joel n

little info on why we are looking at the B18B. We run in a catch all class. ITS,ITE,IT7, and all modified IT car along with modern street cars. Right now its mostly all E36 M3, 3 right now and maybe 5 next year. Us in the Del Sol with a B17A1, a E30 1800LBS 260HP Very fast car plus driver. 3sec faster, and a targa ready 300HP cobalt. A few others but they only show up once and a while.
The BMWs tend to run the show right now. The M3s are all around 3200LBS and a few are making 300WHP for next year. We have done our best to keep up and are pushing hard to keep up with people who are still learning. But they all are picking up the pace.
So we are looking to get close to 200WHP. I was told a B18C Type r with intake manifold, TB and full exhaust will get us very close to 200WHP. I am guessing we will be over $3000 to build the B17A1 and get it tuned. while the B18C 98+ spec swap will cost us about $4500, and it will come with trans, axles, dist, alt, harness and ECU. giving us some spares.

We are basicly the only Honda running around here now and the ex Honda guys say a Type R motor isn't worth it nor is a vtec motor. I do not share this point of view. So I don't have any track guys who have run a type r motor to talk to about how it works. So is it worth it or should we be looking at another motor or build what we have?

DWP_Racing

My vote is that the b18c type r is worth it! Depending on the vehicle base you're starting with it is a top notch b series motor. The best in my eyes!!! The integra type r was built for road course so I assume the engine was keyed in to its drive train engineering. Some may say the type r with the motor is what made it a good road platform but if you take a Porsche motor and dump it in a lightweight shell I'm sure you would get great results. Now as for an intake manifold TB and full exhaust close to 200whp there is a possibility with a good tune but I really haven't seen that basic of a build list to tell you for sure... Wither its completely done with full head work and higher comp pistons or just arc intake and header which isn't close to 200whp. Motor mounts always help. Good luck and hopefully this gives you some ideas of where to proceed next. +1 b18c spec r!!!!!!

10cjennings

iTrader: (1)

Completely depends on what you are allowed to do within the class and what (if any) the penalties are for doing so.

SlowB16

I was thinking about an itr motor buy decided with an h2b setup and couldn't be happier. It was spendy up front but replacement h22 motors are about $1k which is a heck of a lot less than an itr motor. Due to the lower cost of a new motor if and when y current motor blows was appealing to me. Not sure if that's an option for you but if it is I'd look into it.

joel n

The class we run is very open. Cage can not incorparate the rear suspention or pass throu the firewall, and we need to run on DOT tires. NT01/R888/V710/r6 and so on. I just read that the intake bolt pattern is different on the type r from the rest. True?

VTECIntegra9

If you have the money why not do a k-swap? The type-arr trans with a 4.7 or 4.9 would make a big difference compared to your B17 along with the added power. I don't see that "mod list" making that much power at the wheels... I would think more of a complete package would need to be put together as mentioned by Kyle above.

Pics of the car or race series? Curious to see the cars you're competing against.

jelcivic

^^I agree ^^ In TTB (NASA) a k-series civic was 1st in class beating a E46 M3 along with several other higher hp cars at the end of the season. If your class allows a k swap go for it. If I were you I would look into the k24a2 with the rsx-s/ep3 trans depending on if you want a 5-6 spd.

The final drive swap is an awesome way to gain torque from just gearing rather than cams/hc pistons/etc. if you decide on staying with the b-series.

Xian

Yeah, from what I've seen in the STL cars, I'd be pretty surprised if you could pull 200whp out of an ITR engine with bolt-ons. If you're adding cams/headwork then maybe but it'll still be a stretch.

A K20 will easily surpass your HP goals... I know a couple folks with unopened examples who are making ~220whp with bolt-ons and ECU.

The ITR and B16 share the same intake manifold bolt pattern. Alternately, there are plenty of companies that make high flow intake manifolds for the other B-series engines. If you're not constrained by rules regarding head prep and mix/match head/blocks, I've got to think that you can either get the same power out of a cheaper package by assembling it yourself OR more power out of an equally expensive package. i.e. B16 head, B18 block, aftermarket manifold/cams, etc, etc.

DWP_Racing

The itr head is a b16 head...same cast! Differences are dual valve springs different retainers lighter valves and degree of valve job the best OEM b series camshafts. Slight factory port job nothing fancy. Yes a k swap is going to give you better numbers BUT the price differences are thousands in difference. The swap costs more with kpro tune and that's an OEM motor stock! Same price you could make a killer lsvtec with longer stroke as the type r and utilize a type r or gsr or b16 head and install complete valvetrain cams intake header and piston upgrades. You'll make 200whp!

10cjennings

iTrader: (1)

Lol, what can you do with the drivetrain? And what exactly is your budget?

You haven't mentioned restrictions there so my vote goes for 1000 hp 67mm 2.6l k series, that will definetly do the trick.

joel n

FD is already a 4.9 with a LSD. Its perfect for the power we have. End of the back stright is almost 8300RPM in the draft. Plus we never have to shift mid-corner. But if we make more power I would say we should drop to the 4.7FD.

The K-series is a great set-up but comes with a cost. We can grab a B-series trans, axles and well basicly everything else cheaper and faster. We want to stay with the B-series mainly for conveinuos, but a how swap will cost us to much. plus we wind up with no spares again.

There really are no motor rules. If we can fit it in were good. But I want to keep it under 2.0L and stay in a B-series. There has been talk of class changes as more people are starting to run GT-3. Have a under and over class system for displacement or a min weight bassed of displacement. there not really sure what there plan is and when it may be used but they have keep me in the loop as what they are thinking to keep it fare.

The motor we have right now is the B17A1. Skunk2 Alpha header, trush muffler and dump pipe. Areomotive adjustable FPR and a basic CAI. I was told the B17A1 is basicly a B16 that came in the Del Sol. (we have the VTEC model) The timing belt is the same and its been running on the P30 B16 ecu. Both a USDM and now a JDM ECU. So if the Type R motor is the same as a B16 then we are safe for switching parts if we put a intake manifold on mainly.

As far as power goes, They claim a 98+ type R has 200 CHP. that to the wheels should be close to 175. Ive seen them as high as 182 with stock intake and manifold. So with a better intake and TB could i guess we would be close to 190WHP?

Do you think we could get more for less if we bought a B18 ls integra swap. Still get the spares but save a good chunk of money. Use the B17 head and build a LS/VTEC? Buy doing this we would still need to buy a new FD and we would still be using a LS 2nd gear. Super long gear. Thats why i keep looking at the type R swap. It comes with the 4.7FD proper 2nd gear and a good power gain over the B17. along with lots of spare. I found prices last night of $4150 plus taxes and $150 shipping. Were going to hold off till late march as the first race is may. Try and find a local person selling one cheaper. Something i can freashin up and trust. Getting new Koni race shocks right now and doing a little cage work.

joel n

There isnt any. lol. only class rules are must be a modified IT* car and the cage can not pass the firewall or incorperate the rear suspention. And we must run DOT tires. No other ruling listed. basicly the bigger you wallet the farther upfront youll be running. lol

Xian

I know about this >< much about LS/VTEC... but apparently it's harder than it appears to build one that will hold together in race conditions and if revved high. To do it right takes aftermarket rods, IIRC. Then you'd still need an aftermarket valvetrain.

10cjennings

iTrader: (1)

Ok, don't chase a dyno number. Bolt on b18c's can make around 200 but that varies a lot depending on the dyno. And peak hp really doesn't mean much.

I definety wouldn't go with a type r motor if you are allowed to build it. Those motors are expensive because of their increasing rarity, and "type r ness" not their power output.

For the price of that longblock you could be well on your way to a k swap, built B or H2b.

DWP_Racing

Built b is the way to go if you have money on the mind! Piece it together with good parts and you'll save in the long run over k swap that gets you close to 200whp. Another thing... The type r puts out the most power stock b series!

10cjennings

iTrader: (1)

^id take a serious look at h2b. Awesome power per dollar and long term, very affordable to keep racing.

Xian

Good point about the H2B... also, with B17's being pretty rare, you may be able to get decent $$ by selling it.

10cjennings

iTrader: (1)

Yeah somebody with a GSR wants that b17.

Compare graphs of the h2b vs a basic built b and it's a big difference (torque), probably costs less or about the same initially and then when the motor blows up they don't cost near as much as building another b series.

STN_Pat

I made 212whp and 189wtq (!!!) with a stock, bluetop H23A vtec. Available at every JDM importator for 500-1000$. The power was all below 7000rpm, and 160wtq was achieved from 2500rpm. The surface under the curve is simply ridiculous compared to a B18C on the same dyno.

Coupled with a 4.78 transmission using a H2B set-up, I don't have to tell you how fast the car was at 2200lbs. Can't be compared to a B18C. Even a K24 was less brutal and much, much more expensive.

The only downsides are that you need custom baffles, install a mechanical t-belt tensionner (available with oem parts)...and that's about it. Are they even downsides ? I don't think so.

I personally hate the H engines, but you can't beat cheap, powerfull and apparently as reliable as B series.

Xian

Ug. That ^^^ makes me have bad thoughts about the B16 powered EF in my garage.

joel n

I looked at the H2B swaps before. But i want to keep it under 2L. But how much ground clearance did you lose? from what i read its about 15-20LBS added to the car. Not bad were it make 20FT-LBS more.
A friend just built a LS/VTEC for his CRX. Made 171WHP and is pretty basic. 1.8L ls block, shotpeaned rods. 10.1 forged pistons (old owner was using nitrous) B16 head ported, and i think it has GSR cams. adjustable gears and stock B16 intake manifold and TB. Now for us to do a LS/VTEC we need to buy everything. Around here there isnt much for import performance shops that you can fully trust. I like the idea of the LS/VTEC because of the added torque but for road racing we would need to go full out on it. Iam a mechanic for a VW dealer (they have 3 ITB golfs) so I dont mind building it. Ill just have to sit down and price some stuff up.

Colin

iTrader: (1)

I'm not sure what engine mods you're allowed, but your b17a now vs what you could build it to be (easily) are very different. The b17a has an embarrassingly low compression ratio, so you can get good power gains by upping the CR. I used to have a b17a that I called my "Mini ITR Engine" because it was basically ITR spec but 1.7l (p30 pistons yeilding 11:1, ITR cams, ITR intake manifold and TB - those were the only internal mods). My engine put out a nearly identical dyno graph when compared to my friend's US spec b18c (tuned on the same dyno by the same person, but on different days). It's worth noting I also had a better intake and header than my friend.

Overall the ITR will still make more power assuming the specs are the same due to it having a larger displacement. But depending on your situation, rebuilding the b17a may not be as bad as you might think based on the motor's current power output.

RR98ITR

This is the Road Racing/Autocross & Time Attack forum...so let's cut the BS and be serious. We KNOW that Setup is NOT IMPORTANT, that a fast driver is fast in anything, and that Horsepower is OVERRATED, that Miata's routinely smoke Z06's. We KNOW that when a driver is in the zone like Senna he can completely transcend the presumed limits of his machinery and triumph over any adversary. So how to get into the zone? You must Believe in yourself. And you must avail yourself of every opportunity to sustain your belief. To that end nothing is quite as effective as associating yourself with known talismans of extraordinary power. The Type-R for instance. Forget numbers, of horses, you WILL go faster with the B18C5. So get the B18C5. And look at yourself in the mirror and say "Who's the baddest Monster Trucker of them all? That's Right! I AM!"

Scott, who just wondered...what happens when two such Monster Truckers should encounter each other in competition? Hmmmmm...a paradox of some sort...probably have to throw out the "results" or bench race them into oblivion...

PS - it is probable that 90% of the benefit can be had by painting your cam cover in red crinkle.

Xian

And that's ^^^ why Honda made Hype aaarrrRgghhh's in limited quantity. Having two of them racing against each other is like trying to divide by zero...

10cjennings

iTrader: (1)

Want to keep it under 2.0l, why?

H2b ground clearence wouldn't be a concern.

The added weight is minimal and way more then made up for.