GSpeedR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MechE00 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
One of the things I've noticed recently...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Trust me, I'm all for hurting people's feelings and making others feel bad, but if you truly don't understand a language very well, then 2 pages of sarcastic discussion about the American school system isn't going to help you. I'm not trying to send out the Friendship Police to make everyone nice...cuz that's just boring. It basically comes down to the fact that people who can't write well annoy the **** out of me, but not as much as people who point out their mistakes. Of course, if I wasn't me, and I was reading posts by GSpeedR, I'd want to kick that kid's ***.

Anyway, I get off-topic in every thread I'm in.

Johnny Mac

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GSpeedR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Trust me, I'm all for hurting people's feelings and making others feel bad, but if you truly don't understand a language very well, then 2 pages of sarcastic discussion about the American school system isn't going to help you. I'm not trying to send out the Friendship Police to make everyone nice...cuz that's just boring. It basically comes down to the fact that people who can't write well annoy the **** out of me, but not as much as people who point out their mistakes. Of course, if I wasn't me, and I was reading posts by GSpeedR, I'd want to kick that kid's ***.

Anyway, I get off-topic in every thread I'm in. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Perhaps it was me who began this, though unintentional, faux pau pointing out the mistake by this thread's originator. Now, I know my limitations - which are finite like any person's - but since the original post didn't make sense as written (it was subsequently edited by it's author) I felt a need to inquire further as to what his statement meant. So hopefully your targeted annoyance isn't direct at me.

And I take no credit for those who chose to participate in the diatribe on the American school system. However, I agree completely with what they all had to say. Perhaps everyone is annoyed that few people are able or willing to educate themselves these days since it is more popular for school age kids (and many adults) to be bad asses. I'd rather be a geek than an illerate adult who has to fight for a job at Wendy's.

MechE00

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">To quote my mother when I was growing up "Behind the preposition AT!"</TD></TR></TABLE>
while we're talking about prepositions..
http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/churchill.html
but you've probably seen that one before..
(does that count as on topic?)

gpteitz

I don't worry so much about kids not knowing where Tennessee is; I worry that they don't know how to think critically. It blows my mind that people simply take as fact and truth just about anything presented to them (e.g., marketing, media, politicians, etc.). Our schools are, generally speaking, churning out legions of sheep who unquestioningly believe whatever they're told without considering the source, the motivation behind the source, opposing arguments and their proponents' motivation, etc.

Johnny Mac

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gpteitz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't worry so much about kids not knowing where Tennessee is; I worry that they don't know how to think critically. It blows my mind that people simply take as fact and truth just about anything presented to them (e.g., marketing, media, politicians, etc.). Our schools are, generally speaking, churning out legions of sheep who unquestioningly believe whatever they're told without considering the source, the motivation behind the source, opposing arguments and their proponents' motivation, etc.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

It seems that here in California the teachers are more interested in slamming Arnie in TV commercials. Of course, the teachers have complained for years that they feel more like babysitters than teachers. In addition, it's pretty common to hear stories about fourth graders assaulting or trying to poison or threatening to kill teachers. What ever happened to Leave it to Beaver?

GSpeedR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Perhaps it was me who began this, though unintentional, faux pau pointing out the mistake by this thread's originator. Now, I know my limitations - which are finite like any person's - but since the original post didn't make sense as written (it was subsequently edited by it's author) I felt a need to inquire further as to what his statement meant. So hopefully your targeted annoyance isn't direct at me.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Nope, not annoyed at anyone here. My post was made up of several general statements that only loosely correlated to any of the many topics going on right now. It's an unproductive day at work and my brain is running at about 32-33% of normal.

94accordsedan

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GSpeedR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Nope, not annoyed at anyone here. My post was made up of several general statements that only loosely correlated to any of the many topics going on right now. It's an unproductive day at work and my brain is running at about 32-33% of normal. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Dude where can I get one of those funky brain capability functions level meters.

apexinghonda

I am an old fart relative to most folks on here and most of my "edumacation" was private schools. French in the first grade. Latin, Algebra etc. in the eigth with required reading of certain novels with book reports in the summer. Learned phonetics very early on. First we had to learn the basics, reading, to spell, to diagram sentences, to conjugate verbs, do math with a pencil and paper. When you get that part down then you can go to the more creative and critical thinking. I am amazed at the lack of younger people's spelling and writing skills. If you can not do that you come across as ignorant. Ignorance does not get one a job except on the *** end of the garbage truck. Many people have forgotten the joy of reading and their imaginations now are the next game on PS2 or Xbox instead of images in their mind. It is a sad commentary on our society IMO.

Barry H.

Barry H.

Johnny Mac

No, instead get a 200 hz sampling rate brain function DAQ system. Or on the other hand, maybe only a 10 hz system is necessary and just think of all the money you'll save on CF cards.

94accordsedan

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by apexinghonda &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am an old fart relative to most folks on here and most of my "edumacation" was private schools. French in the first grade. Latin, Algebra etc. in the eigth with required reading of certain novels with book reports in the summer. Learned phonetics very early on. First we had to learn the basics, reading, to spell, to diagram sentences, to conjugate verbs, do math with a pencil and paper. When you get that part down then you can go to the more creative and critical thinking. I am amazed at the lack of younger people's spelling and writing skills. If you can not do that you come across as ignorant. Ignorance does not get one a job except on the *** end of the garbage truck. Many people have forgotten the joy of reading and their imaginations now are the next game on PS2 or Xbox instead of images in their mind. It is a sad commentary on our society IMO.

Barry H.

Barry H. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Well put Mister H...

Its sad when your peers "buy" books to fill their shelves and never read them. I have never owned a gaming console of any form, and I become the butt of jokes because I don't own an XBox or the latest game. Sure gaming increases hand/eye coordination, but reading does far more for your brain.

fsp31

http://www.despair.com/potential.html

Johnny Mac

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fsp31 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> http://www.despair.com/potential.html </TD></TR></TABLE>

That's a pretty depressing website with all those demotivation mugs, books, and even mouse pads.

Circuit Star-29

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

What the hell has happened to our school systems?

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Our current President and his "No Child Left Behind ACT."

"Bush!!! ."

Johnny Mac

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by C-speed Ricer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Our current President and his "No Child Left Behind ACT."

"Bush!!! ."</TD></TR></TABLE>

You can't blame Bush for this problem. Start by blaming the ignorant and unprepared parents for this problem. If kids went to school with an appetite for learning in first place, then the school systems would have a much easier time teaching them. As it is, kids don't want to be told what to do and the school systems can't punish them for fear of being sued for child cruelty and all of that bullshit. This problem started way before Bush got into the presidency, but it appears you just wanted to state your political feelings regardless.

nonsense

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

You can't blame Bush for this problem. Start by blaming the ignorant and unprepared parents for this problem. If kids went to school with an appetite for learning in first place, then the school systems would have a much easier time teaching them. As it is, kids don't want to be told what to do and the school systems can't punish them for fear of being sued for child cruelty and all of that bullshit. This problem started way before Bush got into the presidency, but it appears you just wanted to state your political feelings regardless.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think Bush is an idiot too, but I agree that this issue began way before his dad was in office. Hell when I was in the 5th grade (a looong loooong time ago ) I figured out something about school. If I don't do anything, I'll still get by just as if I did do something. Of course this led to getting poor grades through high school and eventually not going to college. Is it because I was stupid? I tend to not think so. I think it was because school was boring to me, and nobody really cared if I didn't do well. My 4th grade teacher cared. I was on the honor roll that year. 5th grade teacher didn't give a rats *** if I didn't work and so on and so on.

In high school I was tested and put into a program with other kids like me. Basically we were kids who did almost no homework, didn't pay much attention, yet still scored high on tests. Homework to me was useless, I didn't learn that way. This was the only program at my HS that delt with computers. In these classes I learned by doing, and I learned a lot. In my other classes (i.e. math) I learned how to pass w/o doing much and w/o showing up much. I now know that I was cheating myself, but it was so damn easy.

My point? Schools need to come up with lesson plans that work. They didn't work when I was a kid, and the stupid test prep crap that they do now doesn't work. Sure you can take a test like nobodies business, but WTF will that get you in the real world. I think a lot of teachers are just going through the paces. Higher pay for teachers will attract the best, and will allow the crap teachers to be fired. If we should sink 1/2 of the money spent killing Iraqis on schools we'd be in better shape for the future.

Vanilla Ic3

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nonsense &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

If I didn't do anything, I'd still get by just as if I did do something. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, I've dealt with schools like that.

MechE00

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My point? Schools need to come up with lesson plans that work. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Being a teacher is very, very hard work-- at least from what I saw from watching my mother do it. It stereotypically pays quite poorly, and there is often very low prestige for the profession.

Being a good teacher is even harder. Teachers get kids coming through whose parents are nigh abominable in their attitudes towards their kids. If you try to do anything to help the kid, you'll usually **** off those parents. If you continue to try anyway, the parents start saying things like 'you are trying to interfere with our family'.

So, the reward and feedback system in schools in general pretty strongly rewards mediocre teaching, just as it reinforces mediocre student behavior.

Even in the case of programs that let 'high performing' students have separate classes, you get people complaining. Good teachers tend to be attracted to the 'high performing' classes, just like good students are. As a result, parents of lower performing students complain that the good teachers are being drained away, doing a disservice to the students that 'need the good teachers the most'.

I don't have a panacea plan, really. In the absence of such a plan, I think the Christian axiom of "God helps those who help themselves" is a workable plan: reward the students who are performing better with the better teachers. Let the parents be the force behind driving their childrens' desire to learn and to get into the better classes.

Of course, that may lead to greater class/educational divide, so put scholarships out there targetted to children of parents with poor educational backgrounds... let kids use that for extra private tutoring to get into the better classes.

I'm glossing over a million issues with my glib plan, but...

edit: word choice

94accordsedan

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nonsense &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...snip... </TD></TR></TABLE>

You bring up a very good point. It shows how education from country to country, even state to state can differ. In the 14 years I spent in K-12 our teachers cared, when I dropped out in 11th grade my teacher first called me up and then came to our house to find out why I had dropped out. When I started doing horribly in 9th grade my teacher ensured both my parents knew and took measures to stop it from happening. Most of my friends here tell me their schooling was different, teachers didn't care and would let you pass regardless.

Personally I believe if we put a bigger onus on education we'd end up with better results. As silly as this sounds, make education cool. You know talk about the kid that got straight As or a 1600 in their SAT and mention it on the news.

Catch 22

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Start by blaming the ignorant and unprepared parents for this problem. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Hold on there sparky.
I agree to an extent, but its hard to know what your kids aren't learning, especially if their report cards have "A" all over them.
Mostly we discover these things by accident, like when we go on a trip and hear "Where's Tennessee?" from the back seat. I suppose we could quiz the kids on basic stuff on a weekly basis, but c'mon, thats supposed to be happening at school.

The kids in this house get grounded for anything less than a B, so we rarely see anything under a B.
So they are putting forth the efforts to get good grades, the problem is that I fear school has been dumbed down so much that our kids As today might have been Cs 25 years ago. I dunno, and its very frustrating. How do you tell a kid with straight As that they need to work harder???
And ours go to the best school in the area. Its why we live where we do (we simply can't do private school).

&lt;sigh&gt;

94accordsedan

Its a tricky situation, if you grill your kids they may hate you because they think you are wanting more than an A.

Hracer

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">its hard to know what your kids aren't learning, especially if their report cards have "A" all over them.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I also think this is a large contributor. It's just too easy to make good grades in middle and high school in NA. I went to middle school in Toronto and it was very disappointing for my parents (for me as well once I realized it later) to see that the amount of geography and history taught was almost non existent compared to what they received in Romania. Same thing was for math, in 7th grade I was still able to use my Romanian math text that is used for grades 2 to 4 over there. The difference is alarming. High school was more of the same - much too easy. I finished highschool with something like a 3.9 gpa and I don't remember once opening a book outside of class time. Homeworks were usualy short enough that they could be completed in a few minutes in class if you rushed and tests were easy. And this was at a very good (and very well funded) highschool in Atlanta. The problem with this is that it leaves students with false impressions of what hard work really means and once they go to a good university this completely takes them by surprise. Literally, I noticed that in highschool all I had to do was to show up to class and pay attention to half of it and I'd be just fine. Depending on how little time you spent doing school work in highschool to get those As, it can literally be a 100x increase in the amount of time per week you'll have to spend working/studying to just get by (not talking As) in something like an engineering degree in a good university. Bottom line, having done middle school in Canada and highschool both there and in Atlanta, it's definitely much too easy to get As - not that I would have wanted it made more difficult while I was in school!

SJR

yeah, straight As in HS in france? you would have qualified as genius material. 50% was passing, and 60% was decent. To get anything over 80% on a regular basis would have required MANY hours of daily homework.
For example, for you engineers, by the time I graduated HS, I knew calculus (1,2,3) differential equation, college level physics, chemistry, anatomy and biology. I could also read english (with a disctionary 'cause my vocabulary was lacking) understood some spanish, could do structured programming (in Fortran, but hey, 'them were the 80s) and I knew more history and geography (world, not just france) than about 90% of HS grads in the states. And I was a fairly average student - what can I say, I was (am) lazy...

I SAY EH

Interesting thread. My $0.02:

School has not been dumbed down. I don't believe ANYONE when they say stuff like "If you got straight As 25 years ago you were a genius blah blah blah blah." This is just very simply NOT THE CASE. I agree that there are far more high school graduates now than 25 years ago. I'll also agree there are far more college graduates. And a BA has become some sort of 'bare minimum' for many jobs, when clearly it makes little or no difference.
However, kids today are under far more pressure to perform (grounded for less than a 'B') than ever before. As such, they focus on grades (the same way schools focus on those stupid standardized tests) and do what is required to get the grade. Not only that, the breadth of subjects taught in schools is greater than it ever has been. Computers, for example, are now an integral part of school programs. So is technology. Teachers in many parts of the country are required to introduce simple physics into classes as early as 3rd grade. All of which I think is great. These are REAL skills that are difficult to look up. Knowing where Tennessee is (or even how to spell it) can be easily looked up.

This is where I have a MAJOR gripe with much of the education system (elementary, high school and even college and university level): nobody seems to be able to come up with a system to teach people how to think, reason, and use "common sense." When my daughter (6 months old now) is 12, if she can't tell me where some place is, I won't get all upset. If she doesn't know HOW to look up where it is, then I'll get a little ticked.

My wife (who is very intelligent, holds 2 bachelor degrees, speaks many languages, the whole nine yards) is a perfect example of this. She can memorize almost anything (like where Tennessee is) but can't DEDUCE anything to save her life. When we started dating I taught her to drive a manual transmission car. I figured if I explained how the clutch operates (at a conceptual level) she could DEDUCE how to operate the car. NOPE. What did she do? Memorize the combination of pedal inputs required to accomplish various functions with the car. The whole experience was answering questions like "Can I press the gas and the clutch at the same time?" Well, you can, but the car won't go anywhere. OK, now that's memorized, let's go to the next combination. See what I mean?

Wow, this is long. Anyway, the short version: I don't care if schools don't spend time making students memorize stuff. What I do care about is that schools can't seem to figure out how to teach students to be resourceful, deductive, and logical thinkers. I guess memorization is how a lot of kids get the grades that meet (or beat) the expectation of their parents, rather than actually trying to learn something and risk failing......

-Matt

EDIT - Fat fingers.

Johnny Mac

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Hold on there sparky.
I agree to an extent, but its hard to know what your kids aren't learning, especially if their report cards have "A" all over them.
Mostly we discover these things by accident, like when we go on a trip and hear "Where's Tennessee?" from the back seat. I suppose we could quiz the kids on basic stuff on a weekly basis, but c'mon, thats supposed to be happening at school.

The kids in this house get grounded for anything less than a B, so we rarely see anything under a B.
So they are putting forth the efforts to get good grades, the problem is that I fear school has been dumbed down so much that our kids As today might have been Cs 25 years ago. I dunno, and its very frustrating. How do you tell a kid with straight As that they need to work harder???
And ours go to the best school in the area. Its why we live where we do (we simply can't do private school).

&lt;sigh&gt;</TD></TR></TABLE>

Scott,

The comment was directed at "what happened to the school system" and was not meant as a general attack on parents. I'm sure your kids aren't causing the problems, but you can bet there are students in your kid's class(es) that are troublemakers. These troublemakers are a minority in the usual class but their attitudes towards education affect the entire class. Add up each class with this situation and you've got a school in trouble. So it only takes a few bad students with parents who couldn't care less about what Johnny did in school to ruin it for the rest. Sparky has spoken.

Circuit Star-29

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


You can't blame Bush for this problem. Start by blaming the ignorant and unprepared parents for this problem. If kids went to school with an appetite for learning in first place, then the school systems would have a much easier time teaching them. As it is, kids don't want to be told what to do and the school systems can't punish them for fear of being sued for child cruelty and all of that bullshit. This problem started way before Bush got into the presidency, but it appears you just wanted to state your political feelings regardless.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Please clarify your statement about parents ignorance a little better. Very true but I'd like to know your perspective, exactly.

Its the bad kids who need the most attention. Usually, their home lives are horrible; mom always at work, drugs, poverty or all of the above. Reward the good students who excel and focus efforts on the kids who REALLY need it.


My reasons for my statement are:

#1: Funding. Bush's 488 Billion dollar defense budget three years ago cut into our Federal school funding. Especially in lower income communities that used to rely on federal grants but now must look to local grants and funding, being that its a lower income zone funding is already limited.

Bush's ACT is trying to privatize school funding. Standardize testing and grading more so then it already is, which leaves SOO many students that have "different" learning styles then some 4.0 students behind (yeah, no child left behind, huh?.) Put it like this: not every car acts the exact same way on a track. So, one driver can't transition from car to car and put down the exact same lap times. It takes time to understand the car and its characteristics. Same is said for children. You can't teach one child, who has a visual learning style, how to perform arithmetic by telling him; you have to show him. By limiting the avenues that teachers may take limits the amount of students he/she can teach with any success because no two students have the exact same learning style.

Bush wants standardized tests and grading (main point of NCLB Act) so that students may learn faster and make teachers jobs easier while easing the load on a given budget. The old, white-haired, billionaires forgot to think about the children when decided this was Americas savior for the school system, sitting around their marble 14k gold trimmed table.

I believe increasing the difficulty for testing is needed but I believe that finding several ways to provide the education necessary to pass those tests cannot be in a "standard" form. There is SOOO much I could touch on but its late and I hope I've gotten what Im trying to say across well enough to be understood.