miamirice

So I always figured a gutted civic with a k20 motor would run a faster lap than an s2000, both cars having similar level of suspension and tires, at a type road course ( say button willow ). But it looks like the lap times are a couple seconds faster at button willow for the s2000. what's the deal?

KdiZzLe

First off are the drivers the same level?

s2000 with stock motor with good brakes, suspension tuning, rcomps and coupled with a good driver can be deadly on the course.

so you say k20a2 swapped civic. so no lsd with a 4.4 fd will run like dogs however still fast in a light chassis.

s2000 are great on the turns however the straight aways the civic should kill em.

miamirice

Same driver, LSD ( tried to emphasize, very similar car pep, except of course the civic should be 500-600 lbs lighter in my estimates )

Lo-Buck EF

Too many variables.

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

yep way too many variables.
driver, weight, engine, brakes etc..
I have been personal witness to a few S2000's getting spanked by too many lesser cars.

miamirice

So let me ask, I am the first person on this forum to have both and develope both for the track? I figured there were dozens of guys that either:

1. Have both

2. Had one and now has switched to the other.

Are any of you out there?

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

Unless you are running a serious budget for the S2000, there just isnt a niche for them.
Parts are expensive, and not everyone has a budget to afford two track cars..
Sure you have a few out there, like N-1 Concepts time attack car, and the Evasive Motorsports one, but they IMO arent the best platform for wheel to wheel racing.

lwnslw

You are soooo lucky most of us can't even keep one on the track, and you have two. I have mine for a few years ek with k20 and so far I have come ahead of a couple of s2000. That doesn't mean I'm faster maybe the s2000 is faster if it's more developed . But you have two you get to drop ridiculous amount of money to track two different cars , of course unless you are talking about driving events where you can drive your street car but still you have two. I can't even buy tires for mine .

lwnslw

Besides let me ask you why you want to have two completely different cars and try to developed both for the track . It takes a long time to understand one car never tought about having two and then throw in different cars , nightmare . Of course if you have tons of cash to dispose of then by all means make yourself happy.

miamirice

1. Bought 2004 s2000. Put Hks coil overs, added negative camber and some R compounds. Car is fantastic. Had a few big offs, no harm no foul but realized now I can't fit in the car if it's properly caged so I convinced my wife it should stay in the family. I can DD and enjoy a drop top in sunny FL.

2. Bought a super clean EG with k20 but the suspension is essentially stock. Want to set it up and do Honda challenge and some NASA stuff.

So this is how i got here. Never expected to have 2 cars for track. So the s2000 has 40k on it and I will occasionally take it out when I run HPDE.

My "butt dyno" says the civic is super lively and will hit higher top speeds, but at homestead last week I was 5-8 seconds slower. It's certainly much more prone to oversteers on turn in. But imagine this car has oem bushings from 95 and no rear sway, etc....

So just looking to hear from some who have TT, raced etc.... Both cars.

miamirice

And this is partly how I got here. Quickly found out as good as the s2000 is, it seems penalized in NASA + I saw one go into the tire wall. The guy spent 8000 and I realized WIFEY will put her foot down so get a cheaper to fix civic to race.

By the way, all you shops that sell parts should avertise "will ship in descrete unmarked box" like the porno industry. I would buy more stuff from you if you did.

Driven

not sure if it matters but...

I had a 220whp CRX (likely similar to the power-to-weight ratio of a K20 Civic), no aero, koni spss and GCs, r comps.

I currently own a stock motor S2000, no aero, just lowering springs, and r comps.

The S2000 is quicker on some tracks, while the CRX is quicker on others. Tighter with more low speed turns, and the CRX is quicker (streets of willow, smmr, etc). Tracks with higher speed turns and it seems like the S2000 feels more planted and can carry more speed.

ultimately, it could be your driving style not adjusting for the FWD from RWD... track layout, power-to-weight ratios being vastly different, etc, etc

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

there wont be many... dont worry about your lap times in HPDE.
Worry more about your learning to drive it.
Big difference in a FF and RWD car in handling.

miamirice

Agree on the FF and RWD. The biggest issue so far has been not having ABS. Not that I used it a ton but the little pedal pulsing was a nice feedback when you can't feel or hear the tires locking



Am worried about lap times. Been doing HPDE for over 10 years, now instruct and race in chump car. Not enough events in south east, thus the purchase to run a car in NASA, Honda challenge. Will I have a bunch of spare parts and motors? I think not. Will I go wheel to wheel racing with it? Absolutely. I am just surprised there are not more folks that have campaigned both cars at some point.

miamirice

This is my gut feeling. The S is so planted.

Stinkycheezmonky

Realize: A LOT of Honda track guys are tracking Hondas because it can be done on a tight budget. That would preclude ownership of two track cars and/or a disposable S2000.

Beyond that, you have an undeveloped, old Civic (rotted, busted bushings, etc.). It shouldn't be compared to anything in reasonably good working order, that's just silly.

miamirice

Fair. Just saying, I thought more folks would have done both at some point. I get the budget, it's why I got out of my e36 m3.

Because the 2 can't be compared as they are now, I have posed this question. And my s2000 is not disposable, that's one reason it's now in the driveway on street tires. I guess it got my attention thatvthere are some guys breaking the 2:00 mark at BW, I believe on street tires. I don't know of a civic doing this.

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

There are plenty of people breaking 2:00min at bw on street tires.
Also unless people have money to spend on two cars there isnt going to be many people doing what you are posing to us.
Again most only have money to develop and run one car, and do it well.

miamirice

OK, I give up. At least 4 times in this thread "Had 1 and now has switched to the other" appears. Yet this thread has become more about owning 2 track cars. Puzzling.

Thanks for the contribution of information that folks are breaking 2 minutes on street tires at BW, much more on point.

cluelessmale

iTrader: (1)

I am confused on how the cars are equal?

In but racing anything can be "equal" but in real life even same driver nothing is equal

Driven

If you want lap times, from what I was able to do:

SMMP 3.1mi
CRX 220whp, R comps - 2:40.967
S2000 TT-C/STR Prepped, RS3s - 2:41.645

LVMS 2.4mi ORC
CRX - 2:05.201
S2000 - 2:08.25

The main difference between the two is, how to drive them. I tossed my CRX into corners and put the power down early. The S2000 requires a significant amount more finesse to drive fast and requires a different driving style to be fast. With the CRX, I was able to be very digital with the throttle... full throttle or off throttle. The S2000 requires more partial throttle inputs.

So, to answer your original question, using the following assumptions:
- K20 EG civic
- gutted, so estimating curb weight 2200lbs with 160lb driver
- Stock K20a2, 197hp
- P:W of 11.1/lb per hp.

- S2000 on suspension on R comps
- 3050lbs with 160lb driver (stock weight around 2890lbs)
- P:W of 12:78/lb per hp.

On paper, the Civic will be faster, but, it sounds like you need to learn the car and trust it's level of grip. It may feel less planted than the S2000, but it'll hold just as well even if it's a little scary at the limit (having the rear end of a FWD car wag behind you is a bit nerve-wrecking).

miamirice

Much thanks;

monSTIer

That's what I was waiting for. More posts like this.

CivicSiRacer

But you are overlooking the obvious, you cannot always rely on numbers. As people said in the beginning too many variables. I can say that I had a 100hp 91 Civic Si on street tires run 10 seconds faster at an autocross versus a Corvette Z06. Why? Because the course was so tight to keep the Corvette Club guys from lighting up their tires and crashing their cars. Whereas my little nimble 100hp Civic I could basically stay flat on the gas pedal the whole course.

Ryank327

Pretty much what driven said in his last couple lines. You may not be as comfortable and confident in the civic yet as you were in the s2k. The more you learn the car the faster you will get, to a point of course.