TeamSlowdotOrg

Those shocks are nowhere near full extension in that picture. He still has another 3" of droop (OMG!) IIRC. Anyway, easiest way to do it is:

A) Install shocks with car on jackstands

B) Have friend (or you can put some weight on it yourself while you mess with the sleeves if you're flexible) stand on whatever's convenient in the suspension

C) Adjust coilover sleeves

No special tools necessary.

dvp

I think I see what the problem is. You have the perch way too high. As far as I remember GC says you start the perch all the way to the bottom of the threaded coilover. Or like 1/2" up from that.
The reason your UCA is touching first is the above reason. If those are the "standard" length springs GC puts on their coilovers the spring should be about an inch from touching the top perch.
So all you have to do is lower the perch down. Besides the other small mis-q's.
By lowering the perch the hat will not make the UCA touch the top of the wheel well when the weight of the car is on the spring.
The Koni's should be at the top adjustment. I believe you said it is.
Does that make sense?

You don't want to be putting a lot of preload on the shock unless you want to chance a failure.

If you're still too low then I'm stumped or you have the wrong shock.


Modified by dvp at 10:51 AM 11/8/2005

CRX Lee

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeffS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If the shock is at full extension (which he's claimed it is), and the car is still too low (which I believe he's saying it is), then the shock (A) isn't long enough. Nothing is going to fix that.</TD></TR></TABLE>
THis would only be true if the shock was at full extension when the vehicle is loaded on the springs and shocks, which it is not. Being at max extension when it is off the car has very little bearing on where it will be when it is loaded with the car other than needing to increase the preloading of the spring to get the target ride height.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sterndotstern &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">All the talk about preloading springs gets me wondering: does preloading springs have any negative effect on the shock, since (at least when the wheels are in the air) the shock is what the preload is pushing against?
I read somewhere that both topping out and bottoming out shocks is 'not good.' Can anyone elaborate?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Topping the shock when the car is at rest is not an issue, like it being the droop limiter when the car is jacked up. Topping the shock when the car is in motion won't hurt the shock but it will cause issues with grip and handling. Bottoming internally while the car is in motion is very bad as you will be smashing the bottom side of the piston assembly and adjuster rod into the compression valving and basically plan on it killing the shock. That is why the bump rubber is used so as to keep that from happening.

solo-x

is it just me or is the reading comp in this thread a little off? seems like only half of the people responding are actually grasping what the problem is.

to the OP, you can solve the problem one of two ways. first, you can use a strap wrench to crank the lower perch higher. this will preload the spring a bit and get you to your desired ride height. the alternative is to use a stiffer spring that does not require preload to get your desired ride height.

the race koni's for the EF's are the length in the picture. he has the correct part and the correct length. standing on the suspension won't work since you can't compress the delrin droop stop inside the shock. lowering or raising the lower c-clip won't help, putting in the spring isolater won't help, using a different length spring of the same rate won't help.

the little bit of preload you'll be using won't be enough to damage the damper. once you put the weight on the car that soft spring will compress about 2" or roughly 3-4" of wheel deflection. if you routinely need that much droop you have other problems. like not being on the ground.

nate

dvp

I must addmit, I missed this was going on a CRX.
My post was in regards the Integra....doh.

CRX Lee

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeffS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Measure the length of A and have Koni verify that it is correct.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I just checked the manufacturing drawings of that shock. The extended length from the bottom of the body to the top of the welded ring/landing at the base of the mounting pin is supposed to be 357mm +/- 3mm tolerance. I checked shocks in stock from the two production runs made of 8041-1166RACE and they were all to the right spec. That is basically 40mm shorter in droop than the normal street offering 8041-1166SP4 and 20mm shorter in droop than the Neuspeed 8041-1166SP3s.

Sterndotstern- Please measure your shock and let me know if you are getting a different length than the 357 and tolerance.

Vanilla Ic3

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dvp &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I must addmit, I missed this was going on a CRX.
My post was in regards the Integra....doh. </TD></TR></TABLE>

That doesn't make you any less incorrect...

Sterndotstern

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">THis would only be true if the shock was at full extension when the vehicle is loaded on the springs and shocks, which it is not. Being at max extension when it is off the car has very little bearing on where it will be when it is loaded with the car other than needing to increase the preloading of the spring to get the target ride height.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the little bit of preload you'll be using won't be enough to damage the damper.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is a relief to hear. My biggest worry was that these shocks wouldn't work with my setup. That I only have to preload the spring sufficiently to get the ground clearance I need is very good news.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeffS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Measure the length of A and have Koni verify that it is correct.</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Sterndotstern- Please measure your shock and let me know if you are getting a different length than the 357[mm] and tolerance.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Will do. I verified the part num on the invoice when I received the Koni's, but it can't hurt to verify the actual part as well. Thanks for the extra effort, Lee!

Two more questions raised by this latest good news:

1) How much is too much preload for the shock's top-stopper? Say I need 2" to get to ITA height, is that a dangerous and obscene amount of preload on 450lb/in spings?

2) I was advised to get rid of SOME of that bumpstop -- probably about half. Given that my springs are relatively soft, I expect to use some extra travel and would prefer the shock valving did the damping instead of the bump stop. However, I still have my fair share of offs, so high-impact events are not unexpected. Will I kill these shocks if I cut the bumpstop? Is there a "minimum safe length" of stop?


Thanks again for all the expertise,
Jon

tom91ita

CRX Lee Rocks!!

slammed_93_hatch

with only running 450 springs up front, you might come close to runing out of travel. Im not sure though, some one might chime in who could tell you exactlly how much travel you will need.

cspcrx

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">with only running 450 springs up front, you might come close to runing out of travel. Im not sure though, some one might chime in who could tell you exactlly how much travel you will need.</TD></TR></TABLE>

With the ride height that high (if he indeed needs to preload about 2in) I don't think he will run out of shock travel. Also, the upper wishbone ball joint will hit the frame before the shock fully compresses. I actually tested it That is assuming the upper shock mount is "standard" and the lower fork is indeed mounted on it's slot.

Ian

solo-x

2" of preload on a 450lb spring would equal 900lbs of force. you will never need that much preload unless you are doing a zero droop setup. on a 2100lb crx with 62% of the weight on the front axle i calculate roughly 3mm of deflection static at the wheel. ie, only 3mm of droop. ie, tire won't follow bumps in the road. ie, SLOW! not to mention you wouldnt' be able to get the car low enough in that situation. and yes, if you do that, you will beat the delrin droop limiter to death.

the fsae guys that actually worry about droop travel on their cars are running roughly 15mm droop front, 25mm droop rear. that's on a rwd, mid-engine formula type car. 3mm of droop on the front of a fwd tin top would be Wile E. Coyote stupid.

nate

CRX Lee

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sterndotstern &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1) How much is too much preload for the shock's top-stopper? Say I need 2" to get to ITA height, is that a dangerous and obscene amount of preload on 450lb/in springs?</TD></TR></TABLE>
As Nate said, I don't think there will be any way that you will need anything like 2 inches of preload to get your ride height. If you were going to greatly preload the spring which I think would give you too much ride height, I would think that you might have a coil-bind issue with the spring when the car is in use before you ran into a problem of damaging an internal rebound stop. I have seen inside literally many hundreds of shocks over the last many years and have never seen a damaged internal rebound stop since Koni changed to the Delrin-like material in the mid-1980s.

I was contacted by someone today regarding this thread and he said he had 450lb/7 inch springs on these shocks and needs little to no preload to acheive his target ride height. Once we confirm that the max length of the shock is alright (which I greatly expect it to be) then go ahead and preload it once you have the right circlip retaining system on and the stock shaped chrome perch off.

One of the PITAs of a sleeve system when preloading is that sometimes the sleeve will want to spin on the shock instead of staying in place. Although I have not done it myself, I have heard several people say you could use a little bit of hardening Permatex on the inner bore of the sleeve and essentially glue the sleeve on. I have not done this myself but would consider it if it was a problem. If so, I might strart a bit conservative on the volume of silicone to keep it from being permanently glued on.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sterndotstern &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">2) I was advised to get rid of SOME of that bumpstop -- probably about half. Given that my springs are relatively soft, I expect to use some extra travel and would prefer the shock valving did the damping instead of the bump stop. However, I still have my fair share of offs, so high-impact events are not unexpected. Will I kill these shocks if I cut the bumpstop? Is there a "minimum safe length" of stop? </TD></TR></TABLE>
It would not surprise me at all if you needed to trim the bump stop a bit to get your target ride height. Normally it is better for us to supply a bit much and let the racer trim as needed to his dimensions. I can't tell you what the minimum safe length is becasue there are too many variables like your height, your tracks, your proclivity for off course excursions and the terrain therein but a good rule of thumb would be to try not to trim away more than half of it. When we designed these last Fall, we did make them less of an "interference" internals than a normal street shock. To date, I have never heard on a RACE shock being internally damaged from bottoming. Always trim off the blunt end and leave the conical, progressive end as it will be easier on the car and grip when it does make contact. Remember that with the motion ratio of these cars, 1/2 inch at the shock or bump rubber is about 3/4 inch at the wheel so no need to cut way too much off.

Sterndotstern

Nate, don't get me wrong, I don't *want* to preload the spring to 900 lbs. I'd rather have no preload. However, it seems that to get my ride height to acceptable levels, I'll need to be running a significant amount of preload.

I like a suspension that does its job, i.e. following bumps. I don't like getting DQ'd because I'm too low for the class, or bashing my upper ball joint into the frame.

I called GC to get the "baby sleeves" and discovered that this is apparently not a GC piece, or if it is it's so old they no longer support it (this car has been raced for a decade plus ). So I ordered poppin' fresh new spring perches and sleeves from Ground Control, with "everything but the spring." I'm hoping that this makes all the difference in terms of adjustability, but somehow I'm skeptical.

I'm going to try to implement some of the many good suggestions on Thursday, since I doubt the new coil-overs will arrive before then. I have the day off to prep and pack for the long drive from Tucson to Buttonwillow on Friday.

My teammate, Scott (FlyZlow), is swapping an engine in, but, if things don't go well, we might not make it out to Cali this weekend. Between a horked suspension on one car and a horked engine on another, we've had a great past couple weeks.

Thanks for continued interest and advice,
Jon

Mohudsolo

Not to ask a stupid question, but does the CRX use the brake hose bracket that slips onto the lower end of the shock like the later Integras? I initally installed mine without the bracket and the shock went way into the lower fork. When I realised they were supposed to be there, I took them off my original stock shocks and then the Koni's fit into the fork with the factory notch lining up with the pinch bolt. If you don't have that, the shock will sit about 1" lower in the fork.

dvp

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mohudsolo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not to ask a stupid question, but does the CRX use the brake hose bracket that slips onto the lower end of the shock like the later Integras? I initally installed mine without the bracket and the shock went way into the lower fork. When I realised they were supposed to be there, I took them off my original stock shocks and then the Koni's fit into the fork with the factory notch lining up with the pinch bolt. If you don't have that, the shock will sit about 1" lower in the fork.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That can't be because there is a big indent for where the bolt in the fork goes threw the bottom of the shock. It does however line it up perfectly with the brake bracket on there..

solo-x

have you put the full weight of the car on the suspension yet? i remember the first time i installed gc's on my car that i figured there was no way in hell i'd get the ride height high enough with the spring rattling around like that. i raised the circlips, spun the adjuster to the top, dropped it down off the jacks, and had a rally car.

nate

Sterndotstern

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mohudsolo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not to ask a stupid question, but does the CRX use the brake hose bracket that slips onto the lower end of the shock like the later Integras? I initally installed mine without the bracket and the shock went way into the lower fork. When I realised they were supposed to be there, I took them off my original stock shocks and then the Koni's fit into the fork with the factory notch lining up with the pinch bolt. If you don't have that, the shock will sit about 1" lower in the fork.</TD></TR></TABLE>

A very good question. Neither the old shocks that came off the car nor the new shocks have that brake hose bracket. On the old shocks, the braided brake line bad a bracket that was ziptied to the shock body, a setup I never had any trouble with. I was planning on duplicating that setup when I get these bad boys put back together.

However, is it possible the problem is that the fork is sitting too high? Is the fork supposed to rest against the slightly flared part of the shock, or is it supposed to sit lower, so the shock notch lines up with the shock pinch bolt?

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sterndotstern &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the shock notch lines up with the shock pinch bolt?</TD></TR></TABLE>

That is the way it should be. Without the brake line bracket you can get another 1/2" or so.

577HondaPrelude

FWIW most CRX road race guys I know are running around 550 to 600lbs/ich front springs. A higher spring rate would not hurt your problem.

Another Drew

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sterndotstern &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Is the fork supposed to rest against the slightly flared part of the shock, or is it supposed to sit lower, so the shock notch lines up with the shock pinch bolt?</TD></TR></TABLE>

.RJ is correct. If you have your fork at the flare, your fork is way too high.

Sterndotstern

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That is the way it should be. Without the brake line bracket you can get another 1/2" or so.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Cool. Thanks!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 577HondaPrelude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">FWIW most CRX road race guys I know are running around 550 to 600lbs/ich front springs. A higher spring rate would not hurt your problem.</TD></TR></TABLE>

There are many ways to skin a cat, and I'm happy with the balance of my car as it is. I run 450F 850R and have a pleasantly neutral car that doesn't dog-leg. I'd like to keep it that way.

Thanks to all the good posters, without whom I'd be frustrated and ignorant.

Special thanks to CRX Lee, for his comprehensive answers to my questions above, and for the tip about gluing the sleeve to the shock. I confirmed the length of the shock is 358mm, so it looks like we're dealing w/ the right part. I should be able to bolt this thing up tomorrow!

- Jon