backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

Hey all, so I have a 93 jdm h22 motor but it has crank and cam gears from an h23. I found this out the hard way after purchasing a water pump and timing belt.

The engine block is marked H22A. The head, cast in 1993 with P13 marking. Definetely has VTEC. The chassis is a 1996 which should be OBDII but it has an OBDI ecu. Is it possible that I have a custom H23VTEC motor? A few times when replacing parts previously, I had fitment issues then tried the h23 part and it worked. I figured the shops got it wrong. So I guess my question is, is there any way to know for sure what exactly is in the block? Is it possible to have an h22 block stuffed with h23 crank, rod, pistons? Or any educated guesses to what is going on here? I doubt someone went to the trouble of replacing the gears with h23 parts for no reason. I'd like to find out exactly what I have.

Also, the car does have an auto tensioner. I was going to switch to manual tensioner but got an auto real cheap so I'll hold off on that awhile..but does anybody know why the h22 and h23 belts differ in length? Sure its 155 teeth vs 117, but the h23 is 47-5/8 and the h22 is 48-1/4. I put an h23 belt on my engine and it was so tight that I'm sure it wouldn't fit with the larger manual tensioner pulley.

Thank you in advance for any thoughts.

minilogoguy18

The cam gears are definitely wrong, the engine probably runs terribly or lacks power. Get the right gears, even if the stroke has changed by using H23 internals you shouldn't be using any gears from that engine.

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

The car runs great actually. I've had it for 5 years, granted, itsnot my DD anymore but no issues not even with smogging. It pulls hard and having had a VTEC lude previously, the car feels the same

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

I feel like intuitively I can see what you mean by having less teeth on the gears/belt would disrupt things but at the same time a revolution is a revolution right? And why would I have different gears to begin with? Makes no sense. Any guesses?

minilogoguy18

Whoever owned the car before had no idea what they were doing.

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

What is the real difference with h23 timing and can gears? Besides the obvious number of teeth? I mean how would that affect the engine and why would someone do that?

I ask because my lude has run great

minilogoguy18

Never compared the 2 to see if the diameter and tooth count are the same, just know that the part numbers are different.

gmcuajo1

Sounds like the previous owner wanted to keep the adjustable cam gears and found h23 gear set, so swap them.

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

That makes good sense actually. And makes me feel better thinking about it. Lol.

I'm still wondering why the belts are diff lengths. Gotta be the size of the gears being smaller since the block and heads are same size on both engines

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

Bump

Ended up buying a KS manual tensioner and KS walk stopper. New Gates belt hasn't been on a week and is already shredding the direction facing the timing covers. Again. Granted, the last "new" belt had some threads come loose, but the same thing happened there too.

So I replaced the tensioner. Water pump. Used walk stopper. Tensioner pulley/bracket. Inspected every bolt and they are all straight.

Ideas? I had to get the auto tensioner out because when installed, it made the belt whine and shredded the first belt. KS manual tensioner on lowest setting and the belt still whined like it was too tight and is shredding.

I feel like this all centers around the belt being too tight. But Its the same belt as the old one that worked fine. 127 tooth, 47-5/8". The vtec belt is 155 tooth, 48-1/4". That near half inch would solve my problems I'd imagine. Why are the belts different length does anyone know? Cuz I've got an h22 with h23 gears. I don't know why. It was bought that way.

Running out of ideas. I will literally pay whoever helps me solve this. I'm on the verge of doing my 3rd timing belt on this inside 3 weeks. It's gettin old.

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

Ps- I never touched the cam gears so I know they and the caps are fine since the old belt was fine.

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

Update: I did a little late night poking around and through the open upper timing cover I can see the belt grooves are intact but fraying because the belt itself has been shaved down by 1/4".

I'm kinda at the point where maybe trying out the h23 manual tensioner might be a direction to go. I've replaced everything but something is still off. Though I worry that if its a pain to get on with a half inch longer h22 belt, how would I get it on with a shorter h23 belt? Anybody know Is the difference in length due to smaller h23 gears? This belt is giving me nightmares. It's 3am and I'm stressed again. Sigh.

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

I think I have a solution. I ordered the h23 kit from importrp today, since I couldn't find a deal on any h22 gears (and I'd have to replace water pump). My thinking is that if I have all h23 gears, then using an H23 tensioner shouldn't make the belt too tight, which I believe to be the issue I'm facing with all the walking. And if it is a belt bolt somewhere on the H22 tensioner assembly, even though I've replaced them all, it'll square that up too. Even the KS tensioner on the lowest setting is too tight.. so why not try a pulley that is only 7mm in diameter larger than the h22 tensioner pulley? I know once the h22 tensioner, be it KS or auto, is in there, the stretching of the belt is more than the h23 will stretch. So this should solve this horrible problem once and for all.

fastludeh22

iTrader: (1)

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I don't think your solution is going to work. From my understanding the ks tuner is smaller than the stock h23 tensioner. The ks was made cause of how tight the h22 belt is with the h23 tensioner.

With redoing it so many times and the money spent on belts, ks tensioner, h23 tensioner, time etc a new water pump would have been the least of my worry. Which btw I always change a water pump when it's time for a timing belt.

My suggestion is to swap everything to the h22 stuff, do it right and walk away.

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

This is precisely what I ended up doing. Swapped it all to H22 gears from a buddy who was parting his H22 block, and I was able to use my H23 manual kit that I'd bought too. So it was a win-win. I think the KS manual was also made so people using thick head gaskets could still run timing belts without them being too tight.

Long story short, I made it work with the H23 gears just fine as it had been prior to the timing belt replacement. All I had to do was actually leave it with NO tensioner on there, after realizing the tensioner that was on there when I took it apart literally had no piston in it, no bottom screw, no oil. It was applying ZERO tension. After realizing my walking issues were because the shorter H23 belt was too tight with an auto tensioner on there, and didn't even fit with an H23 manual kit, I was content to leave it the way it had run just fine for the last 5 years until my buddy came along with the H22 gears.

But I also ran into a weird shredding issue, which is why I had to keep replacing belts. The belts were walking but the actual shredding was... Well turns out a product I bought and used initially was the culprit of the shredding. I gave the company my word I wouldn't reveal their name/product while they look at the issue because they really took care of me I mean they paid for everything, new belts, random parts, everything. And they are a small company who said they'd contact those who had purchased said product so I'm putting some faith in them. Hopefully nobody else has belts shredding from the backside and ribs cracking.

Anyways, all in all, for anyone who wonders or ever runs into this same issue- on an H22 block w/ H23 sprockets, timing gear, water pump the H23 belt will work. You'll just need a manual KS tensioner on the most compact setting and you'll be able to apply a little tension and it'll be fine. I was wrong when I said the KS tensioner on most compact setting made the belt too tight. That was the result of another part adding tension from another area and shredding the belt as well.

In other words, the deck height of the H22 and H23 are actually different, albeit very close, heights. The H22 and H23 sprockets are the same size within a millimeter or two. Same with crank gears.