about setup(shocks, tire pressures, ect) now im finally getting to the part that really matters ME.

if you want to run azenis or a street tire id go to sts
it will allow you to do more mods if you want
and the times between sts and stock will be pretty close
plus you dont have to watch annoying minis beat you all the time because all the politic crap that went with them (they should have been in DS for the love of god

edit*
also if you are going to street spec tire
there are some other good sts tires
Yokohama Advan Neovas
Falken Azenis RT-615
Falken Azenis RT-215
Hankook Ventus R-S2 Z212
Kumho Ecsta MX

there will be differences
probably unnoticed by most but all have been run at national competions

id get the biggest wheels and tires you can fit

Modified by rockdude14 at 9:49 AM 1/26/2007


Modified by rockdude14 at 9:50 AM 1/26/2007

gabebauman

Azenis

FijiBlue

I think STS is for me. Then I can use a 16" wheel with a 215/45-16 Azeni 615 which is only 2.5% smaller than stock. I think it will fit without rubbing from what I have gathered from other posts and other sources. That will help when I get back on the Sebring track. (I just love that 3.7 miles of concrete!)

Thanks for the info on R-comps and HS vs STS.

The Minis I saw were eating up the course when I was there.

Does anyone have an opinion on Sport Edition Wheels? They seem inexpensive, does that mean they are crappy?

Thanks,

FijiBlue

jetydosa

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rockdude14 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">rplus you dont have to watch annoying minis beat you all the time because all the politic crap that went with them (they should have been in DS for the love of god

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Why do you think the base Mini should be in DS?? You could make the argument that the S should be in DS and maybe the base in GS, but no way the base should be in HS.


Anyway, like others have said, you will get killed in stock class anyway, so might as well use a grippy street tire that is :
1- cheaper
2- better to "learn on"

Any of the street tires listed above will do just fine. STS might be a better fit for you anyway, most of those street tires are dirt cheap in 205/50-15, get some 15" Rotas and call it a day


EDIT - saw fijiblue new post 16"s with 215/45-16 are a good, although more expensive choice as well.

rockdude14

i was always in gs (integra gsr)
ya i meant the s in DS and the reg in GS

i mean common 210?hp supercharged with an LSD
that is DS

GS was neons and tegs
a cooper s is nothing like GS

jetydosa

The S only has ~170hp, and did not have an LSD until 2006. Right? Not sure about the JCW

THe Mini is certainly the overdog in GS, but the ITR and BMWs I think would give it a hard time in DS.

Sorry to get OT

FijiBlue

Thanks, I really appreciate being able to tap into all this knowlege and experience, it is really helpful to me. I will be away from the comp for the weekend so please don't feel like I am ignoring anyone.


Thanks alot

FijiBlue

hybridmoments

you will probably be better off in the long run in STS.

1. you'd be running Azenis. In stock you'd have to run R comps to compete with the rest of the field. azenis are much cheaper then a 2nd set of rims and R comps

2. Stock class, those guys may run stock suspension , but the dampers are revalved very stiff to make up for not being able to change the spring rate. so you'd have to put some money into that area.

3. if you are running on the track and doing HPDE's you will eventually want to run some stiffer springs and dampers. if you are running in STS this is not a problem at all. throw on some Konis and some custom spring rate ground controls and you are good to go in STS and for HPDEs.


also, you may want to look into a tire choice that has a smaller diameter then the 16's. the gearing on your car isn't the best. a 205/50/15 would drop your redline mph in 2nd gear down about 2mph which wouldn't hurt. also the weight of the 15 rim and tire combo compared to the 16's is lower.
most inexpensive 16" rims are 15lbs and heavier. where a 15x7 like the falken hanabi is only 11 lbs and like $90 each.
only advantage to the 16's would be the extra 0.4" of treadwidth on the tires compared to the 205/50/15

http://www.edgeracing.com

2004 civic Lx
1st 3.462
2nd 1.87
Final Drive 4.11

1989 Civic Si
1st 3.25
2nd 1.89
Final Drive 4.25

mos

The deviation from stock tire diameter may not be a bad thing. You may want it. With an LX transmission you probably want as small as you can get. And if you did the multiplication for those percentages you can throw them out the window. For real diameter you need to visit the tire maker's web site and see what they list. Or better yet use actual measurements from real life tires.

nsxtasy

If I were in your situation, I would get the 195/60-15 ES100 and use it for street driving and autocrossing. I would avoid the Azenis because rain is so common in Florida.

If and when I gained enough autocross experience that I needed the competitiveness of better tires and didn't need the learning feedback from street tires, I would get a second set of wheels and put some R comps on them (and I would take R comp tire availability into account when deciding in a wheel size). Frankly, it doesn't sound like you're there yet.

hybridmoments

falken azenis RT-615



205/50/15 , OD 23.2 , WEIGHT 20.8 , NOTES Reincorced sidewalls


215/45/16 , OD 23.6 , WEIGHT 21.7 , NOTES (no mention of being reinforced)


the 205/50/15 are definitely a stiff tire. never had experience with the 215/45/16 but according to falken the 205/50/15 is reinforced, so that might be your best bet for OD, weight, and responsiveness

hybridmoments

if you want a decent all around tire that would really help out your cars gearing i'd suggest these

http://www.hondamarketplace.co...29152

those are actually my old setup i had sold to that honda-tech member. only autox'ed on them once. defintely not as grippy as the Azenis at 280 treadwear rating . they are amazing tires in the rain though. i could push them alot harder then the azenis. of course they are 10/32" tread depth with lots of void!!!!
but at 21.1" outer diameter that may really be beneficial to your 115HP 2450lb car. plus they are at least 1" wider then the azenis, and still STS legal. very light also.

if the toyo T1r was as grippy as the azenis you would see everyone running those 225/40/14.

ShaunRR

I've never had a problem with my azenis in the rain.

nsxtasy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rochesterricer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've never had a problem with my azenis in the rain.</TD></TR></TABLE>

They aren't necessarily going to cause a problem, but they just don't grip as well in rain as street tires like the SPT, ES100, F1 GS-D3, etc. The Azenis is an awesome tire for those who want to use the same tire for autocross or the track as they do on the street, as long as they don't have to worry about treadwear or wet traction. But compared with most other good street tires, they don't last that long and they're not as good in rain. That's a simple fact.

Remember - different folks have different needs. Florida gets more rain than most other places in the country, sometimes unexpectedly, and someone in Florida may care more about rain traction than someone in a drier climate. Just like someone who drives 30-40K miles a year may care more about treadlife than someone who only uses his car for track events.

The advantage of having an extra set of wheels, when you're ready for it, is that you can have two different tires for different purposes, instead of trying to make a single tire fit all of your needs, some of them better than others.

hybridmoments

another option that you may be more comfortable in the "rain" with, and somewhat close to Azenis performance would be the Hankook Ventus Z212

you can get those in 225/45/15
8" tread width, and only 23" in diameter.
again. the Azenis is going to give you the best grip out of all these tires. unless you want to move up to a 17" wheel and spend some $$$$ on some Yokohama Advan Neova


http://www.edgeracing.com/tires/2254515/

nsxtasy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybridmoments &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hankook Ventus Z212

you can get those in 225/45/15</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's MUCH smaller in diameter (by over 5 percent) than his stock tires. I wouldn't get street tires that much smaller (assuming you're not looking for the "low rider" look ).

Track tires, different story, I wouldn't worry as much about difference from stock; when you're ready for them, find out what competitive autocrossers with your car are using for R comp model and size.

hybridmoments

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
find out what competitive autocrossers with your car are using for R comp model and size.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
the point is you aren't going to find 'competitive people' running 2004 honda civic Lx's in STS
500lbs heavier then an 89 civic SI and only like 7 more hp.

i'm just trying to make some suggestions to help him out if he is going to run the car. doesn't really matter what he runs on his car, as long as he is out their driving and having fun. but it's always nice to inch closer and closer to the top guys in your class.

i know what it's like trying to run in STS with a very badly geared, low horsepower car.
92 civic lx 4 door. 1.5 liter. can you say Unresponsive!!!.

thats why i brought up the diameter reduction issue.
a large reduction shouldn't really effect anything on the car besides the speedometer reading.
and if he is autox'n his 2004 civic lx then he needs all the help he can get against the EF si's and 240sx's