granracing

Based on people's experiences, how much does heat cycling DOT road racing tires (in my case Hoosier R3S04 tires) extend its life?

0philstireservice

If you do it right it will make a significant difference in the life span of the Hoosiers....

Greg Amy

iTrader: (1)

Ditto. Follow Hoosier's recommendations. - GA

nsxtasy

I assume you are referring to the process of getting the tire up to normal operating temperatures for the first time, such as with the Tire Rack's heat cycling service (see below), and not the process of taking them out on the track for their first hot session.

I've been told that you can accomplish the same thing as the Tire Rack's heat cycling service by driving the tires at normal highway speeds for 15-20 miles and then taking them off the car for 48 hours. That's what I do. It has seemed to add 10-20 percent to the life of the tires but I haven't run enough examples under consistent conditions for a statistically significant conclusion. I'm sure it can't hurt though.

Here's what the Tire Rack says about their heat cycling service:

Competition Tire Heat Cycling Service

As participation in autocrossing, track days, driving schools and road racing continues to grow in popularity, the tire manufacturers have developed unique DOT legal competition tires which feature very sophisticated tread compounds. However just like other high performance parts, these tires will provide more consistent performance and last longer if they are properly broken-in.

The first time a competition tire is used is the most important. During that run, its tread compound is stretched, some of the weaker bonds between the rubber molecules will be broken (which generates some of the heat). If the tires are initially run too hard or too long, some of the stronger bonds will also be broken which will reduces the tire's grip and wear qualities. Running new tires through an easy heat cycle first, and allowing them to relax allows the rubber bonds to relink in a more uniform manner than they were originally manufactured. It actually makes them more consistent in strength and more resistant to losing their strength the next time they are used. An important heat cycling step is that after being brought up to temperature, the tires require a minimum of 24 to 48 hours to relax and reform the bonds between their rubber molecules.

Looking at the heat cycling system, it positions a mounted and inflated tire between rollers which apply pressure while the tire is rolled up to speed. It is very important to note that this allows heat to be generated as a result of deflecting (stretching) the tire within its normal operating range. There is no "artificial" heat added (no oven, no forced air, etc). Then they receive the stamp showing they are Tire Rack heat cycled.

Measuring the tread temperatures with a tire pyrometer we confirmed that in our controlled environment we were able to achieve appropriate and more consistent temperatures across the tire's tread without causing treadwear. All of these are significant improvements over heat cycling tires on our test track. And the 24 to 48 hour waiting period efficiently occurs while the tires are in transit to you. That means the tires are ready to use when they arrive!

The cost of heat cycling is $15 per tire. Avon, Hoosier, Kumho and Yokohama all recommend that their competition tires be "heat cycled" before being run in competition.

Yosshaa

^^^straight for the tire horses mouth.

granracing

Does driving the tires on the highway really do anything? I've always been told it is a waste of time.

I guess related to this, how close does Tire Rack's heat cycling service come to doing it on the track?

nsxtasy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by granracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Does driving the tires on the highway really do anything?</TD></TR></TABLE>

According to the folks at the Tire Rack (many of whom are racers, including some very proficient ones), yes, it really does.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by granracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how close does Tire Rack's heat cycling service come to doing it on the track?</TD></TR></TABLE>

You are confusing two entirely different concepts of "heat cycling". Tire Rack's heat cycling service does the same thing as driving the tires on the street for a while and then removing them from the car. It extends the life of the tires by letting the tire molecules stretch in an EASY fashion (without the high heat of track use) for the first time, and then letting them relax back into place for a couple of days. This is NOT the same thing as taking the tires up to the high heat of track use for the first time, which you should only do AFTER they have been through a mild heat cycle and allowed to relax.

Perhaps you didn't read the description above and on the Tire Rack website, where it says, "If the tires are initially run too hard or too long, some of the stronger bonds will also be broken which will reduces the tire's grip and wear qualities. Running new tires through an easy heat cycle first, and allowing them to relax allows the rubber bonds to relink in a more uniform manner than they were originally manufactured. It actually makes them more consistent in strength and more resistant to losing their strength the next time they are used."

Chris F

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've been told that you can accomplish the same thing as the Tire Rack's heat cycling service by driving the tires at normal highway speeds for 15-20 miles and then taking them off the car for 48 hours. That's what I do.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Crap, I used to take Kumho's and BFG's out for 50+ miles. Wonder if I was wasting my time?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It has seemed to add 10-20 percent to the life of the tires but I haven't run enough examples under consistent conditions for a statistically significant conclusion.</TD></TR></TABLE>

SURE you have!! ()

Relying on faded memory, Tire Rack used to advertise a ridiculously higher life for heat-cycled Victoracers. It was on the order of 30-40% more usable life.

Relying a bit LESS on faded memory, and a website article dated in 1997, it appears the crazy treadlife increase in my head may have been sourced from BFG.

http://members.rennlist.com/94...e.htm
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rennlist &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do tires need heat-cycling?
BFG Team T/A tests show heat cycling gives 50% greater track tread life than untreated R1's. Both untreated and heat-cycled had equal lap times, with the heat cycled being more consistent. Different tires will have different results. </TD></TR></TABLE>


Another quote for Hoosiers:
http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Track/TrackTires.htm
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BH@nsxprime &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> For about $15/tire Tire Rack has some machine that heat cycles tires w/o scuffing them. Hoosier tested the Tire Rack heat cycled tires and found them to last about 20% longer. </TD></TR></TABLE>
(Note, above post was referring to RR compound, but he didn't mention which compound Hoosier tested for sure)


While looking for that information, here's a tidbit found at a previous point in time on Kumho's site (copy from PCA NE site)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Korean Tire Engineer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The hurtled tire can be ruptured during operating. It you drive on the condition gotten stuck different materials like stone Etna in the tread groove, or tire gotten stuck nail, tire can be puked or ruptured. You have to change into new tire in case of having danger that damage might arrive to the Carcass.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Catch 22

Well, here's some real life stuff. This is RR compound, but it counts.

We typically get our Hoosier R3S04 tires track side (on contingency payout if we've been doing well) and then heat cycle them in a practice session. After running them for 10 to 15 minutes we (ideally) set them up for 24 hours. This works GREAT. We still have a set mounted up that I got last July that I've lost track of sessions and heat cycles. We have another set we properly cycled in February, these now have 4 races (2 of them enduros, one at CMP) and 4 qualifying sessions on them. They still look great.

On the other hand, we have one set that we had to grab quickly at VIR due to a flatspotting incident that DIDN'T get properly heat cycled. This sets first time on track was for a 1.5 hour race.
These tires aren't doing all that well. They now have 2 enduros and one qualifying session on them (all on smooth surfaces, Daytona and VIR) and look WORSE than the above mentioned tires with twice as many sessions on them.

If you're wondering why we use so many tires simultaneously... Different sizes for different tracks.

granracing

Yeah, I've read tire rack's version of heat cycling and most importantly Hoosier's. So I do get the theory of the initial heat cycle and molecular effects that they talk about.

I orginally tried doing the highway thing and even going around a circle (at a road that the businesses that used to be on it are now closed). But it didn't generate much heat. For the highway method, I had even thought about lowering the pressures a bit in hopes of generating more heat in the tire. They still only came off the car luke warm.

Often times up north here we don't have practice sessions - only qual. and the race. Yeah, I know there are other ways people could get some track time but it just doen't work for what time and money I have avail. I've been thinking of putting the two new tires on the rear of the car during qualifying and using that as the heat cycling. After qual. I'd take the two new tires off and wait the 24 hours before using them again. Although this version of the heat cycle is optimum, I would still imagine it would be better than nothing. How close do you think this would be to doing it the right way?

(The tire rack method gets much more expensive because of the $60 to heat cycle, shipping costs, and cost to mount that I avoid by getting them at Hoosier tires N.E.) Good example Scott about your experience without heat cycling the tires...

Chris F

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by granracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I orginally tried doing the highway thing and even going around a circle (at a road that the businesses that used to be on it are now closed). But it didn't generate much heat. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Reading Ken's post above, it seems that Tire Rack doesn't heat the tires at all, just gives them some easy flexing to help the rubber bond a bit better. Highway should be good enough, and if you're worried it's not enough lower the pressure to 20 psi or something like that.

nsxtasy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by granracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How close do you think this would be to doing it the right way?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't know.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by granracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">(The tire rack method gets much more expensive because of the $60 to heat cycle, shipping costs, and cost to mount that I avoid by getting them at Hoosier tires N.E.)</TD></TR></TABLE>

Not true. As I mentioned above, you can save the $60 by heat cycling the tires on the street instead of using the Tire Rack's service. As for the other costs (whether you're talking about the Tire Rack or some other dealer), you have to pay mounting costs no matter where you buy your tires, and for most folks, the disadvantage of paying shipping is offset by the advantage of not paying sales tax that you pay when buying them in person. I'm not saying Tire Rack is always less expensive, but you need to do an apples-to-apples comparison. As with most things, shop around (for price as well as service etc, depending on what you're looking for)...

Hracer

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by granracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how much does heat cycling DOT road racing tires (in my case Hoosier R3S04 tires) extend its life? </TD></TR></TABLE>
What do people mean by extending its life - is it the tread life or stick life you are referring to? A tire can look real good, but if it lost its stick, it can be at least 1 second slower than a new tire if not more.

descartesfool

The correct heat cycling driving distance is 100 miles as proven by the TireRack test below using BF Goodrich's now discontinued R compound tire, the R1, so 15-20 miles is not proven to be enough. No guarantee that the results here apply in the same exact way to other tire models, but it gives a clue. Drive 50 miles on the highway, turn around and drive back. Let the tires cool for 48 hours. You are now heat cycled. No need to slide the tires, as just the normal deflection caused by rolling will heat the tires. The rolling resistance force over and above the aerodynamic drag force is mostly caused by the tire distortion while rolling and this energy is expended as heat in the tire.

Heat Cycling of BF Goodrich Comp T/A R1 Tires

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Pre-competition heat cycling of BFGoodrich Comp T/A R1 230 tires has been recommended by Team T/A for several years. This initial low stress tire stretching has been credited with providing longer tire life and more consistent performance.

On May 21, 1997, Team T/A conducted tests at Michelin's Laurens Proving Grounds in South Carolina. Comp T/A R1 230 tires that were heat cycled by using several different methods were compared to non-heat cycled tires. The course featured an extremely abrasive surface which was developed to wear out tires quickly.

The Team T/A test compared sets of tires prepared in the following ways.

Not heat cycled
Heat cycled by regular driving for 100 continuous highway miles 3 to 4 weeks in advance of the track test
Heat cycled by regular driving for 100 continuous highway miles 48 hours in advance of the track test
The Tire Rack's Heat Cycling Service 48 hours in advance of the track test
The Team T/A treadwear test results showed that non-heat cycled tires wore out in 13 laps, and that all of the heat cycled tires lasted 19 laps, or about a 50% wear improvement. The lap times confirmed that all of the heat cycled tires provided more consistent lap times that were equivalent to the best laps of the non-heat cycled tires.

Is there a performance advantage to Tire Rack heat cycling vs. on-the-car? No. Is there a convenience advantage? Absolutely! The Tire Rack heat cycling service eliminates the need to drive the race car or it's tires on the street/highway.

Before we started preparing tires on our heat cycling machine, we found that cold temperatures or rainy weather could prevent us from heat cycling tires when we wanted. During our heat cycling service we control the tire's environment.

BF Goodrich recommends that it is best to heat cycle tires 48 or more hours before an event, and that heat cycling them weeks ahead doesn't provide any additional advantage. A racer ordering tires during the week of an event will have little chance to heat cycle his tires 48 hours before the event unless he is willing to pay for overnight shipping. With The Tire Rack's heat cycling service, the 48 hour waiting period goes by while the tires are shipped more economically.

Before this test, BF Goodrich Team T/A had been unable to confirm or deny the validity of The Tire Rack's heat cycling service. Now that the testing has been concluded, we have BF Goodrich's acknowledgement that The Tire Rack's heat cycling service is equivalent to on-the-car methods.


It is also a common misconception that you have to slide the tires around to get them hot enough. This is not true, as it is the distortion of the carcass that requires energy. As quoted on the AvonRacing web site:

It is relatively easy to generate temperature in the driving tyres as they are transmitting power most of the time. The front tyres, however, will need to be given more time and be loaded up progressively before they will be 'In' fully. It should be noted that it is the loading of tyres that introduces the significant heat, not sliding or wheelspinning.

AvonRacing's advice is:
Cooper-Avon Racing Tyres recommend that a standard scrubbing in procedure be used whenever possible (conditions and regulations allowing). This consists of subjecting the tyres through one gentle heat cycle, gradually loading them up whilst avoiding drifting the car. This should take about three to four laps of a circuit where the lap time is in the region of 60 to 100 seconds. The last lap should only be about 80% race speed.

The reason you don't want to slide the car while heat cycling is this:
There are several difficulties that arise when using racing tyres if they are not scrubbed in prior to use. The most common is "Cold Graining", where the layer of the tread compound in contact with the track, fails in shear with the layer below.

So if you slide the tires before the compound has had time to cool down after a proper heat cycling, you risk permanently reducing the tire's performance due to the shearing that an occur. Each manufacturer has its own method of heat cycling tires, but if you can't drive on the track and let a set cool for 48 hours on a spare set of wheels, then just use the 100 mile highway drive in reasonably warm weather. Turning whie driving will of course load the tire more and add heat by causing extra crcass distortion, and that is what you want. Ideally you check with a pyrometer that the tire has reached its operating temperature, which is over 160 F for most R compounds for a full heat cycle. The actual time the tire should be kept at this "operating temperature" for heat cycling is not always clear from manufacturers. However only proof I have seen for street driving the tire to heat cylce it instead of track driving as recommended by Hoosier for example is that 1997 test above. It is possible that less mileage will do it, but I have not seen proof.



Modified by descartesfool at 7:14 PM 6/12/2005

nsxtasy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The correct heat cycling driving distance is 100 miles as proven by the TireRack test below using BF Goodrich's now discontinued R compound tire, the R1</TD></TR></TABLE>

Not true. The ONLY distance used for heat cycling in their test was 100 miles. That does not prove that 100 miles is "correct" or that any lower figure is insufficient or "incorrect" (or, more specifically, that 15-20 miles is or isn't enough). They would have had to test tires that were driven 15-20 miles vs the ones driven 100 miles to "prove" that the longer distance is necessary. They didn't. If 15-20 miles is enough to heat cycle the tires, then the tires driven 100 miles would also be heat cycled. What the test proves is that driving 100 miles is equivalent to the Tire Rack heat cycling service. The test doesn't prove anything about driving 15-20 miles that might be different from driving 100 miles.

However, the test does disprove the notion that heat cycling the tires (either by driving on the highway or using the Tire Rack's machines) is "a waste of time".

FWIW, the folks who have told me that 15-20 miles on the highway is enough for heat cycling are friends of mine who work at the Tire Rack in various capacities.

smokin rubber

Why wont the manafactuer of the tires heat cycle them? If they all seem to want the best product avalible, and they all reccomend heat cycling?

I dont get it..

descartesfool

Logic says you can only deduce the following:
Given there is proof (documented test) that 100 miles of highway driving is equivalent to heat cycling on the track for one model of tire and there is no proof shown that 15-20 miles is equivalent, until an other proof is shown, 100 miles is only distance you can be sure is equivalent to track heat cycling.

Of course it is possible that 15-20 miles or some other distance is equivalent, but one must first show the proof, as in test various methods and see wear on tire as in test I quoted such that one could believe it. I personally have heard very incorrect information about tires from more than one person at the TireRack (for example pressure and temperature recommendations that were completely at odds with the manufacturer's own recommendations I later found). I guess it just depends on the reliability of your source. There might be tests they have not published, but until i see them, logic says 100 miles is equivalent.

One of the best explanations I have read about heat cycling and its effects on tires is the one originally written by Jim Fogarty, and Team T/A in 1996.

Heat Cycles
Heat cycling, or scrubbing tires, is a very useful thing to know about. But it is not something that many people understand or use properly.

A tire will perform differently when it is new, compared to how it will perform after it has been through a heat cycle. This is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, in a lot of cases, it is a very good thing indeed. In the case of R1s, a heat cycle will make the tire wear much longer, and be more consistent in its performance. By this I mean that the tire will not change as much during a race or practice session if it has been heat cycled. There will be a slight drop in performance during a session - slightly less grip -with new or non heat-cycled tires, though.

Let's look at what a heat cycle is and what it does to the tire. We will concentrate on the tread compound, but there are similar benefits for the other compounds in the tire that actually hold everything together.

To understand what happens in a heat cycle, let's talk about the molecules that make up the compound. For those of you who don't remember your high school chemistry classes, the molecules that make up polymers are long chains of atoms. To visualize this, think of a bunch of rubber bands. Imagine that they have all been cut with a pair of scissors so that they are not closed loops anymore. Now, throw a bunch of them into a box and shake it up. Those represent the polymer molecules.

In addition to being highly intermingled, polymer molecules are connected, or attracted, to each other by a variety of chemical networks. For simplicity, we will refer to all of these networks as chemical bonds. These bonds, or attractions, are what are important. During the manufacturing process, these bonds form in a more-or-less disorganized way. Some of the bonds are very short and strong. Some of them are very long and weak. The rest of them vary between the two.

Now, when you take that tire and run it, things start to happen. The molecules get stretched and compressed. This first causes the weaker bonds that connect these molecules to break. When the bonds break, heat is generated. As the heat builds and the flexing continues, more bonds break, more heat is generated, stronger bonds break, more heat is generated, and so on... Remember that these bonds are what connect the molecules to each other. They give the compound its strength. When this strength is reduced, the compound can't grip the road surface as well. It rubs off instead of holding together. The result is less grip, more slip on the road surface, and more heat generated. You can see that it can become a self-perpetuating kind of thing. How fast this all occurs determines how fast the tires tend to lose grip.

So then, what happens in a heat cycle that can improve this pretty bleak situation? Well, actually, the situation described above is the first step in the heat cycle process. You want to break all of those "uneven" bonds. What happens next is where the real magic of alchemy comes into play.

After these bonds have broken, and this heat has been generated, and the tires are finally allowed to be set aside and relax, the bonds tend to REFORM! But now they reform to a much more uniform manner! This means that they are more consistent in strength. Therefore, the compound becomes more resistant to losing its strength the next time the tires are run. That doesn't mean that you can't make the tires give up anymore. If you exceed the limits of the compound - both mechanical and thermal - the bonds will still break. But they will be more resistant to it because they are working together now as equals - in parallel - instead of individually - in series. And, given the time to relax again, they will reform again in the same uniform manner.

Here is the most important thing to learn and remember about this process. These bonds MUST be given ENOUGH TIME to do their magical reformation. In the case of the R1, the tires must be allowed to relax for an absolute minimum of 24 hrs. after that initial "break in." We sometimes tell people to wait up to 48 hrs. to be sure. But, we really haven't seen any additional advantage to waiting any longer than that. If you don't give the tires enough time to reform those bonds, then you are going out on tires with a weakened compound and their performance will show it. Understanding how this works, and how to use it to your advantage, is important to getting the most from your tires.

Let's talk now about the number of heat cycles you can expect out of a tire. We've heard people talk about Brand-X or Brand-Y or Brand-Z only being good for X number of heat cycles. We really have not seen this with the Comp T/A R1. You should be able to expect the same performance level from the tire after 20 heat cycles as you get after 1 - assuming, of course, that tread wear isn't an issue. Additional heat cycles beyond the first don't make the tire "harder." The tire can and will change over time just due to "aging." But that is due to other influences like ultraviolet light, ozone, etc. And that time period, with proper care, should be at least a couple of years.

So, to recap, heat cycling will improve the consistency and longevity of your R1s. The first heat cycle is the most critical. Subsequent heat cycles do not cause any detriment to the performance of the tire. It is still possible to overheat heat-cycled tires. Assuming you don't do any other permanent damage to them and give them the minimum of 24 hrs. to relax afterwards, they should be fine for later use.

This description is essentially an extended version of what AvonRacing said, where the outer rubber shears off more rapidly if you don't properly heat cycle the tire, and this shearing propensity is what causes them to last more or less long.

nsxtasy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Of course it is possible that 15-20 miles or some other distance is equivalent, but one must first show the proof, as in test various methods and see wear on tire as in test I quoted such that one could believe it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I know logic. And I know bullsh!t. That's bullsh!t.

While the most **** retentive person in the world can claim that he can't be absolutely sure of anything without having seen proof, I know the people that told me this. Each of them knows way more about tires than anyone here; they are the most knowledgeable technical experts at the biggest tire retailer in the country. And they say that 15-20 miles are enough.

As I see it, there is WAY too much bullsh!t on this board, with people here claiming everything has to be documented with signed affidavits and published and vetted in technical journals, otherwise whatever is being claimed is a damned lie. Which, to me, is the epitome of PURE bullsh!t - when you don't have facts to disprove what is being said, so you simply say "you have no proof". It's a cop-out when someone has nothing concrete to say, and I've seen fraud like that perpetrated too many times on this board.

Believe what you want to believe, and don't believe what you don't want to believe. I believe I know bullsh!t when I see it.

.RJ

Ken, you presented one source (tire rack). Claude presented another (bfg).

Then you called his information bullshit, citing nothing but a bunch of vague references..... Thats rather unneccesary, dont you think? The best thing we can do is just to utilize all the resources available to us and make our best informed decisions - and even then there's probably not one "right" or "wrong" answer depending on the car, the tires, the climate, the roads and so forth.

nsxtasy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ken, you presented one source (tire rack). Claude presented another (bfg).</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, Claude did not present ANYTHING that says that 15-20 miles doesn't heat cycle the tires. Nothing at all.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Then you called his information bullshit</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's a total mischaracterization of what I said. Shame on you, Ryan. Anyone can see through that shameful tactic. And it's one you've used in the past, too - where you claim something was said, that never was.

I did NOT call all of his information bullsh!t, as your post falsely implies. I referred specifically to his claim that the Tire Rack experts, who say 15-20 miles is sufficient, are wrong for giving "unproven" information (which it is not). I included THAT PORTION of his post in mine, so anyone can see that my statement referred to THAT STATEMENT, and not his entire post as your post shamefully implies, Ryan. For example, I am not challenging what he said the BFG guy said.

So, in a nutshell - you are once again trying to distract and confuse things by adding bullsh!t of your own, by mischaracterizing my post.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">citing nothing but a bunch of vague references.....</TD></TR></TABLE>

The people who work at the Tire Rack are not "vague references". I am friends with people there in management positions, in technical leadership positions, and in sales positions. Many of them are racers. This is the benefit of living 100 miles from their headquarters. Their people who are racers come to track events, and others (like their technical director) come to give talks at car club meetings. That's how those of us who are active in clubs in the Chicago area get to know them.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thats rather unneccesary, dont you think?</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, I don't agree. Time and time again, people here - and you know that you're one of the worst offenders (if not THE worst offender) - think that everything is wrong if it's not done exactly the way YOU do it, and you challenge anyone who says or does anything different from you, just to make yourself look smart (although it usually just makes you look like a wise guy, which is another thing entirely).

It's like the people who didn't want to believe that the size of the contact patch doesn't change when wider tires are used, if the same car and the same air pressure is used. Even though the Tire Rack has MEASURED the contact patches and found that the size is the same (within their &lt;2 percent measurement error).

Or the people who didn't want to believe the U.S. sales numbers of ITR's, even though they came directly from the marketing folks at American Honda headquarters.

These are just two more examples. Like I say, this happens over and over here.

To challenge wrong information from people who don't know what they're talking about is one thing. But to challenge information that's coming from the best experts in the field - simply to make yourself look smart and NOT to advance the technical knowledge here - is, well, bullsh!t. And too much of that goes on here.

.RJ

*sigh*

nevermind.

descartesfool

*sigh*

Just cite the name of your reference that is a tire expert and knows for a fact that 15-20 miles of highway driving is equivalent to track heat cycling as the recommended procedure by Hoosier for example. I see no evidence whatsoever that your claim has any backup. Show it and then we can all believe it and be beter informed. Is this some kind of top secret information?

Perhaps you should try a different board if you find this one so un-rewarding as you say.

nsxtasy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just cite the name of your reference that is a tire expert and knows for a fact that 15-20 miles of highway driving is equivalent to track heat cycling as the recommended procedure by Hoosier for example.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not going to post their names here, so that every nitwit can call them and disrupt their day in order to ask for more proof and vetting and technical documentation.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Perhaps you should try a different board if you find this one so un-rewarding as ou say.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Perhaps you should try a different board, since you obviously don't have the maturity to understand that other people go to work and have a job to do, and that job does not include talking to every idiot who posts bullsh!t demands that people's names get posted so that their lives can be disrupted.

This is the same kind of bullsh!t that you and Ryan and others have tried to pull in the past. Like in the previous case with one of the sources of information at American Honda on how many ITRs have been sold (posted by someone else in a letter), where people even admitted trying to call that person, which would of course disrupt his work. Exact same thing.

I swear, the level of immaturity and insensitivity to the disruption of people's professional lives here is absolutely astounding.

Catch 22

Well, how about this bullshit...

Pretty much everyone that runs IT in the SEDIV SCCA runs Hoosiers and pretty much everyone gets them TRACKSIDE from Appalachian Race Tire. Appalachian does NOT offer any sort of Tire Rackesque heat cycling service.

So we end up with a WHOLE BUNCH of racers heat cycling on test days and in practice sessions. Lets call these sessions 15 minutes/15 miles to keep things simple. This is working pretty damned well for a whole bunch of people. If it wasn't, we'd all be ordering tires from tire rack. If you've seen the activity at the Appalachian trailer on ANY race weekend, you know there isn't much Tire Racking going on.

But I have no cut and pastes from technical experts, so ignore this post.

Scott, who notes that Tire Rack has a $10 heat cycle service to sell so its not surprising that they recommend it.

nsxtasy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Lets call these sessions 15 minutes/15 miles to keep things simple.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh, no! Where's your PROOF that these sessions were 15 miles? Did you write down the odometer readings? Do you have sworn affidavits from people who observed the odometer readings? What are their names, so we can call and ask them about them? How do you know they weren't actually 25 miles instead of 15 miles? How do you know that 15 miles is "correct" and that 25 miles or 10 miles isn't "correct"?

Obviously, the previous paragraph intended as humor - but those are the kinds of silly questions we've seen in this topic.

Seriously, thanks for providing some real world observations regarding the effectiveness of one type of heat cycling. Even though your criticism of the Tire Rack's recommendation of using their heat cycling service (by claiming that it's for their own benefit) is totally negated by their experts' simultaneous recommendation of heat cycling the tires yourself on the highway, which gives them no benefit whatsoever...