Stinkycheezmonky

Saw that these were just posted, figured a few of you in the "building" stages might be interested:
http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Honda-Challenge.pdf

Fascinating new developments in H2...

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

WOW... any thoughts....
IDK about some of the engine packages.
There seems to be some hp numbers that are going to be higher than others.
But it could depend on the source of the engine.

Stinkycheezmonky

Did you see the part about max hp numbers for each LPV H2 motor? I can understand the theory behind it (to limit spending on building motors), but...I dunno, takes something away from it too and removes part of the fun of developing a "winning" car (which is definitely part of the appeal for a number of racers). It'll be interesting seeing where everything goes, I hope its in a positive direction. Unfortunately, I know a lot of old schoolers who aren't happy about the changes.

I like the Accord K24 and S2000 options now.

JamesL

Maximum horsepower limit....wtf?

vbspec

glad i moved to H1!!! my gsr with a conservative tune was 182 hp and they are using TraqMate for the on track testing

Egezzy

iTrader: (2)

i thought i would see more h2 weight changes..i guess the hp limit kind of took care of that nationally.

prkiller

It's amazing to me how many people are against equal racing! I for one show up to the track to have a good battle with someone. What's the fun if everyone is spending all their resources looking for that "extra" HP?

Tune your car to make the HP it should and show up to run! Everyone is equal and the racing is fantastic. I don't see a single thing wrong with it.

Stinky, developing the car is fun, but actually driving it and learning to drive is the really fun part in my opinion. If someone just wants to tinker with tuning and making as much HP as they can, there are plenty of other classes that encourage that sort of thing.

Lo-Buck EF

....sigh.....

Johnny Mac

That's the fun of building a race car in the first place. Read the rules and determine as best you can what will be the winning combination of motor, chassis, and weight and build it. Of course, peak hp numbers are only a small part of the success of the engine package. A better indication of competitiveness is the under-the-curve torque values of where the engine will operate at say 90% of the time. If you have data acquisition and are logging RPM, you can do a histogram of the engine RPM for lap of a given track. This will tell you how much you are in a set range of RPM values. For example, you might see that you spent 5% of the time in a range of 5000 to 5050 RPM, 7% between 5050 and 5100, ect. You can then use this information to compare with your engine's power curve that you determined when you dynoed it. At this point, you've already built your car and now its time to modify it to be more competitive. Or maybe, you need to run a different final drive work the engine more in its torque sweet spot. The possibilities are endless.


With that said, it is amazing how many people will choose to build an uncompetitive engine/chassis package and when they are off the pace, try to get the rules changed in their favor. This is why we have rules.

Stinkycheezmonky

I actually feel the same way, but have friends (racers in HC) that do not. Part of the appeal of HC to them specifically was that it WAS one of those classes where you would tinker and tune. HC has never been a "spec" class and they seem to feel it is moving in that direction, albeit with a few "spec" options.

To Johnny's comment about area under the curve, that's another thing I considered. I know some TT and PT class cars that are building the car above the limit for power, then detuning to maximize area under the curve while remaining legal. I don't know enough about tuning to know if such methods will be useful under the HC ruleset, but I'd imagine it would be.

Far as I can tell, some people like to be trend-setters. I am not one, so I don't completely understand the mentality. Maybe it gives them some kind of satisfaction?

prkiller

HC is far from a "spec" class, but I understand what you are saying. I guess that's just a difference of basic opinion on what HC should be. Close, fun racing wins for me over the rest.
Lets be clear though, people will still tinker and tune for HP, but the advantages will be significantly diminished now, so hopefully, the majority of people get back to racing on track instead of on the dyno!

Stinkycheezmonky

I know the rules did specify "National Race" for the max hp thing, what was the motivation to limit it to that (rather than just all-inclusively)?

Wai

It's interesting to see the introduction of the S2000 into H2.

I, personally, like the idea of HP cap. When I was still active in HC, I remember that it was briefly discussed in the private forum. Someone brought that up (borrowed the idea from GTS class), but realized that we had difficulties to enforce or govern at the time.

prkiller

So people would stop saying "I can't go to Nationals because I don't have enough money to build a new engine". Now, it shouldn't be really tough to have a competitive engine in your car for the big show and that was the idea!

Limiting power for every event just isn't practical right now and the emphasis for most to make max HP is on the Champs event.

Tyson

Example(s): 1) A JDM SOHC ZC may not use pistons from a JDM DOHC ZC engine

Egezzy

iTrader: (2)

next on jerry..the honda challenge series.

vbspec

TY to all the RC
BUT
I'm wondering why these hp max's were not put into H3. Starting with H3 it will be a more limited prep class, then H2 allows for mote tinkering and then H1 is open like it is.

This allows for a racer to chose his/her level of involvement. My problem is that these rules changes seem to be making decisions "for" racers and not allowing the participants chose. IMO its not for the RC to make things competative its the racers themselves. The more the rules change the more racers will stay away.
I know its a thankless job but i feel there are ways to get the racers moreinvolved in the decisions that seem to keep being made every year. IMOE the pvt nasaform, facebook and other means would make this totally possible.

Sorry to rant. And I have very happy with my decision to move to H1 see my ECHC friends soon

Stinkycheezmonky

Mike, I have no idea but I'd guess with the lower number of cars they're trying to keep class numbers up. Adding classes (H3 is totally dead right now) may take those numbers down.

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for explaining that Johnny.. It makes sense to a degree.... its how you build it and drive it.
Finding innovative ways to make it better.

I just dont see how there can be parity in a class that has engines with substantially more HP than others.
IDK maybe i need to have a discussion with a HC director to understand it better.
Im new to HC and the classing still.


None the less the rules are the rules

prkiller

Weight!

That's why each engine has a different weight. Because each is expected to make a different HP number.

realride

It always amazes me that the guys who complain about the rules are the slow guys. any idea why oh yes I know they need more HP
Benny
that should start a good fight LOL

slammed_93_hatch

ever going to send me that data slow boy???

Johnny Mac

How many racers do you know that would ever admit that the speed difference between themselves and the fast guys is due to inadequacies in their driving? Some do, but most usually think that either the other cars have more power or someone's cheating. And how does one really know how their driving talent stacks up against the other drivers in their class anyway? Sure, you could put a top shoe in each car and let them determine the differences using comparative lap times. And maybe this would work to a degree, but some dificient drivers will always have an excuse. And these same drivers probably wouldn't let a better driver drive their car anyways.

I say, look at the rules and build a competitive car and go compete. On one hand, we have people who are skilled mechanics or methodical engineers and on the other we have fast drivers. And sometimes - but only rarely - you have someone who understands how to make power, how to setup up the car, and who could drive the wheels off of it. This type of person will always do well or the rules will be changed so that his hard-fought engineering gains will be lost to a rule change. And this usually has the desired effect by slowing him down.

S.Rothschild

Benny makes me laugh

240punk

I'm interested in starting to race. Where do I start? Should I get some autocrossing seat time first? I've only been into drag racing and I'm so over that. Is h5 competitive?