HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins...
08-02-2005, 08:41 AM
#51
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Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (Willard)
My post has nothing to do with the driver who just lost his life other then to express that my thoughts and prayers are with his family and friends.
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However since safey has been raised as a topic, I'd like to offer this:
The best safety equipment is something money can not buy... it's the quality of the gray matter contained within your skull. Practice good judgement, and take responsibility for yours and the actions of the car in front and behind.
I had this long-***, rambling post, but I think this pretty much expresses it.
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However since safey has been raised as a topic, I'd like to offer this:
The best safety equipment is something money can not buy... it's the quality of the gray matter contained within your skull. Practice good judgement, and take responsibility for yours and the actions of the car in front and behind.
I had this long-***, rambling post, but I think this pretty much expresses it.
08-02-2005, 08:42 AM
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Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (Catch 22)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Don't be surprised if roll bars and harnesses become manditory for DEs within a few years. Its fairly inevitable at this point.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Imagine for a moment that you are not a gear-head, and you are sitting on a jury that is hearing a case involving a high speed fatality in a street car on a race track at an HPDE. Wouldn't you think that a novice driver going 120 mph with no other safety equipment but a borrowed helmet is a little absurd?
I mean really; if you back away from our track oriented mentality for a moment, a roll bar, harness, helmet and a head/neck support SHOULD be required. BTW, all of that stuff added together is cheaper than a powered wheelchair or a nice casket!
I helped instruct a couple of those Road ATL events that C22 mentions below. The Touring group concept was a good one. As I recall, there was a 75mph speed limit...which for a novice at Rd Atl is plenty fast to learn an enjoy. The next group up had higher speed limit and was open to more experienced drivers. The next group had no speed limit, but required basically SCCA IT level safety equip, a comp license and passing anywhere with a point by.
True that about 35 - 40 mph into a fixed object can kill you, but the 75 limit just keeps things reeled in!
Modified by Track rat at 9:56 AM 8/2/2005
Modified by Track rat at 10:05 AM 8/2/2005
Don't be surprised if roll bars and harnesses become manditory for DEs within a few years. Its fairly inevitable at this point.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Imagine for a moment that you are not a gear-head, and you are sitting on a jury that is hearing a case involving a high speed fatality in a street car on a race track at an HPDE. Wouldn't you think that a novice driver going 120 mph with no other safety equipment but a borrowed helmet is a little absurd?
I mean really; if you back away from our track oriented mentality for a moment, a roll bar, harness, helmet and a head/neck support SHOULD be required. BTW, all of that stuff added together is cheaper than a powered wheelchair or a nice casket!
I helped instruct a couple of those Road ATL events that C22 mentions below. The Touring group concept was a good one. As I recall, there was a 75mph speed limit...which for a novice at Rd Atl is plenty fast to learn an enjoy. The next group up had higher speed limit and was open to more experienced drivers. The next group had no speed limit, but required basically SCCA IT level safety equip, a comp license and passing anywhere with a point by.
True that about 35 - 40 mph into a fixed object can kill you, but the 75 limit just keeps things reeled in!
Modified by Track rat at 9:56 AM 8/2/2005
Modified by Track rat at 10:05 AM 8/2/2005
08-02-2005, 08:42 AM
#53
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Re: (nonsense)
Way back when Road Atlanta used to run the Track Days program (one day, 4 sessions for $150 BTW) they had a very good approach to the novice group.
I think they actually called it the Touring group and all drivers were required to follow a pace WITH an instructor in the car. There was no lagging back and gunning it and no general jackassery. You were forced to learn the track and basic skills before you were allowed to even begin to carry any speed.
That seemed to work fairly well, and would be a fine answer to the problem of novices in 400hp cars writing checks their asses can't cash.
BTW - It isn't much different at racing schools. At my SCCA school we had two guys in a couple of those rented Turn One Motorsports NASCAR type cars from CMP. I was in an ITB car, and actually passed one of them on the outside of turns one and two at Roebling. He was in wayyyyy above his head but I think he actually realized it and was backed off a bit.
Another case of more wallet than skill/experience.
I think they actually called it the Touring group and all drivers were required to follow a pace WITH an instructor in the car. There was no lagging back and gunning it and no general jackassery. You were forced to learn the track and basic skills before you were allowed to even begin to carry any speed.
That seemed to work fairly well, and would be a fine answer to the problem of novices in 400hp cars writing checks their asses can't cash.
BTW - It isn't much different at racing schools. At my SCCA school we had two guys in a couple of those rented Turn One Motorsports NASCAR type cars from CMP. I was in an ITB car, and actually passed one of them on the outside of turns one and two at Roebling. He was in wayyyyy above his head but I think he actually realized it and was backed off a bit.
Another case of more wallet than skill/experience.
08-02-2005, 08:48 AM
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Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (emwavey)
I feel a greater risk of death driving to work on any given day than when I'm at a track event. Not to say I don't feel the risk on track, because I do... to the point where it keeps me from running certain tracks. But damn there are some crazy people on the roads. I wouldn't be suprised if, statistically, you are more at risk of death driving to the HPDE on an empty freeway at 6am, than at the event itself.
08-02-2005, 09:01 AM
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Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (Vanilla Ic3)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Vanilla Ic3 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I wouldn't be suprised if, statistically, you are more at risk of death driving to the HPDE on an empty freeway at 6am, than at the event itself. </TD></TR></TABLE>
SCCA did some research on this a few years back, and the data demonstrated that in terms of deaths per mile traveled, passenger cars on public roads lose by a HUGE margin. We have grown to accept that 40,000+ will die on public roads. When some loses their life recreationally at high speed it is more likely to get the producer's attention at 20/20.
SCCA did some research on this a few years back, and the data demonstrated that in terms of deaths per mile traveled, passenger cars on public roads lose by a HUGE margin. We have grown to accept that 40,000+ will die on public roads. When some loses their life recreationally at high speed it is more likely to get the producer's attention at 20/20.
08-02-2005, 09:13 AM
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Re: (speedracer33)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by speedracer33 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you guys know that dent in the back of my car, and the missing tail light? That happened in the turn that killed this man last weekend. </TD></TR></TABLE>
IMO T6 at WGI doesn't get the respect it deserves. While other corners there may be scarier, I know of more incidents resulting in injuries and destroyed cars in club races and DEs in T6 than anywhere else at WGI.
Also, IIRC the tires at T6 are new. I'm pretty sure they were added as part of the safety upgrade that IRL asked for. But I could be wrong. My memory sux.
IMO T6 at WGI doesn't get the respect it deserves. While other corners there may be scarier, I know of more incidents resulting in injuries and destroyed cars in club races and DEs in T6 than anywhere else at WGI.
Also, IIRC the tires at T6 are new. I'm pretty sure they were added as part of the safety upgrade that IRL asked for. But I could be wrong. My memory sux.
08-02-2005, 09:13 AM
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RIP to the driver.
Honestly, we all know being on a track is dangerous. At the driver's meetings everyone is told that driving on a track is dangerous, and possibly life-threatening. At what point does the risk become the responsibility of the person who willingly takes his stock car on the track? As far as I know, it's the instant one puts that helmet on and pulls up to the track entry point.
The thing that really drove the point home was at Gingerman in Michigan. On the wall, they have a series of pictures of a stock, 95-ish M3 hitting the sand pit sideways and rolling a few times. If you haven't been to the track before, they make you examine those pics before you sign the waiver. It may be a little morbid, but maybe if tracks were forced to keep a visual record of incidents that occured at their facility, that each newcomer was forced to look through before signing a waiver, it would help instill a little fear and restraint into people.
As far as safety equipment goes, situational awareness and the right attitude go a long way towards being safe on a track. I agree that roll bars and seats with harnesses should be required for intermediate and advanced run groups, and for higher-HP (250+) novice group cars. Sure, it will take a few people off the list, but in most cases (in my admittedly limited experience) those are the people I wouldn't want on the track with me in the first place.
Honestly, we all know being on a track is dangerous. At the driver's meetings everyone is told that driving on a track is dangerous, and possibly life-threatening. At what point does the risk become the responsibility of the person who willingly takes his stock car on the track? As far as I know, it's the instant one puts that helmet on and pulls up to the track entry point.
The thing that really drove the point home was at Gingerman in Michigan. On the wall, they have a series of pictures of a stock, 95-ish M3 hitting the sand pit sideways and rolling a few times. If you haven't been to the track before, they make you examine those pics before you sign the waiver. It may be a little morbid, but maybe if tracks were forced to keep a visual record of incidents that occured at their facility, that each newcomer was forced to look through before signing a waiver, it would help instill a little fear and restraint into people.
As far as safety equipment goes, situational awareness and the right attitude go a long way towards being safe on a track. I agree that roll bars and seats with harnesses should be required for intermediate and advanced run groups, and for higher-HP (250+) novice group cars. Sure, it will take a few people off the list, but in most cases (in my admittedly limited experience) those are the people I wouldn't want on the track with me in the first place.
08-02-2005, 09:35 AM
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Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (Track rat)
First of all, this is so saddening to read; for the family, the instructor, the organizers, the workers and other participants that will have this in their collective memories, just a very saddening event.
Having said that, the safety concerns this brings up are not that easy to regulate IMO. To say a driver is inherrently safer at a lower speed or in a lower horsepower car is (again, IMO) quite possibly doing a disservice to all that have yet to start to do these events that think "I am safer because of the lower power my car has." Catch, I am sure you remember what we saw in Nascar Bend in 2001 with MADS - for those that were not there, it was a 1.6L Miata w/ a Roll Bar (thank the Lord for that requirement) that flipped in an incident where the a) was an instructor present, and b) was the student's first time on track. Luckily in this case the student and instructor were OK. But that goes to show you that you don't have to be solo, you don't have to be in a high hp car, you don't even have to be in the highest speed section of the track for things to go way wrong. They were lucky and in many ways, we were lucky to get that wake up call; what we do w/ that wake up call is another matter.
Its very common for us to throw out just how safe DE's are and in many ways it is true. But for the guy or gal that reads threads about this very subject on the internet, they must get both sides of the story. DE's are safe w/ respect to injuries per mile (or per hour) but they can and do occur. And the difference between the statistics on the street and those on the track are (I'd hope we can assume by and large) that there are no alcohol or drug related, no running from the police, no street racing, no late for class on your cell phone, no running red lights type incidents that occur on a race track, nearly all incidents involve one or more parties entirely engaged in what they are doing on a surface prepared for what they are doing w/ corner worker safety provided for what they are doing with all the safety equipment they felt need to bear and there are STILL incidents and injuries (and in several cases this year, death).
I would never try to discourage someone from running in a DE but we really need to be smart in how we present it. It is the safest way to drive at the speeds we drive at and in whatever car we choose to do it in but in the end, it is not empiracly safe. Safe is what we make of it and even with all our best intentions, there are still unfortunately those incidents that we cannot prepare for.
Having said that, the safety concerns this brings up are not that easy to regulate IMO. To say a driver is inherrently safer at a lower speed or in a lower horsepower car is (again, IMO) quite possibly doing a disservice to all that have yet to start to do these events that think "I am safer because of the lower power my car has." Catch, I am sure you remember what we saw in Nascar Bend in 2001 with MADS - for those that were not there, it was a 1.6L Miata w/ a Roll Bar (thank the Lord for that requirement) that flipped in an incident where the a) was an instructor present, and b) was the student's first time on track. Luckily in this case the student and instructor were OK. But that goes to show you that you don't have to be solo, you don't have to be in a high hp car, you don't even have to be in the highest speed section of the track for things to go way wrong. They were lucky and in many ways, we were lucky to get that wake up call; what we do w/ that wake up call is another matter.
Its very common for us to throw out just how safe DE's are and in many ways it is true. But for the guy or gal that reads threads about this very subject on the internet, they must get both sides of the story. DE's are safe w/ respect to injuries per mile (or per hour) but they can and do occur. And the difference between the statistics on the street and those on the track are (I'd hope we can assume by and large) that there are no alcohol or drug related, no running from the police, no street racing, no late for class on your cell phone, no running red lights type incidents that occur on a race track, nearly all incidents involve one or more parties entirely engaged in what they are doing on a surface prepared for what they are doing w/ corner worker safety provided for what they are doing with all the safety equipment they felt need to bear and there are STILL incidents and injuries (and in several cases this year, death).
I would never try to discourage someone from running in a DE but we really need to be smart in how we present it. It is the safest way to drive at the speeds we drive at and in whatever car we choose to do it in but in the end, it is not empiracly safe. Safe is what we make of it and even with all our best intentions, there are still unfortunately those incidents that we cannot prepare for.
08-02-2005, 09:41 AM
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When I drove Gingerman at a track day in my miata last year I never saw those pics...
I think the only way a car should be allowed on a racetrack without at least a minimum of safety equiptment is behind a pace car going at a decent enough velocity to be interesting but not out of the limit for a newb. If you want to go faster, get safer.
I've pretty much determined that I'm going to avoid HPDE's without any reasonable safety equiptment. Prepping a lapping day car (and driver) to IT level of safety is worth the piece of mind imo, since regardless of whether its timed or not I'm still pushing a car to its limits on a race track.
I think the only way a car should be allowed on a racetrack without at least a minimum of safety equiptment is behind a pace car going at a decent enough velocity to be interesting but not out of the limit for a newb. If you want to go faster, get safer.
I've pretty much determined that I'm going to avoid HPDE's without any reasonable safety equiptment. Prepping a lapping day car (and driver) to IT level of safety is worth the piece of mind imo, since regardless of whether its timed or not I'm still pushing a car to its limits on a race track.
08-02-2005, 09:47 AM
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Re: (artifex)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by artifex »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
As far as safety equipment goes, situational awareness and the right attitude go a long way towards being safe on a track. I agree that roll bars and seats with harnesses should be required for intermediate and advanced run groups, and for higher-HP (250+) novice group cars. Sure, it will take a few people off the list, but in most cases (in my admittedly limited experience) those are the people I wouldn't want on the track with me in the first place.</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Way back when Road Atlanta used to run the Track Days program (one day, 4 sessions for $150 BTW) they had a very good approach to the novice group.
I think they actually called it the Touring group and all drivers were required to follow a pace WITH an instructor in the car. There was no lagging back and gunning it and no general jackassery. You were forced to learn the track and basic skills before you were allowed to even begin to carry any speed.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
At the SCCA High Performance Driving Experience, they did the first two sessions under yellow for the novice group(s), with instructors and kept the speeds on the front straight under 100mph. What is the gain in going faster anyway?
We also did a "no-brakes" excercise for the second session, again under yellow. I found this excercise helped students, think, plan and look ahead. It also allowed them to understand the idea of carrying speed through a turn.
As far as safety equipment goes, situational awareness and the right attitude go a long way towards being safe on a track. I agree that roll bars and seats with harnesses should be required for intermediate and advanced run groups, and for higher-HP (250+) novice group cars. Sure, it will take a few people off the list, but in most cases (in my admittedly limited experience) those are the people I wouldn't want on the track with me in the first place.</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Way back when Road Atlanta used to run the Track Days program (one day, 4 sessions for $150 BTW) they had a very good approach to the novice group.
I think they actually called it the Touring group and all drivers were required to follow a pace WITH an instructor in the car. There was no lagging back and gunning it and no general jackassery. You were forced to learn the track and basic skills before you were allowed to even begin to carry any speed.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
At the SCCA High Performance Driving Experience, they did the first two sessions under yellow for the novice group(s), with instructors and kept the speeds on the front straight under 100mph. What is the gain in going faster anyway?
We also did a "no-brakes" excercise for the second session, again under yellow. I found this excercise helped students, think, plan and look ahead. It also allowed them to understand the idea of carrying speed through a turn.
08-02-2005, 09:55 AM
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Re: (emwavey)
I always believed that beginners (and even intermediate) should always have qualified instructors in the car, and beginners should never have passengers.
Aren't these the last three DE incidents weve posted here?:
1) California Speedway, Porsche GT, Fatalities: Beginner w/passenger- No Instructor
2) Speedtrial USA, Streets of Willow, STi, Serious: Beginner w/passenger- No Instructor
3) This incident, Porsche, Fatality: Beginner- No instructor
My observation.
Aren't these the last three DE incidents weve posted here?:
1) California Speedway, Porsche GT, Fatalities: Beginner w/passenger- No Instructor
2) Speedtrial USA, Streets of Willow, STi, Serious: Beginner w/passenger- No Instructor
3) This incident, Porsche, Fatality: Beginner- No instructor
My observation.
08-02-2005, 09:56 AM
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Re: (D.CACO)
I don't think the CGT driver was a beginner at all. It may have been one of his first events wit the GT, but I believe he had tracked his 911 extensively before that. I have been known to be wrong though.... once
Brian
Brian
08-02-2005, 10:02 AM
#64
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Re: (skierd)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by skierd »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When I drove Gingerman at a track day in my miata last year I never saw those pics...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Weird, they made me look at them for a while before I could sign anything. They were on the wall across from the counter to the left of the entrance.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Weird, they made me look at them for a while before I could sign anything. They were on the wall across from the counter to the left of the entrance.
08-02-2005, 10:14 AM
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Re: (artifex)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phat-S »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">To say a driver is inherrently safer at a lower speed or in a lower horsepower car is (again, IMO) quite possibly doing a disservice to all that have yet to start to do these events that think "I am safer because of the lower power my car has." Catch, I am sure you remember what we saw in Nascar Bend in 2001 with MADS - for those that were not there, it was a 1.6L Miata w/ a Roll Bar (thank the Lord for that requirement) that flipped in an incident where the a) was an instructor present, and b) was the student's first time on track. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I remember that incident, and I agree with you.
I have been around this stuff for 10 years and have seen cars totalled from VW Rabbits to Callaway Vettes. It can happen to anyone in any car.
But I do believe that its easier for a novice to get in over their head in a Z06 than a VW Rabbit. You can kill yourself in either car, but I think its easier to do with 400hp vs. 90hp.
JMO.
I remember that incident, and I agree with you.
I have been around this stuff for 10 years and have seen cars totalled from VW Rabbits to Callaway Vettes. It can happen to anyone in any car.
But I do believe that its easier for a novice to get in over their head in a Z06 than a VW Rabbit. You can kill yourself in either car, but I think its easier to do with 400hp vs. 90hp.
JMO.
08-02-2005, 10:20 AM
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Re: (artifex)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by artifex »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Weird, they made me look at them for a while before I could sign anything. They were on the wall across from the counter to the left of the entrance. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Maybe I just forgot then.
Weird, they made me look at them for a while before I could sign anything. They were on the wall across from the counter to the left of the entrance. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Maybe I just forgot then.
08-02-2005, 10:21 AM
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Re: (Catch 22)
Another point along those lines is that the bigger, high-end, high horspower cars that are coming out these days are so refined that a novice may not feel that they are getting into trouble. By the time that the traction control, vehicle stability control, and whatever other whiz-bang gadgets give up...it is far past too late.
Our little chitboxes let you know pretty much everything that is going on around you. Plus there is no crutch to lean on...
Our little chitboxes let you know pretty much everything that is going on around you. Plus there is no crutch to lean on...
08-02-2005, 10:38 AM
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Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (RexRacer19)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RexRacer19 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'll throw this one out there too...
The tracks themselves really should put in more safety measures. Mostly with runoff room and gravel traps in the highly likely impact zones. When I look at tracks that meet FIA standards, I see enough runoff, that I would not have near the worries of having a "nasty" crash.
Seeing cars go into the trees at Summit point (more than once) just bothers me. I would gladly pay more to drive on a track that had more safety in its design. I know we are all big kids here, and we willingly put ourselves at risk to go play each weekend, but it would be nice and could potentially increase the fun factor if the places we drove and raced at had a little less danger involved.
JMH $.02</TD></TR></TABLE>
This point really hits home for me. At the Moto GP race at Laguna Seca a lot of the European riders were shitting their pants because of how close the walls were and how little runoff room there is. This is after Laguna Seca had received $2 million in improvements in preparation for this very race. At first I thought, "There Euro bitches need to stop whining" (which they do). But then when I think about it, a lot of the road courses in the US are somewhat **** poor in terms of safety. The US bike guys actually have a pretty shitty deal considering that several people are medivaced from SP every year and there've been more than a handful of racers that suffer critical injuries every year (one AMA guy got paralyzed at Sears Point this year).
The common refrain is that it costs too much to update some of the tracks but I think that there is still a lot that can be done to improve safety at tracks nationwide. Not only in improving existing tracks but in designing new ones.
Some people will vehemently disagree but I think Summit Point Shenandoah is probably the most poorly thought out track to have been built in the last decade. It may be a great technical challenge but it really is stupid to build a track with that many concrete walls only a few feet from the track surface (not to mention that assinine Nurburgring mixing bowl turn).
Anyway Shenandoah is a prime example of the poor safety design of a lot our tracks. I think its something that can and should be substantially improved.
The tracks themselves really should put in more safety measures. Mostly with runoff room and gravel traps in the highly likely impact zones. When I look at tracks that meet FIA standards, I see enough runoff, that I would not have near the worries of having a "nasty" crash.
Seeing cars go into the trees at Summit point (more than once) just bothers me. I would gladly pay more to drive on a track that had more safety in its design. I know we are all big kids here, and we willingly put ourselves at risk to go play each weekend, but it would be nice and could potentially increase the fun factor if the places we drove and raced at had a little less danger involved.
JMH $.02</TD></TR></TABLE>
This point really hits home for me. At the Moto GP race at Laguna Seca a lot of the European riders were shitting their pants because of how close the walls were and how little runoff room there is. This is after Laguna Seca had received $2 million in improvements in preparation for this very race. At first I thought, "There Euro bitches need to stop whining" (which they do). But then when I think about it, a lot of the road courses in the US are somewhat **** poor in terms of safety. The US bike guys actually have a pretty shitty deal considering that several people are medivaced from SP every year and there've been more than a handful of racers that suffer critical injuries every year (one AMA guy got paralyzed at Sears Point this year).
The common refrain is that it costs too much to update some of the tracks but I think that there is still a lot that can be done to improve safety at tracks nationwide. Not only in improving existing tracks but in designing new ones.
Some people will vehemently disagree but I think Summit Point Shenandoah is probably the most poorly thought out track to have been built in the last decade. It may be a great technical challenge but it really is stupid to build a track with that many concrete walls only a few feet from the track surface (not to mention that assinine Nurburgring mixing bowl turn).
Anyway Shenandoah is a prime example of the poor safety design of a lot our tracks. I think its something that can and should be substantially improved.
08-02-2005, 10:43 AM
#69
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Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (MaddMatt)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MaddMatt »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
HPDE: In-car and classroom instruction. No passengers except instructors.
Open track: No in-car or classroom instruction. Sign the waiver and you too can ride in that $500,000 200+mph Porsche with that guy who may or may not know what he's doing.
The *E* in HPDE is how it's different. Otherwise, it's just driving fast.</TD></TR></TABLE>
E- most people use the E to stand for Event or Experance.
and in my experance there is little classroom instruction, yes they go over the line and tell you what to do and not to do but thats about it.
HPDE: In-car and classroom instruction. No passengers except instructors.
Open track: No in-car or classroom instruction. Sign the waiver and you too can ride in that $500,000 200+mph Porsche with that guy who may or may not know what he's doing.
The *E* in HPDE is how it's different. Otherwise, it's just driving fast.</TD></TR></TABLE>
E- most people use the E to stand for Event or Experance.
and in my experance there is little classroom instruction, yes they go over the line and tell you what to do and not to do but thats about it.
08-02-2005, 10:46 AM
#70
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Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (JMU R1)
On the vehicle safety equipment, the conservative side of me says that people should be responsible for their own safety. If you don't want to put a roll bar in your Ferrari then go with God. Unfortunately in our litigious nation that might be an attitude that leads to getting our past time sued out of existence.
I think more drastic and stringent measures are going to have to be taken with HPDE students in the years to come because of the rapidly escalating performance of street cars as well as the exploding popularity of HPDEs.
We need to get a handle on this situation before someone else (the government and/or lawyers) does it for us.
I think more drastic and stringent measures are going to have to be taken with HPDE students in the years to come because of the rapidly escalating performance of street cars as well as the exploding popularity of HPDEs.
We need to get a handle on this situation before someone else (the government and/or lawyers) does it for us.
08-02-2005, 10:51 AM
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Re: (RexRacer19)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RexRacer19 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Another point along those lines is that the bigger, high-end, high horspower cars that are coming out these days are so refined that a novice may not feel that they are getting into trouble. By the time that the traction control, vehicle stability control, and whatever other whiz-bang gadgets give up...it is far past too late.
Our little chitboxes let you know pretty much everything that is going on around you. Plus there is no crutch to lean on...</TD></TR></TABLE>
IN just comparing my wife's relatively new '02 Spec-V to the '93 NX2000 she was driving before, is like night and day. Much more comfy, seems to handle bumps pretty well, its faster, has airbags, crumple zones, etc. It's much easier to drive, but is one better then the other for a particular driver's education? It's certainly more comfortable to drive faster in the Spec-V.
I think the illusion of a safe cocoon that the Spec-V offers could be considered a disservice to a degree. I also wonder what folks who were used to driving Triumphs and MGs think about newer cars in comparison to what it offers to a driver's education.
Ah, I'll just go buy GT4 and go to the local go-kart place to get my fill.
Our little chitboxes let you know pretty much everything that is going on around you. Plus there is no crutch to lean on...</TD></TR></TABLE>
IN just comparing my wife's relatively new '02 Spec-V to the '93 NX2000 she was driving before, is like night and day. Much more comfy, seems to handle bumps pretty well, its faster, has airbags, crumple zones, etc. It's much easier to drive, but is one better then the other for a particular driver's education? It's certainly more comfortable to drive faster in the Spec-V.
I think the illusion of a safe cocoon that the Spec-V offers could be considered a disservice to a degree. I also wonder what folks who were used to driving Triumphs and MGs think about newer cars in comparison to what it offers to a driver's education.
Ah, I'll just go buy GT4 and go to the local go-kart place to get my fill.
08-02-2005, 10:59 AM
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Interesting article on safety in general aviation that pretty much all applies to DE
http://www.kingschools.com/news/BigLie.htm
http://www.kingschools.com/news/BigLie.htm
08-02-2005, 11:14 AM
#73
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Re: (RexRacer19)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RexRacer19 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Another point along those lines is that the bigger, high-end, high horsepower cars that are coming out these days are so refined that a novice may not feel that they are getting into trouble. By the time that the traction control, vehicle stability control, and whatever other whiz-bang gadgets give up...it is far past too late.
Our little chitboxes let you know pretty much everything that is going on around you. Plus there is no crutch to lean on...</TD></TR></TABLE>
So true you can tell where the limit is and it let you know before you cross it, I think all will agree that spinning once, on clear track in a "safe" place, because you are pushing the limits is okay to find that point. I do agree with the "whiz-bang gadgets" might not be well suited but a person that knows the car wouldn't be on these but a novice might and when those systems let go that is it.
And I agree with the safety of HPDE cars. Going high speeds with lower safety but most know to keep everything in check. I think about the safety before I head out every time and also realize that this isn't as safe as watching TV. And I pray everyday at events not only for myself but every driver and car to be watched over and protected to/at/from the track.
Sometimes novice also get pushed to hard from the guys behind them. I mean someone is going to freak out if they are in a turn and they have a M3 up the tail pipe of their Miata. The person in the high hp car also needs to give the person in the low hp car room. I have yet to hold anyone up on the track by not giving point bys yet in my CRX I still get countless people very close to the bumper. So of them will take the point by and put not only themselves but you in a bad situation. I just ignore them and drive my line until there is room to pass but someone new may not be able to ignore the car close behind them.
I think in all it boils down to ego's. Someone trying to show someone or everyone how bad they can be on the track and can end up in big trouble. Ego's are an amazing thing that can get us in so much trouble. Lots of us have done it too, myself not excluded.
Play off low hp cars are better, they are also in the fact that they teach humility. We all hate to get passed but in a low HP it is going to happen. Ego's should not be involved in HPDE's. So people need to remember that HPDE isn't racing.
Our little chitboxes let you know pretty much everything that is going on around you. Plus there is no crutch to lean on...</TD></TR></TABLE>
So true you can tell where the limit is and it let you know before you cross it, I think all will agree that spinning once, on clear track in a "safe" place, because you are pushing the limits is okay to find that point. I do agree with the "whiz-bang gadgets" might not be well suited but a person that knows the car wouldn't be on these but a novice might and when those systems let go that is it.
And I agree with the safety of HPDE cars. Going high speeds with lower safety but most know to keep everything in check. I think about the safety before I head out every time and also realize that this isn't as safe as watching TV. And I pray everyday at events not only for myself but every driver and car to be watched over and protected to/at/from the track.
Sometimes novice also get pushed to hard from the guys behind them. I mean someone is going to freak out if they are in a turn and they have a M3 up the tail pipe of their Miata. The person in the high hp car also needs to give the person in the low hp car room. I have yet to hold anyone up on the track by not giving point bys yet in my CRX I still get countless people very close to the bumper. So of them will take the point by and put not only themselves but you in a bad situation. I just ignore them and drive my line until there is room to pass but someone new may not be able to ignore the car close behind them.
I think in all it boils down to ego's. Someone trying to show someone or everyone how bad they can be on the track and can end up in big trouble. Ego's are an amazing thing that can get us in so much trouble. Lots of us have done it too, myself not excluded.
Play off low hp cars are better, they are also in the fact that they teach humility. We all hate to get passed but in a low HP it is going to happen. Ego's should not be involved in HPDE's. So people need to remember that HPDE isn't racing.
08-02-2005, 11:58 AM
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Re: HPDE fatality last weekend at Watkins... (Jon D)
Since this forum has opened up a bit, I'll use it to beat my "stopwatch" drum.
The INSTANT a driver records a lap time, he/she has made the transition from "high performance driving school/clinic/whatever" to "racing." The purpose has absolutely changed, from improving skills to improving speed. The INSTANT that this change happens, the car should be equipped with the full complement of safety equipment.
This is not to say that mistakes don't happen when drivers are NOT looking at times - only that the likelihood of one getting in over ones head increases dramatically when one does.
K
The INSTANT a driver records a lap time, he/she has made the transition from "high performance driving school/clinic/whatever" to "racing." The purpose has absolutely changed, from improving skills to improving speed. The INSTANT that this change happens, the car should be equipped with the full complement of safety equipment.
This is not to say that mistakes don't happen when drivers are NOT looking at times - only that the likelihood of one getting in over ones head increases dramatically when one does.
K