Infineon FYI - post crash and non-existant yellow in Turn 10
08-09-2005, 01:18 PM
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Infineon FYI - post crash and non-existant yellow in Turn 10
This is an FYI for those who where on track at the time of Nash's unfortunate accident and a bit of a rant on my behalf...
First, thanks to all the NASA NorCal and SoCal guys for the hospitality. The trip was well worth for the PacNW guys despite the bumps we took in all phases of our trip! Mike and his guys did a great job. Thank you.
Now at the driver's meeting after the session where Nash's white car ended up in the T10 wall, we were all berated by the Race Director for running through the scene without slowing for the waiving yellow. One of our newest NW racers was called out in that meeting after spinning to avoid me as I was coming up on the accident and slowing. Called out and questioned about seeing the yellow flag; he said he didn't. By lifting in the appex, Roldan had spun trying to avoid running into the back of my car and brushed the wall...
Well I didn't see a yellow flag either. I was one of the first, if not THE first car to apporoach the T-10 accident and did not see any yellow - standing or waiving. I should have said something at the meeting, but held my tongue thinking I had missed it as well.
It turns out there was not a waiving yellow or standing yellow at the T10 station. We had 2 videos that clearly showed the turn worker looking down the track at the accident scene and was not displaying any flag what-so-ever.
There was a standing yellow at the T9 station as shown in another in-car video from a car well behind myself and Roldan. IMO, Roldan and I were well past that station before the yellow was displayed.
Despite seeing the video, I thought the Race Director was dismissive of the turn worker's oversight (or negligance) and I wanted to let everyone know that if you thought you missed the yellow; you didn't. It wasn't there. The RD had no stick.
Greg ~ who's bent, tired, broke but glad he made the trip.
PS. Props to Roldan for heads up driving and avoiding contact with me.
First, thanks to all the NASA NorCal and SoCal guys for the hospitality. The trip was well worth for the PacNW guys despite the bumps we took in all phases of our trip! Mike and his guys did a great job. Thank you.
Now at the driver's meeting after the session where Nash's white car ended up in the T10 wall, we were all berated by the Race Director for running through the scene without slowing for the waiving yellow. One of our newest NW racers was called out in that meeting after spinning to avoid me as I was coming up on the accident and slowing. Called out and questioned about seeing the yellow flag; he said he didn't. By lifting in the appex, Roldan had spun trying to avoid running into the back of my car and brushed the wall...
Well I didn't see a yellow flag either. I was one of the first, if not THE first car to apporoach the T-10 accident and did not see any yellow - standing or waiving. I should have said something at the meeting, but held my tongue thinking I had missed it as well.
It turns out there was not a waiving yellow or standing yellow at the T10 station. We had 2 videos that clearly showed the turn worker looking down the track at the accident scene and was not displaying any flag what-so-ever.
There was a standing yellow at the T9 station as shown in another in-car video from a car well behind myself and Roldan. IMO, Roldan and I were well past that station before the yellow was displayed.
Despite seeing the video, I thought the Race Director was dismissive of the turn worker's oversight (or negligance) and I wanted to let everyone know that if you thought you missed the yellow; you didn't. It wasn't there. The RD had no stick.
Greg ~ who's bent, tired, broke but glad he made the trip.
PS. Props to Roldan for heads up driving and avoiding contact with me.
08-09-2005, 01:43 PM
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Re: Infineon FYI - post crash and non-existant yellow in Turn 10 (bulldog_RS20)
This isn't the first time Dave Lang has accused us of overdriving a yellow in T10 in the warm-up at Infineon. I am sure it won't be the last. Not because drivers in Norcal are negligent, or that the race director is a hard-***, but because if you have the 8:00 or 8:20 warmup session, you can't see s&*#!
Because of the angle of the sun(directly above the corner worker), and the fact that the cornerworker is in shadow, creates very low contrast viewing as your pupils dilate as you aproach the rising sun. It is almost impossible to read even the huge DODGE ads, let alone a little yellow flag. Race Control, on the other hand, looks at it from almost 70 degrees different, facing more north. They see it fine, and it looks to them like drivers are not responding to a yellow. Of course they aren't, they can't SEE it.
I have made noises about this before, but to no avail. They can't seem to put two and two together that T10 always is ignored in morning warm-up and NEVER AGAIN. I think they just chalk it up to "hot headed drivers" and are done with it. But I think there is a serious safety issue with that turn.
I came by later, and though I was able to slow down and creep by the incident, I had not seen the flag.
I share your frustration. I dislike condescending tones in drivers meetings as much as the next guy, especially when we didn't screw up.
Because of the angle of the sun(directly above the corner worker), and the fact that the cornerworker is in shadow, creates very low contrast viewing as your pupils dilate as you aproach the rising sun. It is almost impossible to read even the huge DODGE ads, let alone a little yellow flag. Race Control, on the other hand, looks at it from almost 70 degrees different, facing more north. They see it fine, and it looks to them like drivers are not responding to a yellow. Of course they aren't, they can't SEE it.
I have made noises about this before, but to no avail. They can't seem to put two and two together that T10 always is ignored in morning warm-up and NEVER AGAIN. I think they just chalk it up to "hot headed drivers" and are done with it. But I think there is a serious safety issue with that turn.
I came by later, and though I was able to slow down and creep by the incident, I had not seen the flag.
I share your frustration. I dislike condescending tones in drivers meetings as much as the next guy, especially when we didn't screw up.
08-09-2005, 01:59 PM
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Re: Infineon FYI - post crash and non-existant yellow in Turn 10 (bulldog_RS20)
Yes, this was unfortunate. The race director was adamant in the drivers meeting about the yellow flag being out in T10, and hammered on everyone about passing under yellow there, but the yellow wasn't out. Poor Roldan came through 10 and to avoid contact with Greg, he spun and hit the tire wall. I came through T10 before Greg did, and watched James lock up the brakes to avoid contact with Nash's car blocking half the track. There was no yellow in T9 or T10 for us.
After hearing about video showing the non-flags, the race director was invited to Rick's trailer where we showed him my in-car and Rick's in-car. Rick's shows a standing yellow just coming out in 9, but nothing in 10. Mine shows no flags at all.
He asked for, and was given a tape with Rick's, mine, and Roldan's video for evidence, and was clearly dissapointed about what happened.
PS, I'm not sure the photo above is Roldan off in T10. I think it might be him off track in T2. I was behind Roldan in T2 when he went off there, and it was pretty dusty.
$.02
After hearing about video showing the non-flags, the race director was invited to Rick's trailer where we showed him my in-car and Rick's in-car. Rick's shows a standing yellow just coming out in 9, but nothing in 10. Mine shows no flags at all.
He asked for, and was given a tape with Rick's, mine, and Roldan's video for evidence, and was clearly dissapointed about what happened.
PS, I'm not sure the photo above is Roldan off in T10. I think it might be him off track in T2. I was behind Roldan in T2 when he went off there, and it was pretty dusty.
$.02
08-09-2005, 08:20 PM
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Re: Infineon FYI - post crash and non-existant yellow in Turn 10 (gotocrx)
We can guarentee that the sun was not responsible for a missed flag. It is clear as day on our videos that no flag was up or waving.
Apparently, Infineon requires its corner workers be used as part of the rental package. Dave asked for and got a copy of our turn 10 videos from 3 sperate in car perspectives. (Thanks to BrianZ for the extra tape and the transfer). He intends to show this to track management as an example of the club not receiving what was paid for.
Having been a race steward (I think = race director) for a couple of years here in the NW, I think Dave did just fine with exception of calling out someone in front of the group. The job starts early, never rests for the entire day, and keeps going well after the weekend. I give him credit for aksing for our videos to take to Infineon and hopefully get improvements for next year and all who use the facility.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bulldog_RS20 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">By lifting in the appex, Roldan had spun trying to avoid running into the back of my car and brushed the wall...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Wait till you see his video and you won't be calling it a brush with the wall. I'll bet he used his window net during impact.
Rick
Apparently, Infineon requires its corner workers be used as part of the rental package. Dave asked for and got a copy of our turn 10 videos from 3 sperate in car perspectives. (Thanks to BrianZ for the extra tape and the transfer). He intends to show this to track management as an example of the club not receiving what was paid for.
Having been a race steward (I think = race director) for a couple of years here in the NW, I think Dave did just fine with exception of calling out someone in front of the group. The job starts early, never rests for the entire day, and keeps going well after the weekend. I give him credit for aksing for our videos to take to Infineon and hopefully get improvements for next year and all who use the facility.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bulldog_RS20 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">By lifting in the appex, Roldan had spun trying to avoid running into the back of my car and brushed the wall...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Wait till you see his video and you won't be calling it a brush with the wall. I'll bet he used his window net during impact.
Rick
08-09-2005, 08:37 PM
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Re: Infineon FYI - post crash and non-existant yellow in Turn 10 (turfer)
That is not the only thing.
I was approached by Dave after the HC race and my podium finish. He informed me that I would not get my race signed off for that day because I passed under yellow in the morning session. I informed him that there must be some mistake because there was no way I passed under yellow. I am very good with flags, and did not miss them. He gave me the story he should about his corner workers always being right, and I told him I had video.
He told me to bring him the video and he would look at it. I said I would get it right up to him.
I took the video up to him and sure enough, there was not even a car around me during the lap except for a car that passed me right after 5 and pulled away. He never said sorry about the mistake, and told me I would still not get signed off because of a small contact during the race.
I told him I disagreed with his decision and it was left at that.
But I missed the podium ceremony which really ticked me off...
Even though this happend, I still had a GREAT time and thought the event was pretty good! Can't wait for the next socal Xover event!
I was approached by Dave after the HC race and my podium finish. He informed me that I would not get my race signed off for that day because I passed under yellow in the morning session. I informed him that there must be some mistake because there was no way I passed under yellow. I am very good with flags, and did not miss them. He gave me the story he should about his corner workers always being right, and I told him I had video.
He told me to bring him the video and he would look at it. I said I would get it right up to him.
I took the video up to him and sure enough, there was not even a car around me during the lap except for a car that passed me right after 5 and pulled away. He never said sorry about the mistake, and told me I would still not get signed off because of a small contact during the race.
I told him I disagreed with his decision and it was left at that.
But I missed the podium ceremony which really ticked me off...
Even though this happend, I still had a GREAT time and thought the event was pretty good! Can't wait for the next socal Xover event!
08-09-2005, 08:48 PM
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Re: Infineon FYI - post crash and non-existant yellow in Turn 10 (prkiller)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prkiller »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Can't wait for the next socal Xover event! </TD></TR></TABLE>
How about we host you all at Portland next year?
</TD></TR></TABLE>How about we host you all at Portland next year?
08-09-2005, 11:46 PM
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Re: Infineon FYI - post crash and non-existant yellow in Turn 10 (turfer)
another thing that really threw me off at Infineon this weekend was one of the corner stations had a 2 huge yellow ads on it... as I came around turn 7 I thought it was a yellow flag and I lifted a little bit. I only made that mistake once, but still kinda annoying.
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08-10-2005, 05:27 AM
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Re: Infineon FYI - post crash and non-existant yellow in Turn 10 (turfer)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turfer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We can guarentee that the sun was not responsible for a missed flag. It is clear as day on our videos that no flag was up or waving.</TD></TR></TABLE>
HA, I knew it. Thanks for the validation. I was feeling like a real dick after the driver's meeting. Glad to know my eyes work after all...
HA, I knew it. Thanks for the validation. I was feeling like a real dick after the driver's meeting. Glad to know my eyes work after all...
08-10-2005, 06:19 AM
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Re: Infineon FYI - post crash and non-existant yellow in Turn 10 (thawley)
Ok... now imagine yourself in my position, there I was sitting dead in what I would call close to the middle of the track, 90 degrees to the line having cars come at me at close to full speed.
Un-nerving to say the least, I looked away to the spot I thought help would come from, and it eventually did. I have to say thank you to all of you for missing me and to the E-Team for their concern, I just wish they had gotten there sooner. Took them at the time what seemed like forever. Then they had to wait due to cars coming through there pretty hot.
I can't imagine how HOT I would have been had I been hit by an oncoming car and there not being a yellow out.
-Nash
Un-nerving to say the least, I looked away to the spot I thought help would come from, and it eventually did. I have to say thank you to all of you for missing me and to the E-Team for their concern, I just wish they had gotten there sooner. Took them at the time what seemed like forever. Then they had to wait due to cars coming through there pretty hot.
I can't imagine how HOT I would have been had I been hit by an oncoming car and there not being a yellow out.
-Nash
08-10-2005, 09:28 AM
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Re: Infineon FYI - post crash and non-existant yellow in Turn 10 (bulldog_RS20)
What bothered me was the Race director's tendancy to publicly humilate people 15 minuets after wrecking their cars. Also, as Greg pointed out after watching the video he simply says to me "I guess you're off the hook." Which would be perfectly acceptable had he not felt the need to call me out during the drivers meeting.
Thanks to everyone that participated. I had an awesome weekend and it was great to meet all of you. Especially the NW crew I would never have made it without you guys.
Oh, and the picture is of me blowing Sunday's race with a spin in T2 but I had a bad start anyway.
Thanks to everyone that participated. I had an awesome weekend and it was great to meet all of you. Especially the NW crew I would never have made it without you guys.
Oh, and the picture is of me blowing Sunday's race with a spin in T2 but I had a bad start anyway.
08-10-2005, 09:48 AM
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Re: Infineon FYI - post crash and non-existant yellow in Turn 10 (turfer)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turfer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
How about we host you all at Portland next year?</TD></TR></TABLE>
How about we host you all at Portland next year?</TD></TR></TABLE>
08-10-2005, 10:15 AM
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Re: (Andrie)
I would be up for it, but I wonder how many will pass if they don't get NASA points for it. We aren't talking about a NASA race, are we?
Thawley -- Who doesn't race for points but likes to race with the guys who do...
Thawley -- Who doesn't race for points but likes to race with the guys who do...
08-10-2005, 10:44 AM
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Re: (Voodoo_s2k)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Voodoo_s2k »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'd imagine that would be a long drive</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's no longer than our drive to Sonoma last weekend. You know, the road goes both ways.
I'm pretty sure we did 15-16 hours total down there. We did 13 hours straight heading home Monday. Depending on your tow speeds (70-75), it's roughly 8-9 hours from Portland to T-Hill.
NASA USTCC has been to Portland several times. We can accomodate all who wish to come and if there's 20 or more cars, we can have our own "Special Race Group". I can help facilitate things on this end, but someone down there will have to figure out your points system and how you guys want to work it out.
Portland is a fast, safe, flat layout, and I'm sure you've all had lots of opportunity to see it if you watch SPEED WC, CART, ALMS, Trans Am, Atlantic, ect...
It's no longer than our drive to Sonoma last weekend. You know, the road goes both ways.
I'm pretty sure we did 15-16 hours total down there. We did 13 hours straight heading home Monday. Depending on your tow speeds (70-75), it's roughly 8-9 hours from Portland to T-Hill.
NASA USTCC has been to Portland several times. We can accomodate all who wish to come and if there's 20 or more cars, we can have our own "Special Race Group". I can help facilitate things on this end, but someone down there will have to figure out your points system and how you guys want to work it out.
Portland is a fast, safe, flat layout, and I'm sure you've all had lots of opportunity to see it if you watch SPEED WC, CART, ALMS, Trans Am, Atlantic, ect...
08-10-2005, 11:10 AM
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Re: (johng)
Well 15-16 hours+ 6-7 hours for most socallers = 21-23 hour tow for most of us to Portland. Unless FedEx ships our cars for us and gives us plane tickets then we will be there. 
Plus I dont thisnk i can make it to portland overnight. Like my Team did for Infenion.
Edo
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johng »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It's no longer than our drive to Sonoma last weekend. You know, the road goes both ways.
I'm pretty sure we did 15-16 hours total down there. We did 13 hours straight heading home Monday. Depending on your tow speeds (70-75), it's roughly 8-9 hours from Portland to T-Hill.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Plus I dont thisnk i can make it to portland overnight. Like my Team did for Infenion.
Edo
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johng »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It's no longer than our drive to Sonoma last weekend. You know, the road goes both ways.
I'm pretty sure we did 15-16 hours total down there. We did 13 hours straight heading home Monday. Depending on your tow speeds (70-75), it's roughly 8-9 hours from Portland to T-Hill.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
08-10-2005, 11:49 AM
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Re: (ITAIntegraLS)
Mapquest says it is 945 miles from LA to Portland.
Seattle to Sonoma was 830 and we pretty much did in 15 hours per the trip computer in my truck.
Nash
Seattle to Sonoma was 830 and we pretty much did in 15 hours per the trip computer in my truck.
Nash
08-10-2005, 12:05 PM
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Re: (rambler)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rambler »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Mapquest says it is 945 miles from LA to Portland.
Seattle to Sonoma was 830 and we pretty much did in 15 hours per the trip computer in my truck.
Nash</TD></TR></TABLE>
The thing is some of us can't skip work on Friday.
Let's say we get home from work at about 6pm and head out at about 8pm.
With a 17 hour, the earliest we could get there is about 1pm on Saturday.
Unless theres like an all day practice on Saturday and qualify/race on Sunday, don't think its possible to make it.
Seattle to Sonoma was 830 and we pretty much did in 15 hours per the trip computer in my truck.
Nash</TD></TR></TABLE>
The thing is some of us can't skip work on Friday.
Let's say we get home from work at about 6pm and head out at about 8pm.
With a 17 hour, the earliest we could get there is about 1pm on Saturday.
Unless theres like an all day practice on Saturday and qualify/race on Sunday, don't think its possible to make it.
08-10-2005, 12:08 PM
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Re: (ITAIntegraLS)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ITAIntegraLS »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well 15-16 hours+ 6-7 hours for most socallers
</TD></TR></TABLE>
It was 6-7 hours from socal to Infineon? If so, I didn't realize it was that far.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
It was 6-7 hours from socal to Infineon? If so, I didn't realize it was that far.
08-10-2005, 12:13 PM
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Re: (johng)
385 miles from my house to the track. 6-7 hours with a fillup of gas. The 3500HD Express Van drinks GAS.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johng »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It was 6-7 hours from socal to Infineon? If so, I didn't realize it was that far.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johng »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It was 6-7 hours from socal to Infineon? If so, I didn't realize it was that far.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
08-10-2005, 01:06 PM
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Re: (ITAIntegraLS)
How many states were represented in Honda-Challenge at Infineon? So far I have California, Arizona, and Washington. Was anyone from Oregon, Nevada, or Colorado?
08-10-2005, 01:27 PM
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Re: (ITAIntegraLS)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ITAIntegraLS »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">385 miles from my house to the track. 6-7 hours with a fillup of gas. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Okay... 7 hours to Sonoma + 12 to Portland. It's a straight shot up I-5 with PIR about 30 seconds from the offramp, so call it 18-19 hours.
No problem
.
You gotta fix that vent in your cylinder first.
Okay... 7 hours to Sonoma + 12 to Portland. It's a straight shot up I-5 with PIR about 30 seconds from the offramp, so call it 18-19 hours.
No problem
.You gotta fix that vent in your cylinder first.
08-10-2005, 01:29 PM
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Re: (Johnny Mac)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How many states were represented in Honda-Challenge at Infineon? So far I have California, Arizona, and Washington. Was anyone from Oregon, Nevada, or Colorado?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Five people from WA and one from OR.
Five people from WA and one from OR.