mattbatson

I would think they wouldn't allow passengers except for instructors?

I agree that there should be a requirement that if you have lots of engine mods or want to run 12 inch wide racing slicks, that you must have a cage and other safety equipment.
Otherwise, you must be oem and on 200 treadwear or higher tires if you want to run your street car.

Of course, these track days are a business for a lot of people, so turning away participants might be difficult....

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

Ideally this would be a great idea but like you said its a business, and there are too many fly by night track days out there now and sooo many shops putting on track days to get their name out there, and whats worse is the format they use for judging a drivers experience level is extremely flawed.
There has to be a presidence some where, and maybe this tragedy will be the cornerstone of something positive.

Xian

Ahhhh... optimism. As they say, "good luck with that."

The precedent is there for the current safety equipment and passenger policies that we've all seen (and continue to see)... "everyone else is doing it." Any company that increases their requirements without all the competition doing the same, will lose entries and operating income. Without someone (Feds?) forcing a specific set of safety rules down everyone's throats, this isn't likely to change any time soon (and the prospect of having a Governmental agency set safety policy for privately held events on private land is far and away more frightening to me than the current safety levels).

As it relates to this crash... yeah, it's another preventable fatality. The reports of a 4 point harness (if true) are contrary to the organizers policy of stock or 5/6 point belts only. This could have been overlooked by tech, added into the car after tech, or an error by the coroner... dunno. I've never been to Chuckwalla but there should absolutely be impact absorbent barriers around worker buckets/walls... probably some opportunity here for the track to do a better job on their design and depth of crash mitigation. The car in question... could it have had more voluntary safety equipment? Hindsight being what it is, sure. Otherwise, what are we looking at? A relatively low power car with bolt-ons, right? It certainly didn't look/seem like much more than what I track on a regular basis with the stock 3 point belts and airbags. Then again, I don't drive it at what I consider "high risk" venues and tend to leave some "whoops" room on the table when I am on track.

As for the families/driver, terrible thing to go through and I wish them all the best as they work through the recovery and healing process.

Driven

Why?

How will this prevent accidents? I've seen crashes happen at 20mph. A rollover could happen at 40mph. Power output of a vehicle shouldn't equate to the safety requirements. In my experience, I've seen far more incidents involving Miatas than Corvettes.

Don't use this unfortunate accident to impose restrictions on everyone else, when those restrictions likely wouldn't have prevented the girl's death.


Look at the video I posted. You'll see worker stations located throughout with black bits surrounding them. Those black bits are tires.

Just seems like a freak accident.

mattbatson

I know that PDX's with the SCCA do not allow passengers.
Which seems like a good idea...considering this thread.
to say that this restriction wouldn't have saved this girls life is...well, idiotic

Crashing a car into a concrete barrier at 20mph is quite a bit different from crashing into one at 100mph.

Speed kills my friend

Xian

Just to make sure I've got this right... the video you posted is running the opposite direction they were running when the crash occurred, right?

I see the worker stand and the tires around it. What I can't tell is whether that's "just" a double stack of tires around it. Also what sort of speeds are folks running through there? Looks pretty fast to potentially slam into a couple of tires and expect it to work out ok... especially if the natural topography "falls away" and means that the car won't scrub speed before contacting the bucket.

Forgive the lack of familiarity with the track... I'm an East Coast guy and know our tracks but not the stuff out west.

lwnslw

driven, I'm sorry but why????, because having a passanger in a car carries a lot of responsability, why???, because there is a family without a daughter right now, why??. Wow, I do instruct as well as race in a well known area and class, and I'm talking out of experience.
The problem here is there is so many "experts", Let me tell you something, going fast does not automatically makes you an expert.
A monkey can go fast, knowing how to drive fast is completely different.
You don't see sierra sierra or rado or the green machine going around in tank tops and flip flops, you want to impress me with your video, show maturity and responsability , let me see that your life is more important than half a second.
People's priority is to bolt on a turbo or cams instead of a roll cage.
When I see those threads about my first track day , what do I do? , everybody chimes in and all the "experts" give a wide range of opinions , but have I ever seen anybody suggesting to check the seat belts and seat condition. I don't think so.
This sport is a fun one, but also one that carries a lot of responsability and a lot of danger. The aproach to it has to be mature. At the end of the day my goal is to drive my car into the hauler and see my kids at home.
why you ask why?, this is not a stroll in the park with your girlfriend. If you want a date, take her to the movies or the queen Mary.
There is way too many variables in the equation that can go wrong. You are not crashing at 20 mph or 40 mph. That would be on a really lucky day.
We are not trying to impose restrictions, I'm calling for them to be implemented.
People in tank tops and flip flops have absolutely no business in a race track.
Or would you go in a football field , or hokey ring to play in tank top and flip flops?

JW racing

Good points Marcel.

I think passengers should not be allowed unless its an approved instructor. I also think that all hosts should copy the better organizations and utilize a log book for students to get signed off each track day, because this will allow the proper instructors/leaders to keep a tab on the experience of those drivers that may try to enter a more advanced group than they should be in, instead of allowing this "self classing" to happen. They also should have trauma teams on site, where many orgs have just an ambulance and transportation. This is important because it cuts down in the time from accident to treatment. A few hours from accident to real help is not acceptable in my book and one of the reasons I dont participate in events at Chuckwalla much. Nothing is remotely close except some cactus and a few rundown trailer parks.

If the OEM seat and airbags are not present, then the ones using seats should have approved FIA racing seats should have a head and neck restraint with the proper 5/6pt harness and roll bar to attach the harness to. As well as a fire suppression system. All of this should be properly mounted and inspected as well. Inspection and enforcement does lay with the host. If kids are seeing nobody checks for safety or skill level for the group they signed up for and they are held accountable on their own, things will be overlooked. The tech sheets say, long sleeves and long pants yet like marcel says tshirts and shorts come out. That shows me that these rules are not being enforced properly. I myself am guilty once or twice for going out in a Tshirt but always have my Hans on and fire system armed. It is easy for any of us to become complacent, so if a particular host is lacking here and there, then lets make it a priority to police ourselves. We all care about each other at the track and know how friendly the scene is, lets remind each other once in a while to put that suit on or get that inspection done by a certified shop or tech.

Robin6

Ace!

Driven

A 20mph head-on crash with improper safety equipment can be just as dangerous.

Correct.

That I can't speak to.

Really depends, but... I'm sure if the driver was carrying good speed, coming out of the uphill right-left, then dropped a tire and spun it across the track... he'd probably see some pretty high speeds.

Driven

Let me clarify my "why".
Do you think an instructor in that car would have prevented a death? Do you think an instructor in the car would have changed the outcome whatsoever? Perhaps... but that's hypothetical and we're still left with a family in mourning. So, ignoring hypotheticals...

You're making a leap of faith to what constitutes an "instructor". How many instructors have gone thru a legit training course. I'm not talking about a track day where you ride with another instructor who tells you what you should communicate over the course of a hot lapping session. And just because you have a W2W race license doesn't mean you know how to drive, or better yet, know how to properly communicate to a student. I'm talking a classroom based training course, followed up with practicals. Something like what PCA does to certify their instructors. Probably very few of the "instructors" that are out and about these days have had legit training

But moving passed qualifications, my issue is, even instructors do stupid things. The key thing that should be conveyed if there's more than one person in the car:
Don't drive more than 7/10ths.

I'm not sure how this relates to "instructor only" ride alongs...


I think restricting ride alongs to just instructors would be a bad thing for this sport. I gave a ton of ride alongs to people before I became an instructor. I also rode with a lot of people when neither one of us were instructors. The communication was always "drive 7/10ths" and we both had a good time.

I see a lot of knee-jerk reaction from people over this tragedy.
"EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE SAFETY EQUIPMENT!"
"INSTRUCTOR ONLY RIDES!"
"BAN CARS!"

Reminds me of the whole gun-debate. There are certainly great ideas (More safety checks or reinstate tech at track days, both brilliant ideas), but there's also a lot of fear-mongering.

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

Great write up Justin...
My experiences with these self classed track days has sworn me off them for good.
Too many fast cars, inexperienced drivers being allowed to run like Marcel said "minimal safety equipment, and achieving lap times that rival door to door racers"
This is a recipe for a tragedy like we saw here.
Being mature and responsible for yourself, and passengers is paramount to avoiding more tragedies like this one.
I say from now on when we see a build thread or a track day vid from someone who is either new or carrying passengers we should all point out and emphasize more safety.
Equipment,training and instruction is key.
Fully brief your passengers that things can go wrong, and the reality is there that you can get hurt or worse.
If it does one thing for a newbie it will plant the seed... the rest is up to them.

JW racing

Paul is johnny appleseed, plants a seed everywhere he goes

At magic mountain short people cant ride certain coasters because they can not be properly secured. Same should go for the track. Not properly secured, no entry.

Just like school one needs to pass a class and have credits logged on paper to proceed to the next level, same should go for the track. Not in 12th grade according to your log book, sorry no entry for joo.

As with any tragedy or failure, lets not point fingers.. lets instead point the direction that things should go. With that direction we can set examples for others to follow. We just need a pied piper.

lwnslw

Driven, I am not interested in getting involved in a pissing match with anybody, that is the main reason why I don't even post in this place any more, and for that matter 95% of the real racers that used to post here are gone for the same reason.
There is always some smart expert that has done a few track days and think they can write a book about everything.
I don't know why you have to argue every point that we are making and I don't know what you gain with that.
I have said my peace and I'm out. I just hope that I don't read about somebody else when it could have been prevented.

iwannarace

Cheers!

Driven

So... why did you bother trying to start one?

Fully agree with this. One thing I have done ever since I gave my very first ride was tell the passenger basically this:
- If we go off, stay in the car. Do not get out... UNLESS we are on fire.
- I will be driving 7/10ths.
- If you start to feel sick or want to go in, give me a "thumbs down" and I will pit immediately, shouting may not work
- Keep your arms/hands inside the car. Cross your arms and hold the shoulder harness tightening strap or sit on your hands. Grab the interior handle if need be.
- We are doing something very dangerous... we could get seriously injured. Don't go if you aren't ready to possibly die.

I've done this because the first ride I got, this was basically conveyed to me. It's also what I tell my students (minus the hand placement, obviously)... and I hope those students pass it on to whoever them ride with or give rides to.


Agreed.

But, as what I've been trying to get at is, what should be changed, if anything?
Where do you draw the line?

or why not options...something akin to:
You, must pick one:
a. run full fire suit minimum 2 layer and balaclava + SFI shoes + SFI socks + SA helm
b. run long sleeved shirt and pants + SA helm

Car, must pick one option, fulfilling it in it's entirety:
a. run all OEM safety equipment
b. run rollbar + Option A
c. run 5pt-6pt Harness + fixed back seat with proper harness slots + HRS + Option B
d. full cage + window net + fire suppressant + option C

Granted, this is a very very rough draft, but the idea is there. Don't let people mix Option A with Option C for the car safety, etc, etc.

1998GsRIntegra

I can see where this thread is going so I'm just going to start by saying I'm no expert and I don't claim to be one.

What was the actual cause of death? Unless I missed something, it hasn't been mentioned anywhere and I didn't see anything specific in the coroners report regarding it. I'm looking for something like Basilar Skull Fracture, Head Trauma, Internal Bleeding, ect. Just trying to get an idea of the contributing factors other than the obvious going from a high speed to a sudden stop. If we know the extent of the injuries, that could go a long way to understanding what component(s) of the vehicle safety system were being used improperly or were just not being used at all.

Secondly, does anyone have exact details on the safety devices in place in the car at the time of the accident? Fixed back seats?, oem seats?, airbags?, what harness setup(as in how the harness was attached)?, what harness(was it ASM technology?), roll bar?, roll cage?, ect.

I don't mean to sound or come off as weird. People don't frequently die at track events and when they do I generally like to find out exactly why because most of the time it paints a clear picture of what not to do. From what I've found in years past, it's generally head related trauma that could have been prevented with a HNRS.

In my opinion, doing track days or performance driving events is kind of like owning a motorcycle. My view is that if you can't afford the $3000 or so worth of proper motorcycle safety gear, then you have no business owning a motorcycle. If you can afford a harness and fixed back seat, then you can afford a HNRS system. This doesn't apply if you have every piece of stock safety equipment in place. That is a very effective system when all pieces are enabled and used properly.

Xian

I'll disagree... H&N devices are great at preventing Basilar Skull Fractures and general soft tissue damage but I wouldn't go so far as to say that most deaths could have been prevented by a H&N device. If you said a H&N device and *all supporting hardware* to include a cage, FIA winged seats, 5/6 point harness, then yes. Otherwise, show me the data.

Nobody with the details on what happened has stepped up here to share them. The only thing I've seen thus far is the police report commentary about a 4 point harness. Sounds like the rest of the safety gear was stock or close to it.

<--- has owned/raced with a H&N waaaaaay longer than they've been required by the rules but also realizes they're not a saftey silver bullet.

1998GsRIntegra

I apologize that I didn't make that clear distinction in my post, but it is what I meant. I should have added that it is typically head related trauma because the car was using a combination of race and street safety systems. Such as a 4 point harness and a fixed back seat, but no HNRS. I said it in a round about way at the end, but it wasn't directly after my comment about an HNRS potentially preventing some of the deaths we see at track days so it's my own fault for being unclear.

To clarify what I was trying to say. Most deaths happen because the car is outfitted with a combination of street and race safety devices. Typically a harness and fixed back seat, but no roll bar and no HNRS. Usually the cause of death is head trauma(from the head hitting the steering wheel or dash) or a BSF because the harness held the body but not the head.

Xian

Gotcha... stats are remarkably hard to come by but I think that's a relatively fair, high level assessment. If every DE car was outfitted like a Race Car, there would be fewer deaths due to injuries at the track. I'd also guess that the injury/death rate in these more comprehensively prepped cars would be higher overall due to injuries sustained on the street (head meet cage, smoosh). In short, what makes a track car safe is often apples: oranges with what makes a street car safe. So where do you draw the line for these double use cars?

What appears (to me) to be the highest cause of deaths at the track (including club racing) is driver health related issues. Most typically heart attack and diabetes related from what I've seen/heard. Maybe organizers should refuse entry to folks with a BMI over a specific threshold? Or require on-site blood sugar level testing before each group goes on track? :snicker:

The tough thing anytime something ugly happens at the track is that folks want to identify the root cause and then make rules/requirements to keep it "from ever happening again". That's pretty well impossible as long as retards keep tracking street cars (myself included). There will *always* be half-measures taken with regard to safety. There will *always* be lower hanging fruit with regard to driver skill/fitness/health/track design. And typically, when someone is seriously injured or killed, it's not one breakdown in the chain that causes the incident... it's multiple items. In this most recent crash we're talking about potentially:

#1- 4 point "illegal to the rules" harness
#2- Possible sub-optimal energy absorbent barriers at the track
#3- Possible poorly located worker bucket
#4- possibly un-buckled helmet
#5- possibly disconnected/disabled airbags
#6- unknown driver skill/experience

You change one or even a couple of the above contributing factors and there probably wouldn't have been an injury/death.

To your point, knowing how many of the "possible" items above truly occurred will help to understand why there was a death vs. an injury or just some bent metal or *maybe* just a spun car... but I don't think that full "race" level safety gear is the way to fix things for DE's. Imagine the potential liability an organizer faces if he "requires" an entrant to make unsafe alteration to a street car and then is subsequently injured on the street (thinking about a cage in particular)... DE's are designed for street cars and, until that changes, I see the level of required safety gear being pretty well at a standstill.

Sidebar: I used to rock climb/vertical cave a lot growing up and saw the same thing there. Deaths weren't usually due to one mistake that could easily be prevented; it was usually a cascade effect of several marginal decisions.

1998GsRIntegra

I couldn't agree more. At least two people come to my mind that I remember passing away at the track due to a health related problem, both were not even on the racetrack. Since you're an east coast guy like myself, I'm sure you've heard of and probably remember Chris Fox.

My thing is that cars should really not be dual duty and setup in a half street safety devices and half race safety devices manner. I'm of the opinion that track days are a gateway for people to get into racing by driving their street cars at speed to see if they like the sport with out making a big investment in it. By street car, I mean something will all the stock oem safety features in place. After you want to go beyond driving your street car with stock safety devices, you should be building a purpose built track car with at minimum a roll bar, fixed back seat, 5 point or better harness, HNRS, and if your so inclined a fire suit isn't a real bad idea either. I can say it until I'm blue in the face, but it won't change anything. These half race car half street car vehicles being used at track days are what gets people seriously injured or killed. Not in all cases, but some.

I'm also not of the opinion that more restrictions and rules will solve the problem. The only thing that would solve the problem would be more thorough tech inspections on cars before they would be allowed to enter events. That will never happen though because the people that run these events would lose money from a lower participation rate that would come from more stringent tech inspections. As I said I don't think we need more rules, I think we need more thorough tech inspections. If the rules currently in place were actually followed we probably wouldn't be having this conversation and a family wouldn't have lost their 21 year old daughter due to basically carelessness.

Xian

Honestly, it doesn't ring a bell but a quick search shows that it happened during my hiatus from car stuff (triplets in 09). Health stuff is definitely the biggest factor, IMO, and a wildcard. There was a death recently at Roebling the day before I was there... guy had some sort of diabetic reaction and went straight off in T1 (in a race car with full gear). It happens and there's not a ton that can be done about it besides turning away entrants "just in case" they could have a problem.

Personally, I see your point but there are tons of folks who look at DE's as being the end goal and not just a step toward the goal of racing. I use DE's to stay sharp behind the wheel between races and because I enjoy instructing. But I'm also careful about where I drive/instruct in a street car.

I agree lack of a cohesive safety setup hurts folks but I don't know that it's as big of a deal as you make it out to be. Some stuff (4 point harnesses) just really don't belong on track, IMO. Other things like a fixed back seat and 5 point harness are a little more gray. Are you better off with the driver restraint but no rollover protection? What about the extra restraint without a H&N? Dunno. To me that's definitely gray and something that, if I were running a DE program, would be hesitant to require more or less than the competition as that could be additional liability exposure.

Tech inspections will help with obvious infractions (4 point harness) but won't mitigate things like red-mist, driving beyond one's abilities, mechanical failures, track design/layout problems, etc. Assuming the car in question *did* have an (illegal) 4 point harness, I can easily see a scenario where it would go through tech. "You can't use that 4 point harness" "OK, we'll use the stock 3 point belt instead"...

Robin6

ALL Very good points and information flowing here...sad as this news is, good things are surfacing with this thread.

coolhandluke

iTrader: (2)

Agreed. Excellent discussion going. I don't have to contribute but I am enjoying reading and chewing on the information.

Xian

Jesus Christ... don't tell me this place has gotten bad enough that I'm the voice of reason!