Scrapin4DR

Hey guys, don't post here much anymore but i need some advice.

I got out of the honda scene 3-4 years ago and went into the bmw scene. Then i started autocrossing. I autocross my 95 325i but it has blown shocks and whatnot, so i thought about autocrossing a eg 4 door. It's a 93, i'd sell my car to buy suspension for the civic and more video equipment (different story on the video part).

so my question is?

How competitive is this little beast? I heard the double wishbone suspension is great on fwd cars and we all know honda is famous for this. The car is at least 600lbs lighter than my bmw and it just feels alot more nimbler, but it's got no power .

What do you folks say autox the civic or keep the bimmer and upgrade its suspension next year when i have the money for it?

jloehlein

The BMW should be more competitive than an EG 4 door. A well setup, engine swapped EG hatch can do pretty well in SMF. The 4 door seems to me like it would be too long and it would be a pain to get it to rotate enough, not to mention it's heavier too.

vbspec

Dude you may want to come off some specifics like.... whats done to the car? I mean locally with minimal (and very limited) mods and street tires it may be quick in ST. ANd if you want to throw $4-$5K or more at it it maybe marginanly fast in you region in which ever SP, P or SM class the chassis falls into.

Stinkycheezmonky

A class for both cars would help a lot. "325i" and "93 Sedan" don't mean squat, as they both can fit into like 4 different classes, depending on setup.

Scrapin4DR

Sorry should've been more specific.

Nothing is done to the civic right now, but the plan was coilovers, front sway bar, all the bushings replaced. 215's all around. Stock engine would probably remain in there until next year and I might throw a B20 in there.

As far as bmw, i race it in D stock right now ,since it's stock except exhaust.

I know civic is alot more nimbler and lighter than the bmw but my main concern is fwd vs. rwd deal. I know alotta people prefer rwd , myself included, but i'm not looking to spend all my money on racing the damn thing anyway. My love for honda's and double wishbone suspension is why i only want to do honda or bmw. (maybe a 240 but that's not in the question now)

Stinkycheezmonky

Alright, so with that mish-mash of stuff you're considering doing to the Civic, what is your goal with it? Competitive within it's class? Faster (in general) than the BMW? What?

You're a BMW guy, so I can understand you not knowing this stuff, but:
Coilovers bump you into whatever other class than stock (ST, Prepared, SM, etc.), a front sway won't do anything for you, and no idea why you're setting 215-series tires as your size of choice when there are only 1 or 2 tires available in that width and a reasonable diameter (15,16, with the 16s bumping you out of stock class as well).

I would say take a step back, evaluate what your goals are, then move forward with research from there.

Hemix

lol...you have been out of the scene for a while.

Edit: oh, I thought he meant NT-215s or whatever the old Azenis were, not the series. You so smart Stinky.

Stinkycheezmonky

Well, I might be wrong and you could be correct. The guy would have to have been living in a dungeon for the last 4 years though

Egezzy

iTrader: (2)

even to run in stock class your wheel has to be oem size with offset being +/- 4mm if i recall correctly.

also the "competitiveness"(is that a word?? lol) comes alot from the driver seat.

The Destroyer

It depends on trim levels for weight. Sedans are not as heavy as you think. As for wheelbase, it is the same as a coupe.

Stinkycheezmonky

Destroyer, do you know how the wheelbase compares to that of an Integra?

The Destroyer

This is taken from wikipedia.

Wheelbase
92-95 civic:
101.3 in (257 cm) (hatchback)
103.2 in (262 cm) (coupe & sedan)
94-01 Integra:
Hatchback: 2570 mm (101.2 in)
Sedan: 2620 mm (103.1 in)

Weights:
'92-'93 DX M/T 2,275 lb (1,032 kg) (sedan)
'92-'93 LX M/T 2,319 lb (1,052 kg) (sedan)
'92-'93 EX M/T 2,480 lb (1,125 kg) (sedan)

'92-'93 DX M/T 2,224 lb (1,009 kg) (coupe)
'92-'93 EX M/T 2,390 lb (1,084 kg) (coupe)

'92-'93 CX M/T 2,094 lb (950 kg) (hatch)
92-'93 Si M/T 2,326 lb (1,055 kg) (hatch)


Id say go the cheapest route possible, and gain seat time and maintenance.

Scrapin4DR

LOL, i meant 215, as the width of the tire.

lowside67

The civic could be a decent contender for the ST class... it will not be a winning car but if prepped well and had the ***** driven off of it you can certainly be a force to be reckoned with.

As you see from my sig, I had a DSP prepped BMW and now have an SM/SMF prepped Civic. They are very different animals and quite frankly both are underwhelming in anything close to stock form.

solo-x

Those weights make me laugh. My 93 EX Coupe was 2250lbs with hardly anything done to remove weight. My 93 Si was 2095lbs with another 20lbs that could be lost within the ST rule set. My car was something like the 3rd or 4th lightest car the last year I took it to nationals and took the pro finale win and finished 4th after coning away my fastest runs both days. An EG is competitive, but a sedan might not be the right platform. The added wheelbase helps put power down, but the 103" wheelbase of the coupe was a touch tougher to get enough rotation in. I've commented elsewhere many times about how competitive this chassis can be in Solo.

Scrapin4DR

I think i saw your sig on bimmerforums and wanted to talk to you about your civic vs. bmw, but i got disctracted.

Which one would you say is more fun? Are you running a stock engine in the honda? i know bmw is probably alot more fun, because of the power and sideways action, but honda's can be fun in the turning business too

lowside67

Both of my cars are well prepped and worlds different from what you are talking about so take my feedback with a grain of salt. The BMW was definitely a "nicer" ride. If you are serious about going fast, things like "sideways action" are not really a concern.

The BMW was 2900lbs, 200rwhp, 200rwtq. The Civic is 2100lbs, 195whp, 130wtq (slightly modified JDM B18C-R swap). In terms of power they are pretty close with the Civic having the edge on power to weight and torque to weight (barely). The BMW was flared on all four corners to accept 285-30-18 race tires - my Civic I run 255-40-13F F225-45-13R.

The bottom line is it sounds like you are not serious enough and dont have the budget to truly prep either car to a winning status, so you really should be driving whichever one you like the most. For me that probably would have been the BMW... I loved the BMW; I like the Civic, but ultimately for me it is just a tool to get a job done.

Stinkycheezmonky

OP still hasn't defined his goals. "Right tool to get the job done" is correct, but what is his job?

CivicSiRacer

I'm slowly (3 years so far with no money) building my 93 EG Si into ST trim. After owning a 91 Civic Si I learned alot from that car and trying the same things for my 93. Granted the 91 had no AC and racing seats, I can probably still get it down around 2150-2200lbs. I weighed it last year and was at 2250lbs (my 91 EF Si was 2080lbs with stereo (I need my toons), rear speakers, 30-35lbs seats, full exhaust).

Probably going to use a offset sized front wheels and tires, and maybe going with a straight exhaust after the cat.

Scrapin4DR

Sounds about what i imagined it to be. I am, in fact, pretty serious about it, but my car oversteers alot on stock 15s, so i figured yours may do it too just not as much as mine, that's why i mentioned the sidways action.

As far as my goals, as one of the posters mentioned, i'd like to run in either stx or sm, i'm not really sure. I'm trying to weigh my options before i set my budget and class. I just don't wanna build the wrong car and regret it later on, which will kill my motivation to race and further build the car.

Scrapin4DR

I forgot to mention, i'd like to win and everything, but fun factor is more important until i can get into tracking the car more. For example, right now it would have to be my daily/autox car. I don't have a daily yet. It's just that i'm having to invest money in a couple more things, so i'm trying to divide it out equally. I have to split the budget between my 2 passions, film making and racing. It's a little tough

Egezzy

iTrader: (2)

then scout your region and look at your stock class and then look at st class. pick the class with the least cars or go to an event and watch the classes. pick accordingly.