strsi

I was just at willow springs running hpde, but i had to cut the day short because i ran into a problem. I've checked some things already, but i cant figure out what it is. I will be taking it to the mechanic on Tues to have him look at it, unless someone might know what my problem is.

The car is a '94 civic dx hatch. Totally stock other then omni power coilovers & an intake. Sits on konig heliums with 195/50 R15 falken ziex 512 tires. I've never had a single problem with the car on the street or in my 2 previous track events (1 at the streets of willow & 1 at the main track of willow springs).

Here is what the track looks like...


Temp was over 100 degrees.


Anyways, session 1 the car ran fine. About 2 hours later I go out for session 2. No problems during the warmup lap.

Lap 2- i take turns 3 & 4 in 2nd gear. Shift to 3rd between turns 4 & 5. As i turn in for turn 5 all of a sudden it sounds like i'm dragging soda cans or something. I let of the gas, sound goes away so i get going again. NO problems again till turn 9. I run turn 8 in 4th full throttle (normal for me). Tap the brakes before turn 9 & then run it almost full throttle. Just before apex of turn 9 it all of a sudden feels like my car is trying to tow something very heavy. Thats the best way i can describe it. I was running smooth & out of nowhere my car suddenly slows down enough to where my head snaps foward. I staid on the gas for a few seconds & the Engine was trying to run hard but it just felt like the car was be pulled back or something. I let off the gas quite a bit but it still feels like i'm being held back. It doesn't feel normal again until a slow down a bunch as i pull into the hot pits.

So i pull in to the hot pits. Tech look under the car, i'm not dragging anything, no fluids leaking, coolant temp is fine...

I wait a few min & go back out. The lap was fine until turn 9 when i have the exact same problem again. So i pull of the track. I look under the hood, under car, check fluids; it all looks fine. Engine sounds fine & revs smoothly.

Fearing i destroy something if i go back out, i just decide to try to limp it home. However, on the drive home the car feels great. No problems at all. Engine is responsive & feels like it has the normal amount of power it always has. I figure it must be the transmission or clutch. So on the way home i try some hard accelerations from a stop & hard shifts, it all feels fine. No problems all the way home even though i kept trying to be hard on it to feel the same problem again & give me a better idea of what it is.

So basically it only seems to have a problem when i hit a high speed sweeping turn. Which i cant really duplicate on the street to test it. Not the i'm pulling tons of g's with my crappy all season tires, but it seems i must be related to the force put on it as i go through a turn like that. Axles or something maybe?

If anyone has experienced this or has an idea i'd appreciate it. Maybe i can solve the problem before i have to pay a mechanic for the labor.

Thanks

kb58

Sounds like you're sucking air due to fuel slosh mid-turn. How full was your tank, and which side of the car is the pick-up on?

strsi

The tank was about 3/4 full. Not sure what side the pick up is on (its a stock civic, maybe someone else knows?

Last time i ran at this track i did not ever experience this problem. That time the tank was probably a little bit more full to start, but not much. Although by the time i had my final session then it was probably less then 3/4 of a tank.

kb58

I still think that it's a low tank. The only other way your car could start slowing down on its own would be things like:

1. Oil starvation and the engine's starting to seize. Doubtful, since you said nothing about oil pressure, and if it had started to seize, the coolent temp would go through the roof.

2. A mechanical problem with your throttle cable. If the engine's physically leaning to one side due to a defective mount, perhaps it's reducing how much throttle you can give it. This seems unlikely due to how the cables work, though.

3. The fuel gage is defective and the tank's lower than indicated.

4. There's some crap floating round in your tank that's plugging up the fuel inlet.

You realize if I figure this out, you're going to have to buy my book. Imagine what your drivetrain would do in something that weighs half as much




Modified by kb58 at 5:14 PM 7/7/2007

sidtc

Don't really know, but coincidentally a caller to the show "Car Talk" this morning described a similar problem.
After ruling out low octane fuel as the culprit, they settled on the crank angle sensor as the culprit. Did your
check engine light come on?

If the problem was fuel starvation, you would more likely feel that in turn 2.


Modified by sidtc at 6:30 PM 7/7/2007

strsi

sounds good
I doubt its oil starvation cuz the engine seems to run great on the way home & the coolant temp never went above the middle mark (on the track or the way home).
All motor mounts seemed fine, but ill take a closer look.
Definatly pleanty of fuel, i filled it up on the way there. Only about 40 miles on the tank when i reached the track.
Crap in the tank could be a possiblity i suppose, dont know where it could have come from though.
One thing i did notice, that i forgot was that there was a little bit of coolant spray near the bottom of my engine (around the lower radiator hose) & on the bottom splash shield. & now that the car is totally cool the coolant level is just slightly lower then it normally is. I did not drip any coolant on the ground when i parked nor did i notice any coolant trail following me to my pit. It was a pretty minimal amount of coolant, but it never done that before.
I wiped it up before i left the track & there was no more coolant spray around the engine from my drive home though.

The tank was filled with 91oct chevron fuel.
No check engine light at all (on the track or the way home).

Thanks for the help guys

Boilermaker1

How low do you have the car? Is it possible you're catching a tire on the fender or something? That makes noise... and would drag on the car... and going fast, the suspension is going to squat pretty hard.
Look at the tires and see if you're rubbing. Its not likely with 195's, but its worth a look, thats an easy fix.

kb58

Good call on the knock sensor. I have a supercharged car, and if I get on it hard in hot weather, the knock sensor can dial out a LOT of power. It feels a lot like what you describe, all the power goes away. You may have a similar situation due to the hot weather.

thawley

Sounds like you're gone already. But there are plenty of HC racers out there today who would able to help you. If you're still there, look for any of the following for help:
- Jeremy Croiset (red CRX H4)
- Tom Paule (silver CRX H4)
- Sam Rothchild (red/black CRX H4 w/ busted windshield)
- Andrie Hartanto (white/blue 99 Civic H1)

All of them are there today and any of them can help you or help you find someone to help.

strsi

i wish i would have done that, but i dont know any of them personally so i didn't want to go up & bother them with my problems while they were trying race.

As far as i know, the d15b7 doesn't have a knock sensor.

I've got the car lowered w/ about a 1-2 finger gap between the tire & fender. Its never rubbed before on that turn, but I will definatly take a closer look tomorrow. "edit"- i took a close look & there was definatly no rubbing.

One thing that seems to stand out as a common thought is fuel starvation. Which brings to mind that the fuel filter is about the only common maintainence thing i have yet to change since owning the car (little over a year). I have no idea when it was changed before that. Could it be possible that the fuel filter is badly clogged & thats whats causing the problem? I'd think if that were the case I'd feel it in the straights too, but i dont at all, it accelerates fine in straights... Is it possible the combo of a possible old fuel filter & the force from the high speed corner is causing fuel starvation?
Either way i suppose i'll get a new fuel filter tomorrow, it cant hurt.

Problem is i cant seem to replicate the problem on the street, so i guess the only way to see if its fixed is to get back out on the track. It would just kind of suck if the problem showed up again after paying $150 again for the next event.


Modified by strsi at 11:34 PM 7/7/2007


Modified by strsi at 11:37 PM 7/7/2007


Modified by strsi at 12:11 AM 7/8/2007

thawley

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by strsi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i wish i would have done that, but i dont know any of them personally so i didn't want to go up & bother them with my problems while they were trying race.</TD></TR></TABLE>
There's normally enough down time between sessions (and certainly after the race) that someone would have been willing. I would have been. We're generally pretty willing to help HPDE folks when there's time. It's the first step to getting you out there and joining us in the race group!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by strsi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Could it be possible that the fuel filter is badly clogged & thats whats causing the problem? I'd think if that were the case I'd feel it in the straights too, but i dont at all, it accelerates fine in straights... Is it possible the combo of a possible old fuel filter & the force from the high speed corner is causing fuel starvation?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Doesn't sound like it. A fuel flow restriction would give you trouble anytime you reached high RPM, not just in high load turns...

Fuel starvation or intermittent fuel pump failure are more likely. How many miles does the pump have on it? Still, the thing that I'd want to experience first hand is the noise. Dragging soda cans? Really? That's a very mechanical sound; not exactly what you'd expect to hear from fuel starvation. Is the car still making power when the sound occurs? Or does it completely lose power as if you were turning the ignition off in mid-turn?

Pulling at straws, here: Does the noise sound as if it could be coming from the exhaust system? Is your catalytic converter in good shape? Has it hit anything? Is it stock? What about the intake? Do you have any weird-o intake devices that could be mechanically choking the engine under hard cornering and making that sound?

The puzzling thing to me is this is happening in turn 5 AND 9, left and right handers, respectively. That and the noise lead me away from the fuel pick-up theory as it would tend to happen on one side or the other, but not both. Also the noise... I've never experienced any noise of that sort when I've had mid-corner fuel starvation issues. (And I've had my share.) The soda-can description brings to mind thin metal things. Exhaust. Intake. Fenders. Brake baking plates. Parts of the car rubbing or hitting the ground. Those sounds are not uncommon in lowered cars with rubbing issues. And they DO tend to occur in high-load turns like 5 & 9. But they don't generally slow the car. Is there any chance that the sound occurs all the time and the only time you can hear it is when the engine loses power and goes quiet?

strsi

Thanks i'll keep that in mind if i ever need help again.

The fuel pump is the same old stock one as far as i know. I don't know if a previous owner ever replaced it, but i doubt it. The car has 165,000 miles on it, so the fuel pump is probably the same. I'd imagine if i take it to a mechanic they would have a way to test the fuel pump?

The first time on turn 5 was the only time i ever heard the "dragging soda cans sound". I think it felt like it lost power there too, but i was so startled by the sound that i imeadiatly let off the gas. So i cant say for sure. But the sound went away after a few seconds & then i slowly got back on the gas & it was fine, until turn 9.

Both times in turn 9 i did not hear that noise. Everything seemed fine until all of a sudden it just felt like i imeadiatly lost a lot of speed & the engine was struggling to pull something heavy.

I've checked for rubbing issues in the fenders & under the car & i dont see anything noticeable.

The intake is just a regular aem short ram intake. The exhaust & cat are totally stock. Someone else had mentioned the possibility of the cat breaking apart inside & maybe moving around inside when i take the turn & blocking the exhaust flow?

The engine doesn't actually lose power & go quiet when this happens. i wish i would have noticed the tach to see what the revs looked like when it happened. But the very sudden loss of speed made the rear end start to wiggle out so i was more focused on keeping the car on the track. THe best way i can explain the feeling is that it felt like all of a sudden a large trailer was hooked up to the back of my car. The engine sounded like it was trying hard but that it was just to heavy of a load for it.

I'm gonna go take it for a short drive & see if i can make this happen again. Then i'll take a look at the cat & other things under the car.

strsi

I just took a good look under the car & there is definatly no rub anywhere under the car or fenders. There are no fluids leaking & everything appears to be normal.

i kicked the exhaust system & cat around & there was no rattling sound inside.

i will definatly replace the fuel filter just in case cuz its cheap & easy enough to do, although i dont think its whats causing the problem.

I just took the car for about a 40 min drive through a local mountain road. It has a lot of sweeping turns & of course for my own saftey & others i did not take them at anywhere near the speed that i was taking turn 9 at willow, but the car felt great. I didn't have a single problem at all.

So i'm totally stumped. I'm gonna have my mechanic look at it on tues, but i dont know if there's much he can do if i cant even get the car to replicate the problem it was having on the track.

Is it at all possible that maybe just the heat of the day got to it. Maybe a sensor or something shorted out? It was over 100 degrees & i had it parked in direct sunlight in the pits w/ the windows rolled up

Jaker

Check the bottom edge of your front mud flaps. That could have been your soda can sound. Maybe you've never taken the corner as hard as you did that one time.

Lord knows I used to drag the front mud flaps at autocross on my 86 Civic with 20x8x13 Goodyear slicks.

turboteener

Many problems can show up on the track but you can't see them on the street. Last track event I did I had to run my car almost full to keep from fuel starving in the turns. I could see the fuel gauge going below half tank after a high G turn.

ruthless013

before i even read your first post, i had a feeling i knew what problem you were having.

when i took my 96 civic coupe with b16a2 motor swap to the streets, i had a problem similar to what you describe at the apex of turn 6 as i crested the hill. it was as if the car shut down temporarily - not stalled, just went seriously down on power for a moment. it got to the point where i would fill up at the gas station right before an event, the top it off during lunch. that was the only solution.

no silly street driving could ever reproduce the conditions. if i recall, the top of the hill is a 2-3 upshift, (it's been a few years) so between the speed, the g's, and the fact that you practically go airborne, i chalked it up to temporary fuel starve.

there are some serious g's to be had at turn 5 (for those not familiar, it's a sharp downhill left hander that abruptly goes uphill into 6 where the hill crests) so i'm not surprised to hear it happen there either.

hope that helps. at least you're not alone

strsi

thanks. yea that sounds pretty much like the problem i was having.

I ran an instructional course at the streets a while back. I never had any problems there, but then again it was my first time on a course so i'm sure i wasn't going all that fast.

My first nasa event was at the main course of willow springs a few months back. That time i had filled my tank up on my way to the track. So i showed up at the track w/ a tank that had only about 20-30 miles on it.

This last event (when i had the problem) at willow, i filled up the day before. I believe the tank had about 50-70 miles on it when i showed up.

So it was definatly lower when i arrived. However i only ran 1.5 sessions this time. Last time i ran all 4 sessions. So by the last session then i was probably just as low as i was by my 2nd session this time. And i never had a problem last time.

I suppose maybe i was a little quicker this time since i'm more familiar w/ the track. I guess that could have been the difference

Maybe i'll skip the mechanic for now (unless the problem shows up while driving) and see what happens next time out. I'll definatly make sure to fill up right before i get there & bring a gas can with me to add some between sessions.

Could i have caused any damage from the fuel starvation?

Thanks

thawley

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by strsi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Could i have caused any damage from the fuel starvation?</TD></TR></TABLE>
No.

Not unless the sudden power loss causes you to spin and hit something...

LoooseGSR

I drove my friend's CX b16 swapped hatch at PIR a while back and had the same problem, they gave me a hard time because it had never done it to him, and after i drove it, it happened and they thought it was a bearing about to go. Turns out the carousel at PIR in Phoenix, on RA1's, can carry some pretty high g's, and it turns out it was just fuel starvation. Not sure how they kept it from happening though.

Justin

thawley

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LoooseGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not sure how they kept it from happening though.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Obviously he was not driving hard enough...

strsi

sounds like a fairly common problem then with hondas?

LoooseGSR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Obviously he was not driving hard enough... </TD></TR></TABLE>

so i take it that means I was?

thawley

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by strsi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">sounds like a fairly common problem then with hondas?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah. Some are worse than others. Running an ITR fuel pump seem to take care of it.

Crazydave

I would defineltly check under your car for something that might be dragging.

Where was the sound coming from?

I know that somethines the fender lip rubber thingys come off and make a shitload of noise.

They won't slow you much, they it does sound like soda-cans.

There is also A LOT of plastic under the wheel wells too... Maybe one of those came off.

Get your cars on jack stands and take a look.

As far as your car slowing down, did you throw any codes?
Have you checked your timing, oil level, water level?

Also if you have a compression gauge check your compression.

I had a similar situation at willow... it wasn't pulling for ****.
Timing was ok, oil pressure & temps ok, water temo ok, everthing was fine. Car seemed peppy enough,turns out my head gasket was going. My compression was 190, 120, 100, 190 (guess where the leak was).

strsi

I checked under the car very well & i cant find anything that could have been dragging. I'm beginning to think that sound was unrelated to my problems in turn 9. I suppose its possible i ran over some debris or something that i didn't see & dragged it for a little bit. There was a car off in the dirt in that section with problems that required he be towed back. Maybe he lost something & i ran it over?

Oil level was fine, coolant was fine other then a little bit of spray near the lower radiator hose (just a few drops & after the car cooled down the coolant level in the resivor was very slightly lower then normal), timing is good.
So i'm hoping it was just the fuel.