psegs80

I've always run more negative camber in the front vs the rear of my 2000 Honda Coupe, what would happen if I switche that arround???

Cheers

mrlegoman

Most FWD guys want the rear end to rotate on them. So they run very little rear camber and big rear sway bars.
Running more rear camber will reduce rotation and, most likely, increase understeer.
Also, running less front camber will, most likely, cause the car to push more through the turns too.
Others with more racing knowledge can probably explain that better then me.

A lot also depends on your suspension setup.

NTCustoms

lol you hit it on the spot basically.

nscirocco

if you have rear grip .. why throw it away!? add more roll stiffness back there to get your balance .. stiffer springs, sway bar, add spacers in rear to increase the track, more camber .. also stiffer rear springs will put more heat into the tires and you'll have even more grip .. do what you gotta do to get the rear to stick and once your fronts have less work to do you'll have your balance.

mrlegoman

^ I've never seen a fast FWD car driver that actually wants equal front and rear wheel grip.

NTCustoms

agreed. many follow the "loose is fast" mindset

slammed_93_hatch

this is a bit confusing..

in general terms

stiffer springs = less traction (I know this isn't 100% correct but i am being overly simplistic)

stiffer sway bar= less traction

hotter tire temps/higher PSI= less traction


All of this is assuming that you are at a "good/ideal/comfortable" spot in the setup.

But really for any one issue there are 3 or 4 different things that "could" be done to correct it.


So what you are suggesting, with the exception of adding track width to the rear, causes a loss of traction.

CivicSiRacer

Me neither. I had about -2.8 front and -1.8 rear on my 91 Civic Si and it was a hoot to drive.

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

This is what i was always told and it seems to work for me!

JBrettHowell

FWIW, while the described actions and reactions are generally true, don't be afraid to experiment with your setup and your car. What may be a generally accepted verity could prove untrue in your particular situation due to the immense number of variables.

Case in point, earlier this year I was working with someone on a setup and we found the car rotated less and with more predictability when we reduced the rear negative camber - especially in transitions (this was on a Miata, so throw in half a dozen other differences from your situation, but conventional wisdom said to keep the back end from coming around one should increase rear negative camber). Likewise we found that increasing rebound in the rear shocks caused the car to push more. O.o

When it comes to setup, experiment with some radical changes and keep notes.

gotocrx

If you haven't read it already: https://honda-tech.com/forums/road-racing-autocross-time-attack-19/rr98itr-responds-wais-original-critique-no-insults-step-right-up-231870/

jimmy, he is probably saying something confusing because he is just parroting something someone told him once that made their car better. The rest of us read it and go, "wait that makes MY car WORSE...".

It is important to not only understand what will change your balance but HOW it does so.

Taking the tire temp thing, for example. You being a honda challenge racer, where cars are pretty heavy, have probably never had a problem getting your tires up to temp. But on some cars, that is a real problem. Running a stiffer spring is a legitimate way to get more tire temp, as is lower pressures. Either action might help a car that is having grip problems due to running outside the heat range of the tire. Of course, you will only know this is your problem if you first a)know heat range of the tire, and b)are measuring your tire temps.

Just simply applying the antidote without knowing the disease is setup suicide, but that doesn't stop people from doing it, or recommending others do it via a forum.

nscirocco, I kinda agree with the philosophy you are presenting, not to do extreme things to the rear because the car isn't turning, but be realistic. These are FWD cars! What you posted kinda focuses too much on the rear. Any philosophy that focuses on one end more the the other, imo, has little hope of ever being "balanced".

court76wi

Suspension setup can negate camber settings as far as handling. I run -2 degrees rear on my CRX with lower tire pressure and it still rotates more than I'd like it too.

I look at camber as evening out tire wear and increasing cornering traction. I don't play with camber or tire pressure much when handling is concerned. I do what's best for the tires in terms of wear and traction, and make other suspension adjustments for oversteer/understeer.

If you're adjusting camber/tire pressure to influence oversteer/understeer, you're not utilizing the full traction potential of the tire. You'll be faster learning to drive how the car is setup rather than jacking around with those two settings. If your car understeers, then dive into the corners faster and forget about rotation. If it oversteers (FWD car), then do all your braking in a strait line, or a touch in the corner to rotate the back end, and accelerate all the way through the corner.

mrlegoman

^ great point court76wi!
I think maybe on some level this might have been what nscirocco was indicating.
Set camber to maximize tire efficiency (even temps range all across), then play around with sway bar, spring rates and damping setting to increase/decrease oversteer. Am I on the right track here?

essex

Having a lot of rear grip when you don't have the perfect line because someone is beside you comes in handy.

court76wi

It sure does. That "loose is fast" mindset can go kiss my butt. It might work well when you're the only one out on the track, but once you add another car you better be ready for anything.

I'm not saying that a car that oversteers or rotates is bad, because it's a good trait to have, but make sure you have a safety factor. Find the "balance" as other people said. Especially when someone doesn't sponsor and pay for your mistakes. If you have unlimited funds, then make your car as jumpy as hell, but just make sure you don't **** off the other driver(s) who's car(s) you also totaled in the process...

I'm wondering. Back to camber and tire pressure stuff.

MSchu

You do in japan...

mrlegoman

But they also run 265 front tire widths and 205 rear. And 20K+ spring rates. I see lots of things in Japan that makes my head hurt.....

essex

I spy nscirocco in the rear view !

http://www.vimeo.com/4924953


It sure looks like a parking lot well maybe not the one you could have a perfect line through lol.

RpWolfSH

I like what you said. You need to utilize all of your tires potential. What I would do is after a run, check your tires temperature near inner and outer shoulder and the middle. If they are about the same then you are using the entire tire(for that perticular run and setup), if not make camber or other adjustments accordingly.

Note: Professionally, camber settings should different on each track because of the many variables.

gotocrx

Not exactly. A road race car with any amount of static negative camber usually ends up with a hotter inside and middle when it achieves it's optimum setting. The reason is two-fold:

1)cars spend more time rolling down straights than in corners, so contact patch is to the inside, and
2)the outside of a tire is the part that spends the least amount of time in contact with the road. If you have static camber enough to have an even contact patch on the laden wheel, then the unladen wheel turns with extreme negative camber, not even using it's outside.

in short, the middle an inside are the parts of the tire that always are in contact with the road and therefore always creating heat.

If you are pulling off tire temps that are even, there is a 90% chance you would benefit from more negative camber.

court76wi

I'm sorry, I'm still a cheapskate. I just mark the outside of my tires with a repair crayon and make sure I'm not rolling over the tire.

If I am rolling, pressure up. If I'm not close to the edge, pressure down. Not the most scientific, but I have even wear on my tires. I guessed at camber, about -2.3 to -2.5 front (natural lowering effect) and -2 rear (adjustable uppers). And I still have lower rear pressure, 34 psi front & 29 psi rear - adding rear camber dropped that from 32 psi. Car rotates no problem. But that gets into all the other suspension stuff.

For some reason though, it amazes people that I don't have my rear tires pumped up to 40 psi.

TunerN00b

For auto-x use, I've found rear pressures of 42 psi and 28 psi to both produce more rotation than the 35(ish) psi that is the min needed to not roll over onto the sidewall with my suspension and tires.

They feel different in how they do so, but both low and high pressures reduce traction, allowing oversteer if done in the rear.

Of course, running sub-optimal tire pressures to correct handling is just a band aid fix.

RpWolfSH

As soon as I logged off I said "static camber...doh!" This also depends on the type of racing that you are doing and your setup. Thanks for the correction.

nscirocco

simplistically .. in the rear yes, but you're changing your roll stiffness distribution at the same time, making the rear do more of the work and unburdening the fronts.. your overall grip goes up!

if you just remove rear camber you get no benefits in the front.. sure it feels good .. but your overall grip is down

if you can get the same balance (i never said equal .. whatever you like it at) at 1.4gs or 1.2gs .. what would you choose?

if you have your rears upto the same kinda temps your fronts are at then bravo.. otherwise more temp will help
i aim for the same hot pressures all around

your overall traction will go up


i know it's hard to compare on different tracks and whatnot, but what kind of lat Gs do you honda challenge guys get on r888?

rkcarguy

Theres an optimal "peak" where everything has a sweet spot IMO. If you are rolling your tires over a sway bar will help you gain traction, if you have -3* camber already and add a swaybar, you will probably lose traction unless you are running a very soft sidewall tire or low pressures. It's all about keeping the tire flat to ground in all conditions.
I played with camber settings and pressures on my EX coupe over the weekend at an auto-x event. My setup was what I had kicking around, tein basics, EK9 rear bar, stock front bar, ingalls camber kit front, washers in the rear. I had excellent forward bite and braking, low speed handling was decent but understeered a bit. Transitioning throttle at higher speeds the *** wanted to come around(unpredictable).

Day 2... I replaced the ingalls camber blocks with the stock parts and took one washer off the rear end. The additional camber cost me some braking and forward bite, but the gains thru the slolem and stability gained in the rear took ~1-1/2 seconds off my time. I also believe that the rear end rotated more in the tight low speed turns from the additional camber, but it was slight and could have benefited more from removing the washers all together.