rags00prelude22

I have been auto crossing and causing mischief for years, but I am ready to set my 97 lude up for the track. I am running a forced induced Prelude churning around 325 whp. I am in the finishing stages of rebuilding the motor 9:1 Mahle piston/eagle rods, 3 angle valve job on the head, and MFactory LSD. I am running on a tight budget, so I am looking for the best bang for your buck full coilover setup. I understand know one makes a camber adjustment due to the strut design - at least that's what every manufacturer has told me. The best I have found so far is the Ksport RR series (stronger valving and components) and custom spring rates.

I like a neutral to slight oversteer setup.
What manufacturer should I choose?
What is the best spring rate/sway bar thickness setup?

My thoughts: F 450/R 450 spring rates - suspension techniques F 25mm/R 26mm (I already have the front and a smaller rear (22mm I think?)

I appreciate your help - I have searched the archives and have not seen any definitive input on this. - thanks

rags00prelude22

I like a neutral to slight oversteer setup.
What manufacturer should I choose?
What is the best spring rate/sway bar thickness setup?

My thoughts: F 450/R 450 spring rates - suspension techniques F 25mm/R 26mm (I already have the front and a smaller rear (22mm I think?)

I appreciate your help - I have searched the archives and have not seen any definitive input on this. - thanks
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A Blue Lude

If you want an "ultimate track setup" go look at what the guys who run Preludes in Honda challenge use. Some of those setups can be sort of affordable.

Certainly there are many options but that's a good a starting point as any.

rags00prelude22

Thanks bud - you forced me to look in the right direction

For everyone looking at suspension check this website out for reference

http://www.mckinneyraceworks.com/cat...=29#SpringRate

It is under the tech section

117

What's your budget? I run Koni 2812LB shocks with Hypercoil springs, Tanabe front sway bar, and a custom 1.25" rear sway bar. I like to think the suspension works very well on my car, now that I've been through a few iterations to get things right. Next on the list are some linear pots so I can see exactly what the suspension is doing. I currently run 750 front springs with 950 rear springs. I'm thinking about trying a staggered setup next with 950 all the way around, but the problem is that I can't rotate tires with a staggered setup, so I'm not sure if that'll be a cost effective setup. It's fast from what I've been told, but your tire costs go up since you can't rotate.

The best bang for the buck, IMO, would be to find used Koni yellow shocks and have them revalved to SPSS3 specs. Then pick up Koni threaded sleeves and lower spring perches. You'll need to fab some upper spring isolators (or buy some from me!), but other than that, nothing custom needs to be done. You can have the shocks shorted and converted to double adjustable, but IMO, it's not really necessary (although shortening the front is likely a good idea). If you don't want all the droop that the OTS Konis have, just have them add some droop stops when the shocks are being rebuilt.

IMO, I'd stay away from most, if not all, of the JDM stuff.

Another cost effective solution would be the Koni 3011 series. I ran those for a little over a year before changing to 2812s.

If cost is no object, look at Moton, JRZ, Penske, Koni 2822, et al.

BTW, Preludes do not have struts. It's a slightly modified double wishbone type setup. The angle of the shock on the car does not affect caster or camber at all.

If you're going to use an OTS aftermarket rear sway bar, I'd use an OEM front sway bar. Perhaps start with 450 front and rear, but you'll likely want to go a tad stiffer. If you can handle it on the street, I'd try a 550/650 setup first.

Keep in mind that a setup that tends towards oversteer can be dangerous on the street if you drive it hard. If you keep the car well within the limits, it's no big deal (i.e. don't go driving like an idiot on the street. :p ).

rags00prelude22

That's the kind of feedback I am looking for - great stuff. And my bad - they are shocks.

This Koni setup you are suggesting - is this an adjustable perch w/ spring package - basically the springs are not pre-loaded? I was told to stay away from a non pre-loaded setup like Koni shocks and ground control. It sounds like you have some experience, what has your experience taught you?

And for spring rates/sway bars. I was thinking of going with a more neutral spring setup 450/450 and try and get the rear rotation with a thicker rear sway. Do you think that would work? Or do you think a more staggard setup is necessary? My car is driven to work daily, so I am not sure if 550/650 is wise, but I bet it is great on the track.

Your thoughts....

117

Who told you to stay away from a non-preloaded setup? Did they explain why the springs need to be preloaded? I'd really like to hear the explanation, as I don't understand why preload is even a factor. Some people run without helpers, but I prefer to run with helper springs to keep the springs in contact with the upper and lower perches when the car is jacked up. Now, if you preload the springs beyond the loading at the car's static ride height, I could certainly see that affecting handling, but we don't run zero-droop setups on these cars.

If you're going to run equal front and rear spring rates, ditch the idea of an aftermarket front bar. Go with a Progress rear sway bar (since it's the largest OD you'll find OTS), and an OEM front bar.

Again, what is your budget? $2k, $3k, $4k?

rags00prelude22

Hahaha...I like how you started with $2k. I was thinking closer to $1k, so I guess that sums that up. Considering your most economical route described with the 3011 series Koni's. What parts would be needed with that setup or possibly a more economical setup?

And yes, I definitely don't want the springs free floating. This person that discouraged having a pre-loaded spring coil over set felt that while hitting the curb or lifting an inside rear wheel or even hitting bumps in the road that handling could be compromised. But you say that can be solved with some type of device.

I am a moron and somehow misplaced the stock sway bars moving from St. Louis to Va Beach about 4 years ago. So I a stuck with my slightly larger suspension techniques sway. But I will get that larger rear sway you suggested. So should I go with a 450/500 spring rate?

teamhonda_johnb

Sorry to thread jack but where do you get helper springs at? i need some for my em2!

117

^^^^ Anyone that sells race springs should be able to get you helpers from H&R, Eibach, or Hypercoil. The Hypercoil helpers are way too soft, IMO.

You won't be able to touch 3011s for $1k. I'm not sure what the retail price on them is now, but I'd expect about $500 per shock, plus the cost of the threaded sleeves, perches, springs, etc.

As I said before:
You can have Koni install droop stops on the shocks when they're rebuilt so there is not so much droop, but if you add enough droop stops to keep the main springs in contact with the upper and lower spring perches, you won't have enough droop. Trust me. Ask me how I know... Doing so leads to some very odd suspension issues since the shocks will top out while on track causing all kinds of knocking and handling woes (especially on the rear).

Lifting an inside rear tire will not cause the spring to come unseated from the perches unless you don't run a rear sway bar. The bar keeps the inside tire from dropping far enough for that to happen. Still, I'd run helper springs. That's what I do; however a guy I race with, that is much faster than I am, runs similar spring rates without helpers. His springs completely lose contact with the upper perches at full droop. It doesn't affect the performance of the car, it just makes noise when you let the car down from being jacked up.

If I were you, I'd wait until you have about $1,500 to spend, give or take. If you get used shocks cheap enough, you might be able to squeeze in under $1k, but not likely. I'm thinking more along the lines of $1,200 or so. If you want a set of upper spring isolators from me, let me know. I'm doing a few other sets for other people.

117

Oh, as for your sway bar setup, ditch the front ST bar. Buy a used OEM front sway bar. You'll save weight, and the car will handle better.

Insist on using the ST sway bar if you like, but don't say I didn't warn you. I know you're going to ask, so if you were to try using both ST bars front and rear, I'd say start at like 450 front and 650 rear spring rates, but I bet it won't be enough.

rags00prelude22

I think I am going to go with the Koni yellow shock setup. I guess I need to find out where to acquire all this. Where would I have the shocks revalved to SPSS3 specs? Do you know where I could find the Koni threaded sleeves and spring perches? What would you need to fab the upper spring isolators and how much do you charge? Who makes the best set of helpers?

Can this all be done with a ground control/Koni yellow setup, or are the Koni perches and threaded sleeves a great deal better?

And sorry for all the questions - thanks again for all your help

117

You can use the GC setup, no problem, but I prefer Koni products.

You send the shocks to Koni directly. www.koni-na.com You can also buy the threaded sleeves, perches, and bump stops directly from Koni as well. I'd suggest using the 45mm progressive bump stops. If you want to use 2.5" ID springs, you'll also need to buy their 2.25" to 2.5" adapters, as their threaded sleeves and perches are made for 2.25" ID springs.

If you look on Koni's web site you'll see the rebuild shop form for sending shocks in.

The isolators I make will run about $100 per set, i.e. $25 per isolator. If you want a set, let me know, I'm going to machine them soon.

Too bad you're not in Texas. I'd invite you out to some NASA events.

MLBZ521

iTrader: (6)

If you go to the Sponsor Market Place here on H-T, you'll find multiple sellers/company's that sell Koni and Ground Control Combo Setups for good prices.. I was just looking them up last night myself. And there is one that listed the SPSS3 and Race Shocks along with the Sport Models.

rags00prelude22

I will definitely check out the H-T market place, I should have thought of that - thanks MLBZ521

117 - I am a bit of a newbee when it comes to racing suspension setups. How do the spring isolators work and where do they go? I assume above the spring and shock.

What is the disadvantage of using 2.25 ID springs vs 2.5? And can you add helpers to any standard race spring, or is it a different spring altogether?

117

Last time I checked, Koni only offered the Race series shocks (shortened with SPSS3 valving) in Civic and Integra fittings. I haven't checked in about a year or so, but I didn't think there were plans to offer anything in the Prelude fitment. If that's changed, then that's great news, as the Race series shocks are fairly affordable (right around $1k to $1,200, IIRC).

The isolators are the parts that hold the top of the spring in place. In the GC kit, they use urethane isolators that are held in place with cut OEM dust boots. IMO, it's not an optimal setup. My pieces replace the urethane isolator with aluminum, and you don't have to use the OEM dust boot to hold it in place. Koni doesn't make any isolators, as they assume you'll custom fab the mounts yourself, all they make are the shocks.

I use a 2.25" ID spring, as that what my shocks are made for, but I use a 2.5" ID helper since H&R only sells 2.5" ID helpers. I'd use 2.25" helpers if I were using Eibachs. 2.25" springs are generally lighter, but there is less clearance between the shock and the spring. On my setup, that's fine, as the upper mount pivots with the shock and the suspension moves from full droop to full compression. On the OEM Prelude suspension, this isn't the case. I found that the normal GC sleeves were so large that there was a minimal amount of clearance between the sleeve and the spring. With the suspension design of the Prelude, this caused the spring to bow ever so slightly, but it would bow enough that the spring would rub on the threaded sleeve. Now GC uses what they call the "baby tubes" with Koni shocks, which are threaded sleeves that are a smaller OD. With 2.5" springs there is plenty of clearance to keep any contact from happening. I've never seen them with 2.25" springs on a Prelude, so I can't comment on a 2.25" setup. The Koni threaded sleeve setup is made for 2.25" springs, but I'd see how much clearance there is between the ID of the spring and the threaded sleeve. If it's less than say 1/8", I'd use a 2.5" spring adater and go with a 2.5" ID spring for more clearance.

Performance-wise, there is no difference between a 2.25" ID spring and a 2.5" ID spring.

Also note that those GC upper mounts in the pictures in HT marketplace are for Civics. They don't make anything for the Prelude.

I should add that I like using 2.25" springs since they're usually available in higher rates. IIRC, Hypercoil didn't offer a 1,200 lb/in spring in a 2.5" ID.

I'd be happy to post pictures of my setup with the helpers if you wanted to see what it looks like.

117

Do you have PMs turned off? I wanted to ask you a few questions about your setup.

A Blue Lude

Aw man, that would have been nice. As it is I'm out of a set of dust boots for when I inevitably want something more stock (althouth 8k/6k, Koni Sport is not too bad to drive around on when the car isn't on the track, which is most of the time...).

rags00prelude22

I think we should talk - it may be more productive. I ask too many damn questions. As long as you don't mind. Call me on my cell (636) 675-3737 - my name is Tyler

117

I'm not going to be able to call for awhile. I'm at work. I'll try to give you a call, but generally PMs or email is best for me.

MLBZ521

iTrader: (6)

Ah, oh ok.. I had no idea about that, I just saw them listed, which is unusual, as I rarely see places that offer (Or Advertise) the SPSS3/Race Series.
It is very possible that they are only for Civic/Integras, and they just didn't list that.



Oh and please do not stop the discussion here!
This is very good and helpful info.. Rarely do we get discussions like this.. And with experienced individuals such as you 117. I've been reading it all, and trying to understand it all. Pictures would probably help a lot if you really don't mind.

117

I have to agree. Probably better to keep the discussion here.

I'll see what pictures I have, and perhaps take some this weekend. The weather is really crappy today, though.

rags00prelude22

It is good to hear that so many are being educated like myself with these posts.

Unfortunately, I cannot find any used Koni yellows that I could send to Koni to be re-valved to SPSS3 specs. So I am going to go with new Koni Yellows w/ Ground Control F450/R550 and Progress rear sway 27mm. I am also going with Eibach helpers, 45mm bump stops as well as 117s aluminum isolators.

I think you wanted to know more about my ride to make any final adjustments. Suspension wise everything is stock right now. I am running 5Zigen 17X8 wheels and Falken ST615 235/40/17 tires. I thought about getting an Energy Suspension urethane kit to replace the old stock bushings. I have heard they squeak - who cares I say.

117

**** can the idea of using ES bushings. They don't work well with the 5Gen's suspension design. I've been doing a little work on the car this weekend, I'll see if I can take some pictures.

If you're going to run OTS Konis, don't go over 450 lb/in in the spring rate. You'll find that the fronts are too soft.

117

Before anyone flames me, yes, I installed the ES kit on my car many years ago. Within two track events, I could get 1/2 degree of camber change on the rear end by prying on the lower control arm with a medium sized screwdriver. That next weekend, I changed back to new OEM bushings. Now I run a full spherical bearings setup.