ross2004

I keep trying to get him to convert to COP, but he keeps coming up with excuses...

iwannarace

Nice rally start.

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

this was his ignition switch this time... he thinks.

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

too bad i should have waited for the second flag

Dublocivic

Ahhh whatever, you sent it.

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

if i would have had my splitter on... it wouldnt have lasted the start

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

here is the one picture i have so far from the event... the photographer has kidney stones and has been slowed down a lot. The car was "okay" at this event but i'm always looking to get it where i want it... so i'm making major changes... against my usualy rule of change one thing at a time.



The last item on the P0340 sheet says to check the battery. Well thats the easiest thing for me to do... and low and behold the battery was extremely low. So i pulled the alternator to have it checked... sure enough it was bad.





luckily my back up alternator checked out (tested at the parts store) and is now in the car. The deep cycle is still charging... but i'll check delete the code and start the car to make sure this takes care of things.



next up... front spring change... i'm going to test a similar setup to what i ran on the old car. It goes against motion rations and all of that but in the end you have to make changes to how the car is acting and not straight math. right now... ALL 8th gen civic off the shelf coil over systems (that i have talked to... Redshift and Fortune auto) are based off of motion ratio and autox car feedback... NOT race car feedback.









yes... i took the time to clean these up a bit. Id hate to see what BCs look like on a car that is driven every day and sits outside... thats all i'm saing.



next up is to get the rear springs in and swap them in.... hopefully the big ASR bar i ordered also shows up.

iwannarace

Great pic!

Mr Hammond

What rates are you on now? 12K?

Good luck. I’ve had one in order for five weeks.

Which front sway? DX?

Mr Hammond

p.s. How did you run your kill switch? I’m going ground to cage and trying to figure out the easiest way to run the rest i.e. the least amount of work.

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

yeah i'm not hoding my breath on the rear sway bar...

12k/20K .... and i'm bascially flipping them. I dont think the rear sway bar can even work with an 1100ish lbs rear spring... because its not really compressing enough. and i'm burning down the front tires because the front is too soft (especially for the weight) and its rolling over the tire/over compressing and lifting the inside just enough to have it spin.

I have all the front sway bars that fit the 8th gen (2 or 3) so i will likely use the smallest one.

I run the basic two pole system... Alternator/battery on one side... starter/engine bay fuse box power on the other side.

Mr Hammond

Hmmm. I guess I’ll be going through these same learning pains as well. There’s only a handful of people I’ve found running this chassis and haven’t found what’s worked for them or where the 10-12K front and 20-22K rear comes from.


So this?

https://robrobinette.com/S2000CutoffSwitch.htm

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

the kill switch you liked is technically a 4 pole... this is what i used.
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...sp?RecID=12710

the 10-12k fronts and the +20K rears come straight from doing "motion ratio" math. I did all the measuring and math myself and talked to Chris at redshift and to a guy that had one of the first sets of Fortune coils for autox (he confirmed they did everything based off of motion ratios).

people racing these on a road course DO NOT share their setups (i will... but you just dont see threads or FB posts saying anything outside of the box motion ratio stuff)... now, these motion ratio setups "seem" to work great for autox guys BUT thats because the car will be loose until the rear tires are hot on a road course... autox guys never get their rears as hot as we do (i dont care what they say... 60 seconds on whatever isnt going to compare to 40 minutes on a road course). the autox guys are the ones perpetuating the standard motion ratio stuff.

i get a lot of "well these cars have so much grip the autox cars get on 2 wheels".... they run HUGE front tires... 255 or more if they can... large 200TW tire grip well off the break and fall off fast, combined with the maybe 2.5 inches of droop in these cars (with shock settings they only droop 1.25 inches in anger) out back, combined with soft front springs (and a very heavy front)... combined with very violent turn ins... it will roll over the front tire and lift the rear tire at the same time AKA be on 2 wheels. its not a show of grip, its a sign of chassis/suspension deficiencies.

NOW... dont take that as me bad mouthing the chassis/suspension/car that we both committed to build and run (at this point). It just means "we" have to do the work that others wont share... I personally will share what i do and what works... because the faster i can get the other 8/9th gens around me (we will have 4 in Mid Atlantic) and get the other guys in other regions (you)... the faster i have to go on track (motivation) and the more hands can help push this chassis development.

additionally... the Honda Challenge rules on these cars were written before anyone was able to race these cars (except them rich folks in the SCCA, which could never cross over because they wrote their rules to a point where cross overs couldnt occur). we need a good set of data (similar setups, but slightly different) to confirm the rules or to make changes. I already have enough data to push for more than 1 camber adjustment can be used on the front of mcpherson strut cars... i've already submitted it for all mcpherson struts (not just 8th gens).

Mr Hammond

Ah okay, I don't know why I thought you had a 4-pole, but now that you link that, I remember seeing that earlier in the thread. I'm copying your mounting location because it just makes sense.

That's what I gathered as well from lurking around the 8/9 RRAX fb group. I'd love to know what Kevin Boehm used on that white STL run offs winner or even what DJ runs in GLTC. It seems that Dustin Bartee, Brain DeFrees, Brian Maeng, and Justin Tilus are all on some iteration of the "on paper" suspension set up, but I've never had a chance to talk to them to confirm or what development they've done. Plus some do time trials which doesn't exactly equate either.

Yeah, I've definitely noticed that. It seems like people did the math, stated the results as gospel, and that's what everyone runs. Chris advised 12K/22K for me and said that people have gone stiffer, but came back down to those settings. Unsure who or what discipline he is referring to, but seems like this chassis is fairly popular for autox, maybe some track days or time trials, but hard to find people W2W and developing them.

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. I come from three prior golden era chassis, but felt like it was time to move on, and the 8th gen, 06 specifically, seemed like the best bang for the buck on paper, and I think it is for what you get out of the box, but maybe was naive as to how much setup info was out there.

I attempted to try to find a spot for this chassis in SCCA, but I don't like the rules for this car in any class. Kevin made the car competitive in STL, but that was 2015 and 2016 and I've seen at least one or two do okay in STU with a K24, but Touring and Improved Touring require stock front brakes, not a freaking chance, and STL limits to 7" wide wheels and does allow brake upgrades, but basically TSX rotors (300x28) and whatever caliper you can make work. At least there is some brake upgrade, but not loving a 225 Hooiser on a 17x7 in a 2700lbs car with probably 220+whp in STL trim. So I finally went back to the HC rules and the H2 rules make way more sense for the car since they were written by people that understand Hondas. How much camber are you getting out of the plates?

Chrisfrom1986

iTrader: (1)

Where is the best tech resource for this chassis? My turd fg1 would like to know.

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

"maybe" the 8/9th gen civic track/race facebook group... but as facebook groups go, its hard to find real information at times (though i did find most of my hood vent information there). I'm doing my best to share my changes and provide data on what works.

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

I race with Brian Maeng and have known him since college (many moons ago)... most of his car issues are the slow speed push and lack of power (9th gen handicap)... he is definitely on the "do the math" setup. He also runs a staggered setup.
Boehm and DJ are pretty quiet about stuff and if you ask them if the 12k/20k is right... they will just tell you that you are on the right track. some folks hide their cards. I get it... i choose not to. This on paper setup doesnt work for me... maybe it works for other folks... but it doesnt fit my driving style at all.

You really have to look at what type of tires (hoo hoo vs. toyo vs. 200TW) AND you need to look at the sizes they are running front and back. I'm trying to make a square setup work and i probably shouldnt. i just wanted to go square to help figure the car out on the minimum amount of tires (i rotate every race day).

i feel the +2008 is the "best chassis" if only for ease of using the CAN BUS to do gauges on the cheap. 06/07s have to run exterior gauges and it make the engine bay even tighter... along with another challenge of keeping under dash wiring clean.

Chrisfrom1986

iTrader: (1)

I was really hoping for a forum source, I don't use FB how they intend so it's hard for me to find content in groups.

Are you still running the TL-S brembo setup? I'm debating going with TL base since I don't have a TL-S to get calipers from or RL with adaptors which would be overkill obviously for a non track car.

Do you think the money would be better spent looking for brembo calipers over the RL adaptors and 350z rotors?

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

I think this forum post is the easiest to find... and might provide the most info... i have searched and really havent found a build for road race anywhere else.... not that isnt some "look at my car... look at my new sponsorship"

To be honest.. if you arent tracking your car, any BBK is just for looks. they come with fitment complications too... especially these TL-S. that being said, IMHO you need the +15mm spacers up front on these cars for handling and looks. from the factory they are about .9 inches narrower in the front than in the back... +15 on each side gets you .2 inches wider in the front and changes the look of the car IMO.

i will say this... the TL-S setup works VERY well and it is compatible with the stock ABS system... two draw backs... you need to get the TL-S master cylinder AND even with that, the brake pedal isnt as high up as it should be (again, IMHO). My TL-S setup was fairly cheap at under $1k for all of it with coating of the calipers (if you have a decent local side hustle coater, they can get it done for about $100)... that $1k doesnt include the $300 race brake pads i run. these pads will last me for a LONG time, but its still a cost.

Data shows the brake curve on this 8th gen/TL-S/ST43 setup is WAY better than my EM1/986/ST43 setup... but i have a feeling its really an apples to oranges comparison (wounded EM1 chassis with no abs vs the newer car with a semi smart ABS).

I am likely to make a change to test another setup... maybe the Genisis Brembo or a custom AP setup... something with slightly smaller caliper piston area to bring up my brake pedal a bit (i'll be on the TL-S master still). The AP system is really tempting (you know, when they finally come in stock again... this flags them as made in china fyi (like all other calipers at this point) and refinished somewhere else)... because for "slightly" more money i can get cheaper pads... but the buy back would be about 5 years since my Raybestos pads last an entire year.

Mr Hammond

Yeah, that’s another great point. Some on R7s, some on RRs, and some on 200s in all kinds of sizes. I’m going to experiment with 245/225 Toyos on 8s and 7s respectively.

Chrisfrom1986

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for such an in depth reply, I didn't want to clutter up your thread with my dumb questions. I don't track it but am fairly hard on the brakes anyway. I'm in a dx so I'm basically running the stock EG/DC sized brakes in a much heavier chassis. I really would like to use the TL-S setup over the massive iron single piston base and it looks like I can get a pair of Cardone rebuild for about $100.

However I'm at the limit as far as wheel/fender fitment goes, I'm using 18x8 +30 wheels with 235/40 on stock dx springs and I rub about 2mm on hard compression. Where is the 15mm spacer coming into play? Is there a list somewhere of Brembo applications and their bolt spacing? I did pick up a pair from a Sentra SER but I haven't measured them yet to see if the bolt spacing is compatible.

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

Some people know... i'm not thrilled with the status quo, so i'm making drastic changes that no one else is doing in these cars.... but i got side tracked with some leaks this weekend.







this is not what you want to find when your car is on jackstands with the wheels off ... on BOTH fronts.





Its hard to see... but both are leaking at the donut gasket that mates the two halfs together. I replaced them but i might not have got them installed "just right" and with the higher pressures of racing... well they didnt last.



Next i found some "oil"... i'm not sure if its trans or motor oil... but i am pretty sure its motor oil.





Some of it is coming from the flywheel cover area... most of it actually. the main seal looked great and there was no signs of leaking when the motor was out of the car.. so i didnt replace it. that was a mistake i think. BUT this location is puzzling.... yes thats leaking from where the slave pushes the bearing rod on the trans. i'll clean this up and worry about it later.






Finally i got to what i was intending to do... this is a 6 inch spring in the rear (which had 4 inch springs)... there is zero adjustability left (to lower the car) SO i have a set of 5 inch springs coming.... why am i not buying 4 inch springs... WELL the 4 inch spring is too short and doesnt allow full droop (there isnt much in this chassis) because it comes unloaded... and not helpers arent strong enough to help in this case (i tired them)... so a slightly loaded longer spring will gain me another 1.25 (ish) inches of droop (this is the max droop because its limited by the sway bar).







Last night i was a little bored and we didnt need to cook (leftovers from the BBQ and all)... so i installed my race car AC... which will be wired into the same setup as my heater core (because i wont need heat and AC at the same time) and i will be able to swap between the two system with the change of 1 waterproof connector. I cut up (and welded on) a spare and unneeded bottom mount drivers side seat mount to hold my Engels cooler/cool suit setup.







we will be adjusting ride height and stuff as soon as the springs come in. rebuilding calipers begins tomorrow

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

i needed the 15mm spacer to clear the barrel of my wheel.... and thats with 7mm shaved off my caliper to bring it more inboard (technically only -6mm because there is a +1mm spacer on the inside of the rotor).

I'll get you pics up wednesday or thursday because i have to overhaul my TL-S calipers anyway.

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

to legally chase down camber and caster... i purchased (according to redshift owner Chris) the last set of these top hats... the next version that will be out in 6-8 weeks will not have adjustable caster but be in the "optimal" caster to camber area with adjustable camber.

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

Ride height is set (raised it up 1/2-/34 of an inch)... new top hats are installed... cool suit switch is in... and the splitter is mostly finished (but i'm making a new blade next weekend)



The original top hats left some room in the strut tower and had wide spacing on the pinch bolt.





The new ones install much tighter to the strut tower.. and its is well thought out.





notice how the strut is clocked in the new top hats... that is a 30 degree clock (not 30* of caster) on the top hat, which is what Chris said he found to be optimal... and what the "new" top hats will be set to. The new hats wont be adjustable like these, but will be significantly cheaper because they will have much less machine work. See below:





that is 36 holes to adjust the struts orientation in the strut tower to get more caster.... 36x10 is 360... a 360* adjustment in 10 degree increments. Also note the 3 pinch bolt hole options that are spaced just enough to fit "max" camber in the car.



The cool suit just needs to get wired in and tested!