bb6h22a

Not many of you know me, nor do I really post all that often, but I've come for some advice. I've been hitting the go fast crack pipe pretty hard lately, and in the midst of clearing the smoke I tallied up my expenses; and it occured to me that I've spent a lot of money on my car, but am not sure weather or not continuing is prudent (fiscally)-- as I'm not sure I can progress without modifying the car (read: $$$) AND further developing my skill (read: more seat time ($$$), more schools ($$$), etc.) So, I've been looking to karting as an alternative --not in lieu of my car, but as a mainstay my car would supplement--, and would like to know, as I'm an utter neophyte, weather or not this really is the case. I'd like to work my way up, but would like to start with something fairly quick and fun; so, my questions are: 1 . How much does it cost to track a kart, say, 12 + times/year; 2 . relative to cars, what's the cost of consumables? 3 . what are the different classes of karts (i.e.; engine sizes, types, speeds, etc.); and 4. is there an association(s) that overlooks/organizes karting competition, and open track days, like there are for cars?? I appreciate your input, esspecially those with 1st hand experience. Regards.

Driven

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bb6h22a &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so, my questions are:</TD></TR></TABLE>
Good luck, most of this forum have no idea what a shifter kart is...I've had some experience and, like you, have been thinking the same thing. Let me see if I can answer some of your questions (prices are rough estimates):

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> 1 . How much does it cost to track a kart, say, 12 + times/year;</TD></TR></TABLE>
Here in Vegas, we have a kart track that on every Friday, you pay $15 for roughly 4 hours of track time. You can go out whenever you want and stay out as long as you want.

Race events are a bit more, perhaps $50-$70?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">2 . relative to cars, what's the cost of consumables?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Tyres - $200
Top-end kit - $100
Brake pads - $50?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> 3 . what are the different classes of karts (i.e.; engine sizes, types, speeds, etc.);</TD></TR></TABLE>
http://www.skusaonline.com will help you out better.

But, for you coming from cars, you'd want to stick to either:
1. rotax (125cc non-shifter)
2. 125cc shifter
3. 250cc shifter

They go up in the price. Rotax brand new with engine can go for about $4000. 125cc shifter is closer to $5000-$6000. Used, I've seen them as cheap as $1500.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">4. is there an association(s) that overlooks/organizes karting competition, and open track days, like there are for cars?? </TD></TR></TABLE>

http://www.skusaonline.com is the big one.

You can find more info at http://www.f125.com


Karts are FAR cheap to run than cars, in every aspect. They just have a steep initial purpose. If you go used, for close to $2500, you could have a 125cc shifter kart ready to race. You would just need additional safety equipment, like rib protector (so you don't crack your ribs), elbow pad (so your elbow doesn't hit the engine), and a neck brace.


It's surprising more of this forum DOESN'T race/drive shifter karts... 90% of professional road racers from NASCAR to CART started in karts.

Good luck... it's A LOT of fun!

Mike_C

Karts are definately a great way to go. Cheap, fast, and easy to get to and from the track.

Our club is currently raising funds to buy one. On a limited budget and without a tow vehicle it's a no-brainer to go with a kart.

celica73

http://www.skusaonline.com might be the better link to try.

Scott

fireant

Funny, I've been thinking the same thing. Someday, if I want to move beyond auto-x into something else, I've decided to go into karting instead of club-racing for the financial benefits.

My dream is to purpose build a small auto-x car but its just too overwhelming compared to building a kart... do people build thier own karts from scratch to compete? I would like to design it a little bit more like a SAE formula car that like a super-tiny kart.

GSRMatt

To get a decent used 125 shifter with a reasonable spares package you probably need to spend around $3500. However, that may not be the best place to start. There are slower, less expensive options that may offer better competition. A 250cc kart is a bit much for someone with no karting experience.

Rotax is a spec 125 class that uses a centrifugal clutch (although I've heard they are working on a 2spd version). Entry and recurring costs will be significantly cheaper than with a shifter. And the people who run it tend to be more recreational than in shifters. Another option is KT-100, two-stroke karts with clutch drive.

Compared to a street car used at the track, there is more routine maintenance that needs to be done. And things break, so you need to have a spare of almost everything.

And if you want to win in shifters you need to get a motor built, and rebuild it often.

There used to be a great website that dealt with all things karting (www.thekartingwebsite.com) but it appears to have folded. I think the message board has moved to http://www.ekartingnews.com .

Remember, its still racing, so its not cheap. But if you're smart and lucky you can do it for less than road racing.

The only good advice I can give is to go to your local kart track and ask a bunch of questions to the racers and the shop(s). You want to run something that is locally-supported so you can get parts and setup info. Track time is pretty cheap, and most places will rent you a racing kart (not a concession kart) to try it out before you buy.

Driven

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GSRMatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A 250cc kart is a bit much for someone with no karting experience.</TD></TR></TABLE>
If you know him or speak to him ever, PLEASE tell this to Dave Hironaka!

He dumped me into his 250cc shifter kart after only the SECOND TIME EVER driving a shifter.

driving a 250cc shifter is like driving a 500hp camaro... you steer with the gas pedal and every gear puts the kart sideways.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Another option is KT-100, two-stroke karts with clutch drive.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I was thinking this and would be a great start for someone who hasn't raced cars before. I would just think it's kinda slow.

I might be buying a 125cc shifter after the Pro Solo in Wendover, since I got roped into co-driving one.

Shortbus

Well....... I'm currently doing the exact opposite. I've been on the pipe pretty hard as well. I just sold my Trackmagic kart, and am currently building an 89 CRX si for F production and ITA.

Here's the 411 I can give you.

If you have a lot of seat time and have some experience in karts, I'd say you're probably OK to start off with a shifter. HOWEVER!!!!!!!! I've seen TONS of guys walk in and buy a 125 shifter thinking they'll just learn how to drive it. Wrong in 95 percent of cases. There is always the "novice 125 shifter" class which is the one to watch from the stands. This is usually a bunch of guys with lots of dough, but not enough skilz to pay the bills. VERY dangerous..... at least in my neck of the woods. I'm in Portland Oregon, and raced at Pats Acres Karting complex which is one of the nicer sprint tracks in the country. Seeing some of the accidents and injuries sustained in the 125 novice class makes you consider if you even want to be in a kart at all. There are more of a few of them that are "on wheels" 24/7 now.

To keep costs reasonable, and have a freakin' blast, I'd suggest the following:

1) Start with a non-shifter kart. You can always upgrade if you become addicted.
2) Safety equipment needs to be top shelf!!!
3) Get some driving lessons in it to learn how to adjust and drive the kart.
4) LOOK and drive "ahead" in the kart. Don't focus on the track 20 feet in front of you.

I'd start with a "Superbox" or "Rotax Max challenge" class kart. These are both non shift classes. The superbox class, AKA "can class" is based on the tried and true Yamaha KT100 engine which has been out there for ever. Cheap to buy and work on, easy to tune, still pretty fast. The next move up would be to get into the Rotax Challenge karts. They've got plenty of HP and are a "sealed" engine. Meaning that you don't EVER get into it. After a season, you send it off and have it freshened up. They run about 32-33 hp, whereas a 125 shifter runs 37-39 on an average. Still quite fast, but doesn't turn the same lap times because your clutch is catching up coming out of the corner, where the shifter kart is pulling harder. The feeling of speed is much better than in a car. The beautiful thing about a Rotax Max kart is that it has it's own contained starter. With a box/clutch kart you usually use an electric starter, and on a shifter kart you've either got someone pushing you to start, or learn to run and jump in to start... Which is a whole new discussion.

These karts are more than enough to make your butthole pucker. In fact, a 125 shifter kart on a tight enclosed course will run the same times as an indy car. That's barring long straights of course, but the cornering ability of a kart is just silly. When you start, you'll likely find it a bit hard to focus/concentrate on the track when in high load corners. The G's are great!!! Either way, I think you'd have a blast.

Setting up and driving a kart is much different than a car. Adjustments you make to the kart seem just flat wrong when thinking about how to adjust on a car. Becuase of this, you want to get some instruction on how to tweak the thing. At first, you'll be like "Yeah... what are you smoking", when someone tells you what adjustments to make to the kart. Then you'll try a few and learn that everythings about backwards in the kart. A little instruction will go a long way. Braking is key in the kart. They work WAY better than you'd expect. Entering turn 1 at Pat's acres is a good example. It's the end of the front straight, banked left hander. Someone told me to "take the kart in under braking until is scares the **** out of you, then go in another 10 feet". That's about right.

The cost of a kart will likely be much cheaper than a car. You could look at spending 4-5 k on a Rotax Max kart. But there are some other costs. Ie, a stand to roll it around, safety gear, some specialty tools, spare parts, wheels, rain tires, easy-up, etc..... Tires will cost you about 160-180 per set. I was in all my stuff, including a nice open trailer about 9k. When all is said and done, I'll have about 5k in my pocket from selling it all. And my stuff was all perfect!!!, and the chassis was 3 years old. Here's what my kart and set-up looked like&gt;&gt;&gt; http://public.fotki.com/GoKart3/gokart/

The downside, and one of the reasons that I'm coming to cars........ using your neck for a rollbar sucks. I never got my kart shiny side down, but came VERY close. It's a real possibility, so you've got to be willing to take the risk. I've had other karts drive over my rear tires and end up on my sholder/arm/legs. It's just a function of open wheel racing, no way around it. If you want to get into this, go out and watch some races at your local track. Ask a bunch of questions to the people racing and track personnel. They'll give you the local 411 on which classes are more fun/competitive to run in, and which ones are a bit sketchy. Take everyones info with a grain of salt, and WATCH what's going on. You should be able to figure out who you'd want to run with, and who you wouldn't. Let this be a guide to getting into the sport.

SAFETY&gt;&gt;&gt; Go out and get all the best gear you can put your hands on. Karting suits are different than car suits, because you need skid resistance. Also, you need to have a good neck brace. I used a Rector brace which can be purchased thru Trackmagic... http://www.trackmagic.com/inde...ncsrG Another thing you'll need is a good rib brace. I was racing in a kart with a seat that was too loose and bruised my ribs to the point that I couldn't get into a kart for 5 months. Breaking ribs is much nicer than bruising them, it recovers quicker. The Ribtect protector is one of the absolute best... http://www.ribtect.com/ribtect_vest.html I could babble on, but just make sure that you get GREAT safety stuff. Having a "yard sale" crash in a cart at 60-70 MPH will F you up in a hurry.

Now, I know I'm a freakin' NOOB on this board, so take what I've said for what it's worth. FWIW, I'm "respected" on some other boards...

Best of luck to you!
Brad

Evan55

you should not start out in shifters. Most groups require you to have kart racing experience plus a higher level racing license to race shifters. Not to mention you will learn how to better drive a kart in something slower.
One of the direct drive Yamaha KT-100 sprint-enduro classes is the best and cheapest way to start karting. There is a reason that those classes are the largest.

fireant

Thanks for the info, Shortbus!

bb6h22a

Dear All: Thank you all for your replies, and I hope you all won't mind me pestering some of you via IM with further questions. Thank you all again, Hubert.

Shortbus

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hatch2k &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thanks for the info, Shortbus!</TD></TR></TABLE>

No worries!

martini

How well does a big guy fit into these things?

I'm 6'2"-6'3" and 260 lbs.

vtecvoodoo

Hubert,

I`ve taken the intro to karting class and competed in 2 enduros at peris..it`s a blast.

89civicdx

Can you take a non-shifter kart and make it a shifter kart? Or are the chassis different?

bb6h22a

Ryan, Hit me up on AOL.

Driven

maybe i'm on the other side of the fence, but, i'd say start with a 125cc shifter.

a rotax will have you wanting more after a few months and you'll just end up selling it for a shifter anyways.

However, it's a STEEP learning curve when jumping into a shifter with no karting experience. If you are a slow learner, than DEFINITELY avoid a shifter as a first kart.

bb6h22a

I'm going to look into renting (if possible) a shifter and rotax, and try them out over a weekend. If either scare me shitless, maybe I'll reconsider my move. Thank you all again, and we should keep this discussion going.

vtecvoodoo

apex has an intro to shifters class, too. It`s just arrive and drive, so that would be your best bet IMO.

Driven

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bb6h22a &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If either scare me shitless, maybe I'll reconsider my move. </TD></TR></TABLE>
That's usually a good indication that you SHOULD do it

GSRMatt

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by martini &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How well does a big guy fit into these things?

I'm 6'2"-6'3" and 260 lbs.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You can buy large seats, and they have karts with "extended porch", which means a longer foot box. However, unless you run in a senior division or one for big guys (they do have these locally), you will not be able to make minimum weight, and that is a big disadvantage. The Min is 385 for F125, and the kart weighs around 200.

GSRMatt

I'll reinforce what Shortbus mentioned about local shifter drivers, and what I was hinting at when I said some classes are more "recreational" than others. Karting on the danger/risk scale is somewhere between road racing and motorcycling. You have little to no protection, and are on the track in close quarters with yahoos and 17yr olds who think they are the second coming of Senna. These types tend to gravitate towards 125 shifters.

This is the main reason I haven't gotten into any w2w with my kart. I ran a few open track days and a handful of autocrosses with it until the motor died, and I haven't gotten it back together since then.

Don't buy a questionable, old kart that you can't get supported by a local shop. I paid $1500 for mine, complete, and its been a mess.

The biggest advantage is you can throw the kart in the back of a truck and get very cheap open track time almost any day of the week.

GSRMatt

I think you can start at a 125 if you're willing to go slow and not jump into w2w right away, and you're willing to accept the risk that someone might drive over your shoulder at any given moment when you do.

Starting with open track and some autocrosses will get you comfortable with the kart before there are tons of karts around.

However, this will not make you as good a driver as starting with something slower. 125s have front brakes, which most (all?) others don't, and lots of power and no clutch to wait on. Slower karts are very momentum dependent, if you can't carry speed through a corner you'll get crushed on exit waiting for the clutch. Starting with a shifter you will rely on the brakes much more and may never develop the smoothness required of a kt100 or rotax.

If you're after competition more than speed, the spec nature of rotax is the way to go.

DSC240sx

Lost of good info in this thread

I've been considering karting for over a year now.
Having done an HPDE and indoor w2w kart racing (~5hp) once each, I actually enjoyed racing around a track at 30mph than I did going over 100mph at summit point. Granted, it's probably because I was actually racing in the karts.

I'm going to try racing with http://www.endurancekarting.com and http://www.gforcekarts.com some this year to get a bit more experience in karts for cheap and try to decide whether I'd be willing to do that instead of SM.
It'd alot easier to race a "car" that costs $5k rather than one that costs $15k

Shortbus

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by martini &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How well does a big guy fit into these things?

I'm 6'2"-6'3" and 260 lbs.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm 6'4" and 220 lbs. No worries, other than it's easier to fit in an American chassis than an European one. The "drivers area" in the American karts are a little bigger. In the Euro chassis, you sometimes have to cut the nose off and extend the "porch" of the kart.