KIWI

Exactly... If you look at the way the nozzle is directed straight onto about a two inch diameter area on the inside face of the rotor, imagine that rotor glowing red hot and youre directing a stream of cold air directly onto the flat surface of one side... What's happening to the other face? Eventually the rotor is going to distort and bend towards the cool side.

As I said, this is in no way a critisism of Courts Ducting system which is great. It just needs some juggling to get the air directed to the center of the rotors.

Kiwi

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

So your saying the air needs to be directed at the veins on either side of the rotor(front or rear) right Jeff?
So that the air is cooling a bigger area and what better way to cool the surface faster than to hit the veins that are disopating the heat??
Excuse my poor MS paint illustration

wupike21

I think Kiwi is referring to having the air come from inside the rotor hat, through the rotor veins and out the ends, like this (I hope you don't mind me modifying your work )

wupike21

If you have removed your front dust shields, you can fab some replacement ones w/ ducting holes in them: http://www.sandmracing.com/m_b05_ducts.html

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

Excellent... Im no artist. Thanks

slammed_93_hatch

IMO MOST honda's shouldn't need ducting... at least the super dupper CRAZY effective brake ducts.

Maybe if you're running CMP or something, but there are some REALLY good pads out there. If you're fading pads, upgrade.

My personal favorites are Cobalt Friction, and Raybestos. A lot of guys also run Carbo-techs and love them....

Also run good fluid.

the vacum stuff is super corrugated and i'd stay away from it. Use Aluminum tubing, and this stuff.

http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?tp...action=product

or for even better results
http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?tp...action=product

I'd get my brakes working with out fading AND THEN add some ducting to cool things off a bit.

Really the hardest car in brakes for HC is the H4 integra.

The ITS GSR is pretty hard to but with the right pads and fluid you will be golden.

KIWI

This is exactly what I'm getting at...

Kiwi

KIWI

At the risk of contradicting myself, I agree entirely...
I don't see any need for ducting in any Honda, Our #65 H1 car is as fast, or faster than anything out there, We run Stoptech 13" brakes with Dixcel pads and have never ever had brake fade problems.
However I do remember running the car in USTCC back in 2000 at Road America with stock Type R Brakes and Hawke pads and suffering severe brake fade after about three laps, but that's the longest straight in the country and I doubt that all the ducting in the world would have made any difference.

Since then with better/ bigger brakes, it's never been a problem. Even in the 25 hour at T/Hill.

Kiwi

RR98ITR

The brake cooling thing prompts me to think about contradictory priorities.

If the discs and pads go overtemp, you get pad fade, fluid boiling, and excessive temps into your wheel bearings. So minimum somehow you have to stay below the pad/fluid threshold - by a safe margin. If you're "undersized" on your rotors maybe you have to have ducted cooling to realize this, whereas if you're fortunate enough to have amply sized rotors maybe you don't need ducted cooling. But say you're undersized, now you're swinging from peak temp to as low as you have to go to prevent overtemp. That swing is exascerbated thermal/mechanical stress on the rotor, causing it's heat checking and cracking to proceed at a faster pace. If you're more rightsized (bigger/heavier/regrettier) you get to operate in a narrower temp window and presumably enjoy longer rotor life - and in case you're using expensive rotors that'd be a pretty nice thing and after all part of the reason you popped for that setup in the first place. It takes a little more power to spin those rotors.

So it all starts with what'ya got and what'yer getting out of it. You pay for everything with something else, that's just the way it is, but you ought to know, really know, the cost and benefit.

Scott, who OT'd HT-8's (1600F) on his ITR rotors without cooling (I left my cooling air implements off one time not necessarily on purpose and learned better of it) and hasn't conducted any more experiments of that kind...of course Carbon/Carbon is The Answer...but...nevermind...

descartesfool

One does of course have to consider velocity. As in 1/2mv^2. When you are pinning the speedo in your DC2 down the straight as you pass a GT3 and then into the bus stop at the Glen, brakes are really suffering. So how much cooling you need depends a lot on how much power you are pushing to the wheels, as that determine your velocity and then square that which determines your energy which determines your heat into the rotors and thus your peak and average rotor temps. I get circumferential grooving on the rotors, a sure sign of overheating. No pad is going to do anything to change the rotor temp. Better pad might resist fade, but has nothing much to do with rotor temps since it is the tires that determine how fast you can shed speed. Better cooling makes for longer lasting parts, and a better day. Staying off the brakes helps too, but I rather think that full gas or full brake is the faster way round, and that makes everything so hot, including the poor driver.

Now if I could just fit bigger rotors into my wheels!

_decker

iTrader: (15)

I built this because the velocity stack to my comptech icebox sits right behind the turn signal. It could easily be turned into brake ducts and only cost me $30 for a used set of OEM turn signals I bought from somebody in the classifieds. I used a dremel, file and a sharpie.



The corners still work but I have no turn signal on that side. Not a big deal since nobody in Ohio uses turn signals anyways.

powerneedy

im in the middle of something along those lines for brakes

court76wi

Oh no, no offence taken. Constructive criticism is always welcomed. When it comes down to it, all the ideas and opinions in thread, it depends upon – amount of $ you want to spend, amount of time you to want spend, feasibility of the design, and most importantly what your race rules allow.

1. Bigger and better brakes. Always a good upgrade, of course new pads should be a first try to see if those are sufficient before bigger rotors and calipers come into play. I think a lot of people here on HT run Honda Challenge or exclusively track their cars. In Improved Touring (IT), and I know there are other drivers and classes here as well, brake upgrades are not allowed. Except for pads, fluids, and brake lines. You have to use OEM style rotors and calipers for that car model. And the rotors need to be smooth, so unfortunately no high-tech slotted rotors made of tungsten, cobalt, or depleted-uranium are allowed. This OEM rotor use plays into #2.

2. Rotor warping. I have no doubt that occurs — especially when you're running super high endurance pads and rotors, and where the rotors will last for a relatively long time (in racing terms). If memory serves, I believe Kiwi runs 2x DC2 HC Integra's with K24s. But that falls back on what you're allowed and how much you want to spend. The only higher-quality smooth rotors I have seen so far are sold by RacingBrake, and I don't know if those are really worth the money or not. Most IT drivers run std, cheap OEM equivalent rotors, and I believe Spec Miata has to run OEM smooth rotors as well.

Of course with OEM sized rotors, you will run into heating problems earlier, but because groups such as IT require you to use the stock motor (no K-series transplants or hot cams allowed guys!!) your braking system workout is limited. Maximum wheel and tire size are also limited (in my case 15x7 and 225, 205 for SM) which also puts a damper on ultimate go fast speed. Now also with OEM smooth rotors, excessive grooving is inevitable and reduces rotor life which is why most go cheap. Slotted rotors help prevent grooving, and most are generally more durable due to their composition making them last longer.



Here are new Centric front rotors and EBC Yellow pads after two 15 lap events and my form of brake ducting. (max speed approx 110 mph on the main straight at MAM, first time I saw the track so I'm slow) The rotors have the consistency of a nylon record, only more excessive and the pads match the grooves. Now this is actually mild, running Hawk blues or other more aggressive pads will just eat the rotors up. Both front rotors cost me about $70, front pads another $70 or so, w/cheaper ATE fluid. So combine how quick OEM rotors wear down (surface and/or cracking) and their cost of replacement, actual rotor warpage due to uneven brake cooling probably isn't something that really comes into play. Most IT and Spec Miata racers will tell you running down to NAPA or Autozone and replacing rotors are common. But of course cherry red rotors with uneven cooling probably do warp some, especially if you get a long useful life out of them. Anyone that welds can tell you that 3/16" steel is still easy to distort.

Rears didn't fair much better... (that orange junk used to be the black anti-corrosive coating)

Again, not to go against what Kiwi is saying, but most people that mention they have warped rotors is actually due to pad deposits left on the rotors after coming to a complete stop or locking up the wheels under braking. I had brake oscillation immediately after the pictures above were taken, which you would normally label as warped rotors. But you could clearly see the pad imprints on the rotors, and the pad deposits wore off after another 20-30 minutes of mild use (the Yellows were aggressive enough to wear off their own deposits). All oscillations are now gone and the brakes are back to normal. Some people would have turned or replaced their rotors right away. Some rotor warpage is also due to people hammering their lug nuts on to death and uneven stress. Several nice articles below describing rotor warpage, sizing, etc…

http://www.centricparts.com/files/Ce...ake%20Disc.pdf
http://www.centricparts.com/files/Ce...%20Removal.pdf
http://www.centricparts.com/index.ph...nts/doc/82/raw
http://www.centricparts.com/files/Ce...erformance.pdf
http://www.centricparts.com/files/Ce...20Upgrades.pdf

3. Regarding ducting piping and using dust shields to feed the inside of the rotors. Corrugated shop-vac hose is far from optimum. But it's cheap and a quick run to Menards or Home Depot. The inside diameter of the hose is roughly 2", so hopefully the increased air velocity combined with a large duct opening still feeds a decent amount of air. Also we have long, nice, smooth bends for good air flow. A lot of designs I see with high temp hose actually have more, sharper bends and crinks, so who knows what is more optimum. But using smoother, high-temp hose in any setup is a definate improvement. If I ever go back to get my masters in mech engineering maybe I can simulate a wind-tunnel test to see what loses we're talking about. Would be interesting. Also the effect of screens/grates over the openings.

Link to S&M air shield brake ducting. I think this is the ideal brake cooling system everyone is looking for. Now not to be overly critical of S&Ms design, but an overhaul is required for it to be effective on the track. Even with SOLO and daily driver use I can see the hose tearing easily by how it's wedged in there (remember this also follows the full turn-to-turn of the steering wheel). And even if that isn't an issue, by how close the hose is to the rotors those are going to melt down regardless if it's high-temp hose. (if the zip ties don't fatigue first) Personally for myself, I prefer the dust shields off due to ease of maintenance, but would consider putting something similar back on if that setup is feasible. Again, I think the S&M design is on the right track, but even like my setup it needs improvements.
(2 cent comment – I honestly can't see a ducting need for SOLO unless you're hooked on cheap pads, but even that's still questionable)

As Kiwi said, no offense taken to comments on my design, this is just what I did with what I had and what I wanted to spend. And no offence meant in my replies to other ideas on this thread either. I've seen some turn-signal designs as also shown on the thread, but if you actually yank out your turn signal the opening for that one light is relatively small. Still better than nothing at all though. There are pros and cons of everything. It's good to hear both…

Happy modding!!

Court

P.S. If someone can accomplish something like S&M did that's reliable for track use and doesn't look like spaghetti I'd love to see it! Of course for FWD use, no S2000 designs!

court76wi

Nicely said.

slammed_93_hatch

Switch to a good pad, cobalt XR2 raybestos ST41.

I think you will be amazed at what a pad like one of the above can do.

Hawk blues are good just very old technology. EBC... Ya serously try a cobalt or raybestos, and your braking will be much better.

court76wi

Curious, do you run these pads on OEM type rotors? Braking and fade so far I'm fine, so currently no need to go more expensive in that direction. If you're saying Cobalt or Raybestos won't chew an OEM rotor up then I'll try 'em...

slammed_93_hatch

I did for years, and many other guys still do.

Stinkycheezmonky

Cobalts have been relatively ok for me on OEM-type rotors. They're not GREAT with rotors, but then I don't know anything that would be (OEM ITR rotor). There's only so much abuse a heatsink of that size can take.

court76wi

For under $100 I'm not going to complain much. I stop just as fast as any other car on the track. Now if rotor wear gets excessive or I start getting brake fade I might upgrade. I might need more pedal pressure than some, but eh.

I hear a lot of people knock EBC, but yet most people that comment have never tried the Yellows. Which are the only ones I have tried. They might not be a true race pad or good for heavier cars, faster cars, or enduro. But if they keep suiting me fine I have no other problems with them for the price. Due to time and proximity to tracks I have no illusion of being a national contender, so I'm up for saving a couple bucks. Heck, the salvage yard is a common stop for most parts...

slammed_93_hatch

Stinky, I think pads can make a difference in rotor wear.

I remember when the blues were very popular, and remember many people complaining about how harsh they were on the rotors.

With the cobalts, I've never ever seen that kind of groving. Most H4 cars went a year on one set of pads and rotors. The rotors never had any groving like that just lots of tiny hair line cracks. The integra's didn't get quite a year out of them IIRC. I didn't need to change my rotors when my pads were done (after tons of races/testing), just did it because..

On H1 (230whp 2500lbs ITR brakes), never any groving with cobalts or Raybestos. Same goes for carbotechs, on a few different H1 cars and a few H2 cars.
I've seen rotors just straight crack, with the above pads, but never groving like that.

If the OP is happy with EBC stuff great, good for him.

Stinkycheezmonky

I agree, I was just saying that no rotor is going to be 100% pleasant to a rotor, given the design that rotors are meant to wear out. Cobalts have been the best race pad I've used, and I can typically use two sets of pads for one set of rotors.

I have had pads that were much more abusive.

court76wi

I'm not completely against trying something new. I know some friends that run Cobalts and so far they're the only pads to run over 24 hrs straight enduro with stock rotors/calipers on their ITR. If I was to run Cobalt, what would you recommend for the fronts? XR3s? I was getting too much rear brake last year, so I'm thinking about going with a higher grade OEM type rear pad. Fully loaded I'm currently at 2670 lbs.

Thoughts??

slammed_93_hatch

I'd go with the XR2. Judging from what I've seen from other ITS gsrs..

The rear pad thing.. I don't seems that everyone is very very different in what they like/dont have rear lockup issues with.

regdog77

what about something like this. i would think this would help dissipate the heat.http://varanusniloticus.com/1ostatni...s/P1080226.jpg

Andy Hollis

I was wondering about this when I saw the C360R Civics that ran up front in the Grand-Am race last week at Daytona. They had ducting hose outlets pointed straight at the inside face of the rotor.

--Andy