Solo2 STS and GS... How should I stack up?
05-14-2006, 05:43 PM
#1
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,430
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Solo2 STS and GS... How should I stack up?
I know this is benchracing, but I need to know how well a mildly setup STS car should stack up against a fairly stock GS car. There are a few local GS drivers in celica's who constantly pull in very fast scratch times and always pax top 5. Should a STS car pull quicker times just because of suspension mods and less sticker tirs vs a very sticky hoosier stock GS car? At the last event the Celica was 0.750 seconds faster me on the course.. I know the driver is very good, but with equal drivers who would come up on top?
The two paxes are very similar 0.794 GS, 797 STS.
Here's the two vehicles in comparision...
GS Toyota 2003 Celica GT has 225/45/15 Hoosiers on stock wheels and only Koni Yellows, alignment (settings unknown).
STS 2001 Acura Integra has 205/50/15 Falken RT615, Koni/GC(400/500), 22mm rear swaybar, 15x7 wheels
The two paxes are very similar 0.794 GS, 797 STS.
Here's the two vehicles in comparision...
GS Toyota 2003 Celica GT has 225/45/15 Hoosiers on stock wheels and only Koni Yellows, alignment (settings unknown).
STS 2001 Acura Integra has 205/50/15 Falken RT615, Koni/GC(400/500), 22mm rear swaybar, 15x7 wheels
05-14-2006, 07:53 PM
#2
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Lancaster, PA, USA
Posts: 1,309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Solo2 STS and GS... How should I stack up? (Understeer)
On a local level, its all about who is the better driver. At a National level the best STS car should beat the best GS car.
But, based on the two vehicles you name here I give the nod to the Celica. With Hoosiers, Konis and an alignment it is much closer to the limit of its rules than the Integra is to the STS rules. The Integra is:
1) The wrong car for the class - too heavy for the HP
2) Does not have IHE which should up the HP and tq.
But the Integra should not be more than 0.5 seconds behind the Celica on a typical 40 second course. If it is then blame the driver.
regards,
alan
But, based on the two vehicles you name here I give the nod to the Celica. With Hoosiers, Konis and an alignment it is much closer to the limit of its rules than the Integra is to the STS rules. The Integra is:
1) The wrong car for the class - too heavy for the HP
2) Does not have IHE which should up the HP and tq.
But the Integra should not be more than 0.5 seconds behind the Celica on a typical 40 second course. If it is then blame the driver.
regards,
alan
05-14-2006, 09:31 PM
#3
Re: Solo2 STS and GS... How should I stack up? (00R101)
The cars are almost the same in mods minus the tires...the Celica will be faster without a doubt. I don't look at the Pax numbers, they're all screwy.
Being .750 behind the Celica is about right as far as my opinion. Could be even more.
Being .750 behind the Celica is about right as far as my opinion. Could be even more.
05-15-2006, 08:04 AM
#4
Member
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Posts: 2,400
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Solo2 STS and GS... How should I stack up? (dvp)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dvp »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The cars are almost the same in mods minus the tires...the Celica will be faster without a doubt. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Rear swaybar, wider wheels, coilovers with open spring rates, intake, header... very different than stock. A properly setup STS car should trounce any GS car.
Rear swaybar, wider wheels, coilovers with open spring rates, intake, header... very different than stock. A properly setup STS car should trounce any GS car.
05-15-2006, 08:46 AM
#5
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Indianapolis, IN, USA
Posts: 689
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Solo2 STS and GS... How should I stack up? (RineRacing)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RineRacing »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Rear swaybar, wider wheels, coilovers with open spring rates, intake, header... very different than stock. A properly setup STS car should trounce any GS car. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Trounce? I don't think so. Beat, but not trounce. The PAX and what I've seen in person would say that with both being well setup with good drivers a STS Civic will be around a half second faster than a GS MINI.
Trounce? I don't think so. Beat, but not trounce. The PAX and what I've seen in person would say that with both being well setup with good drivers a STS Civic will be around a half second faster than a GS MINI.
05-15-2006, 11:54 AM
#6
Re: Solo2 STS and GS... How should I stack up? (RineRacing)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RineRacing »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Rear swaybar, wider wheels, coilovers with open spring rates, intake, header... very different than stock. A properly setup STS car should trounce any GS car. </TD></TR></TABLE>
He's asking about two very specific cars. Not a "should the fastest STS car beat a Celica with....".
His car has few mods and street tires. The Celica chassis is much stiffer and it has race tires.
He's asking about two very specific cars. Not a "should the fastest STS car beat a Celica with....".
His car has few mods and street tires. The Celica chassis is much stiffer and it has race tires.
05-15-2006, 12:20 PM
#7
Re: Solo2 STS and GS... How should I stack up? (dvp)
I'll have to go with Alan says. Tires do make a world a difference in an autocross car.
If you can fit 225s on the Integra you might have a fighting chance, but I have yet to see a car over 2400lbs run a 225 wide street tire in STS. I know my 00 Civic Si on 205/50x15" Azenis which comes in around 2450lb in STS trim will loose to a GS trim car. And I believe the Integra is a bit heavier than my car.
If you can fit 225s on the Integra you might have a fighting chance, but I have yet to see a car over 2400lbs run a 225 wide street tire in STS. I know my 00 Civic Si on 205/50x15" Azenis which comes in around 2450lb in STS trim will loose to a GS trim car. And I believe the Integra is a bit heavier than my car.
Trending Topics
05-15-2006, 12:25 PM
#8
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,430
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Solo2 STS and GS... How should I stack up? (CivicSiRacer)
I weighed my Integra in at 2469lbs without driver.
What available options are there for 225/45/15 or 225/50/15 street tires?
What available options are there for 225/45/15 or 225/50/15 street tires?
05-15-2006, 12:53 PM
#9
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bret Norgaard has his RS Integra down in the 23xx's I believe. He recently switched from the 205/50-15's to the 215/45-16's and is much happier with the way the car works. Third place at the Atwater ProSolo, only the car's fourth or fifth event, isn't doing too poorly...
My 2650lb. STS car works just fine on 225's. Just need shorter courses to keep 'em cool...
My 2650lb. STS car works just fine on 225's. Just need shorter courses to keep 'em cool...
05-15-2006, 01:18 PM
#10
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Richmond VA
Posts: 2,159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (j-rho)
Is the DC RS substantially lighter than the DA RS?
The reason I ask is that my '95 RS was 2440, and could be low 2300s with not-much effort if not high 2200s in STS trim.
The reason I ask is that my '95 RS was 2440, and could be low 2300s with not-much effort if not high 2200s in STS trim.
05-15-2006, 01:59 PM
#11
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Austin, tx, use
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: (WRXRacer111)
ASSuming equal driver:
Add another vote for the GS Cicada or, errr Celica.
It was THE GS car prior to the Mini, and the Integra is overweight, underpowered, and not developed to the limit of the ruleset.
Otherwise its all driver.
Add another vote for the GS Cicada or, errr Celica.
It was THE GS car prior to the Mini, and the Integra is overweight, underpowered, and not developed to the limit of the ruleset.
Otherwise its all driver.
05-15-2006, 02:17 PM
#12
Re: Solo2 STS and GS... How should I stack up? (Understeer)
The only 225 wide tire out right now is the new Hankooks 225/45x15" but it just came out so no one has posted results about them.
I used 215/45x16" shaved Azenis (on the front) couple of years ago and it make a WORLD of difference compared to the 205/50x15" Azenis of the same model.
I'm supposed to get my 215/45x16" RT-615s sometime this week, mount them on wheels and then send them out to get shaved.
I used 215/45x16" shaved Azenis (on the front) couple of years ago and it make a WORLD of difference compared to the 205/50x15" Azenis of the same model.
I'm supposed to get my 215/45x16" RT-615s sometime this week, mount them on wheels and then send them out to get shaved.
05-16-2006, 04:47 AM
#14
Re: Solo2 STS and GS... How should I stack up? (schumi)
You can shave any tire. Shaving a tire takes you down to the meaty/
stickier part of the tire. Usually down to 4/32nds or 4mm of tread depth.
I shaved a set of Kumho Ecsta 712s back in 2001. Really made a huge difference compared to unshaved tires.
stickier part of the tire. Usually down to 4/32nds or 4mm of tread depth.
I shaved a set of Kumho Ecsta 712s back in 2001. Really made a huge difference compared to unshaved tires.
05-16-2006, 05:35 PM
#15
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Solo2 STS and GS... How should I stack up? (CivicSiRacer)
Just for comparison's sake my 1998 Integra RS was 2,425 when STS legal with no attempt at weight reduction at all. It doesn't have any heavy factory options like AC or ABS or sunroof. That was just after removing the spare, jack and floor mats and with a quarter tank of gas. My 12 lbs. Rotas with 205/50-15" Azenis 215s weren't the lightest combo going either. Oh, and included a Type-R wing, factory body kit and and fog lights. I think the DC Integra has a lot of potential for STS but nobody has exploited it yet.
05-17-2006, 05:19 AM
#16
Re: Solo2 STS and GS... How should I stack up? (Type_RS_59)
The only other things you could take out are:
-seats
-battery
Which would save you about 80lbs? That's still about 300lbs more than a EF Civic.
-seats
-battery
Which would save you about 80lbs? That's still about 300lbs more than a EF Civic.
05-17-2006, 06:29 AM
#17
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Richmond VA
Posts: 2,159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Solo2 STS and GS... How should I stack up? (CivicSiRacer)
My '95 Integra RS
2440lbs on the scales with no spare, no jack, nearly no gas (car ran fine on/near the reserve light for most events)
-22lb heavy wheels (swap for ~12lb wheels) save 10 lbs/corner... 2400lbs.
subtract A/C minus ~40 lbs... 2360lbs
exhaust- I think you could take 40lbs off the header+exhaust system without getting too crazy... 2320lbs
light battery... minus 15-20lbs... 2305-2300lbs
seats... minus 20lbs... 2280lbs.
2440lbs on the scales with no spare, no jack, nearly no gas (car ran fine on/near the reserve light for most events)
-22lb heavy wheels (swap for ~12lb wheels) save 10 lbs/corner... 2400lbs.
subtract A/C minus ~40 lbs... 2360lbs
exhaust- I think you could take 40lbs off the header+exhaust system without getting too crazy... 2320lbs
light battery... minus 15-20lbs... 2305-2300lbs
seats... minus 20lbs... 2280lbs.
05-17-2006, 03:48 PM
#20
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Richmond VA
Posts: 2,159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Solo2 STS and GS... How should I stack up? (j-rho)
I can believe it... the Redshift car in that test still had a bunch of heavy parts on it. There are lighter alternatives available.
I don't know that a DC Integra could keep up with the EF for a number of reasons, I still have the aforementioned DCRS but I think there are better/easier alternatives for STS cars.
I don't know that a DC Integra could keep up with the EF for a number of reasons, I still have the aforementioned DCRS but I think there are better/easier alternatives for STS cars.
05-17-2006, 04:08 PM
#21
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Solo2 STS and GS... How should I stack up? (WRXRacer111)
Not sure what years of Integra the DC covers, but Bret Norgaard and Nino Frkanec sure were doing a good job in their respective 92 RS's this year and last.
There is no shortage of STS-legal cars that can keep up with the EF. There is, however, a shortage of drivers and mechanics willing to put together an STS effort worthy of validating this theory.
There is no shortage of STS-legal cars that can keep up with the EF. There is, however, a shortage of drivers and mechanics willing to put together an STS effort worthy of validating this theory.
05-18-2006, 07:11 AM
#22
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: MA
Posts: 3,569
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Solo2 STS and GS... How should I stack up? (WRXRacer111)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WRXRacer111 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My '95 Integra RS
2440lbs on the scales with no spare, no jack, nearly no gas (car ran fine on/near the reserve light for most events)
-22lb heavy wheels (swap for ~12lb wheels) save 10 lbs/corner... 2400lbs.
subtract A/C minus ~40 lbs... 2360lbs
exhaust- I think you could take 40lbs off the header+exhaust system without getting too crazy... 2320lbs
light battery... minus 15-20lbs... 2305-2300lbs
seats... minus 20lbs... 2280lbs.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
your exhaust number is spot on, if even a little on the light side. stock rear section on an EG civic is ~30lbs, b-pipe is over 15lbs. header is an easy 30lbs. probably could save 50lbs or more on the exhaust.
battery is an easy 20lbs. EG civic seats are 38lbs each. figure ~20lbs per seat for a total of 40lbs. brings you down to 2260lbs. for a reference point, my coupe weighed 2250lbs and was nationally competitive. i had fastest right side at the peru pro and coned away fastest left against hollis. i also had fastest time on one side at the pro finale that same year against guys like hollis, ken, kevin, etc. that car could have gotten lighter, and so could the theoretical DC or DA teg. the teg brings another 15chp stock and nearly 20ctq stock to the fight. DEFINITE contender, among many others.
nate
2440lbs on the scales with no spare, no jack, nearly no gas (car ran fine on/near the reserve light for most events)
-22lb heavy wheels (swap for ~12lb wheels) save 10 lbs/corner... 2400lbs.
subtract A/C minus ~40 lbs... 2360lbs
exhaust- I think you could take 40lbs off the header+exhaust system without getting too crazy... 2320lbs
light battery... minus 15-20lbs... 2305-2300lbs
seats... minus 20lbs... 2280lbs.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
your exhaust number is spot on, if even a little on the light side. stock rear section on an EG civic is ~30lbs, b-pipe is over 15lbs. header is an easy 30lbs. probably could save 50lbs or more on the exhaust.
battery is an easy 20lbs. EG civic seats are 38lbs each. figure ~20lbs per seat for a total of 40lbs. brings you down to 2260lbs. for a reference point, my coupe weighed 2250lbs and was nationally competitive. i had fastest right side at the peru pro and coned away fastest left against hollis. i also had fastest time on one side at the pro finale that same year against guys like hollis, ken, kevin, etc. that car could have gotten lighter, and so could the theoretical DC or DA teg. the teg brings another 15chp stock and nearly 20ctq stock to the fight. DEFINITE contender, among many others.
nate
05-18-2006, 08:58 PM
#23
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Miami, Fl
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Solo2 STS and GS... How should I stack up? (solo-x)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
your exhaust number is spot on, if even a little on the light side. stock rear section on an EG civic is ~30lbs, b-pipe is over 15lbs. header is an easy 30lbs. probably could save 50lbs or more on the exhaust.
battery is an easy 20lbs. EG civic seats are 38lbs each. figure ~20lbs per seat for a total of 40lbs. brings you down to 2260lbs. for a reference point, my coupe weighed 2250lbs and was nationally competitive. i had fastest right side at the peru pro and coned away fastest left against hollis. i also had fastest time on one side at the pro finale that same year against guys like hollis, ken, kevin, etc. that car could have gotten lighter, and so could the theoretical DC or DA teg. the teg brings another 15chp stock and nearly 20ctq stock to the fight. DEFINITE contender, among many others.
nate</TD></TR></TABLE>
That really makes me optimistic of being able to make my hatchback competitive weight wise for FSP, considering it weighs 2222 lbs stock...
your exhaust number is spot on, if even a little on the light side. stock rear section on an EG civic is ~30lbs, b-pipe is over 15lbs. header is an easy 30lbs. probably could save 50lbs or more on the exhaust.
battery is an easy 20lbs. EG civic seats are 38lbs each. figure ~20lbs per seat for a total of 40lbs. brings you down to 2260lbs. for a reference point, my coupe weighed 2250lbs and was nationally competitive. i had fastest right side at the peru pro and coned away fastest left against hollis. i also had fastest time on one side at the pro finale that same year against guys like hollis, ken, kevin, etc. that car could have gotten lighter, and so could the theoretical DC or DA teg. the teg brings another 15chp stock and nearly 20ctq stock to the fight. DEFINITE contender, among many others.
nate</TD></TR></TABLE>
That really makes me optimistic of being able to make my hatchback competitive weight wise for FSP, considering it weighs 2222 lbs stock...
05-19-2006, 06:18 PM
#24
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: NJ
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Solo2 STS and GS... How should I stack up? (solo-x)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
your exhaust number is spot on, if even a little on the light side. stock rear section on an EG civic is ~30lbs, b-pipe is over 15lbs. header is an easy 30lbs. probably could save 50lbs or more on the exhaust.
nate</TD></TR></TABLE>
What are you replacing these exhaust parts with that is 66% lighter than OEM??
your exhaust number is spot on, if even a little on the light side. stock rear section on an EG civic is ~30lbs, b-pipe is over 15lbs. header is an easy 30lbs. probably could save 50lbs or more on the exhaust.
nate</TD></TR></TABLE>
What are you replacing these exhaust parts with that is 66% lighter than OEM??