fullerpd

Summary: I have a chance to buy a 5th gen Prelude that is fairly seriously turbo'ed up and has dyno slips for 330 whp. The seller is the original owner. He had the work done by a performance shop about 2004, and has only logged 10k miles on it since. My big sticking point is the question, while you were getting all hooked up, was the block sleeved?

He does not know the answer, but is currently digging through receipts, etc to see what he can find. My question is, in short, can we figure this out without pulling the engine apart and inspecting internals?

Many Prelude junkies will understand why I ask this question, so I explain for other readers: The H22A is known to have a "soft" block. If you want to turbo or supercharge it and never push the boost pressure past 8-10 psi, you will be OK with the stock engine and internals in the long run (this will most likely not get you much past 250 whp on the Prelude). But if you want more, then you have to upgrade internals -- forged pistons and rods, and sleeve the block. Other upgrades are necessary too, but not pertinent to this discussion. If you boost much past 10psi (some say even past 8psi) without these upgrades, you might hold it together for awhile, but eventually that boost is going to eat your engine up, and it will fail catastrophically and spectacularly.

So that's why the question. Sure, he's got dyno slips, sure, it was done by a performance shop. But I want to know. Sleeved or not sleeved? I think the answer is yes, and here's why:

-- he's got JE forged pistons (9.5-1 compression) and Crower rods. My understanding is that, forgetting high boost, those forged pistons will chew up the soft cylinder walls of the H22, and not take long doing it.
--the upgrades include some not-especially-slipshod components - F-Max turbo kit, EMS from AEM, Apexi AVC-R boost controller, etc. The boost controller goes up to 14+ psi, and that level is where he hit 330 whp on the dyno. These suggest a competent performance shop.

A performance shop doing it right, it's hard to imagine them doing all this work (which I estimate in the $6k-10k price tag), and failing to sleeve the block, and additionally failing to warn the guy that he had enough power to easily blow his engine.

So:
--can we conclude (to a reasonable extent) from the available evidence that the block is sleeved?
--failing that, is there any quick and easy way to tell physically, without taking the engine apart?
-- am I totally wrong in claiming that operating with forged pistons but no sleeved block with boost at 14psi has a bad future?

What say ye, Honda-Tech smarties?

Apex1972

i think if someone spent the money it typically costs to sleeve a block, they would remember it. also a copy of the receipt would be in my pile of paperwork if it was my build. I would be wary of someone who cant give a definate answer.

Prudz_lude

iTrader: (1)

Ugh... when will the myth of h22's having "soft blocks" "weak sleeves" etc end? H22's have some of the strongest sleeves compared to most motors on the market. FRM, look it up, read what it does. The rings are what are weak, not the sleeves. As long as the tune is good, the motor isn't knocking, the air fuel ratio's are clean and the car is boosting and running normally I would not be worried at all. 300whp is safe and fine in an h22 as long as everything is in working order and done properly.

fullerpd

Prudz_lude -- I know all about the FRM lining on the H-series motors. Whether or not we use the word "soft", most people think forged aluminum pistons mix very badly with FRM-lined cylinder walls. So we are past the point where the native FRM-vs-iron sleeve question is in play.

So I am still up against the same problem. The seller has forged aluminum pistons, so that block better be sleeved. The guy has not (so far) determined that to my satisfaction.

Apex1972 - point well made. I don't have a history with the seller, can't vouch for his character. I would say in his defense that the work was all done as a package

godslayer

Seriously? Try X-ray glasses.

Even a reciept proves nothing. The only way to know anything for sure, without just taking someone at their word or guessing, is to open it up and see for yourself.

97ludedude

There is really no way to tell without pulling the head. If the shop is still in business maybe try them?

1funryd

The only way is to pull the head off and check the sleeves visibly, other than that, nothing...

megomaniac

you should be able to tell, if you take off the oil pan.
I can see my darton's through the water pump cavity.

AngryAgent

Kind of hard to believe this guy doesn't know if they sleeved his block or not. I would bet against it if he's acting like he doesn't know.

Again I agree with the others that have said, remove the head and see for yourself.

fullerpd

All good things to think about. I was not looking for proof so much as a high likelihood. A healthy skepticism is indicated.

Megomaniac - that is very interesting, that you can get a look up from the bottom through the oil pan. it's easy enough to see sleeves from the top. I am not sure what sleeves would look like from the bottom.

As it happens, the seller's gonna allow me to contact the performance shop who did it to give me the breakdown - I know who they are, and they're considered reputable around these parts. And call me a sucker perhaps, but if a place like this one tells me they've got invoices that show Darton or GE sleeves were installed, I think I can take their word for it.

218luder

something is just not right about this seller. anyone who spends the kind of money will know what went in and what came out. Does the seller seem pretty knowledgable? Sounds like he is one of those guys who want a fast car and handed a shop a load of money and said " here i want a turbo and i want it fast" or the fast n furious quote " i need nos" lol. How does the car itself perform? its one thing to have a built car but its another thing to maintain it.

snobordboy

That is the exact problem, some people do just hand a wad of cash over, and expect the shop to take care of everything. I met a guy local to me, spent like 100K on mods for his lude, yet had no clue what was what, other than the Gt35 turbo. I had to go help him out after he played with his timing belt and almost killed the engine. Found that the shop had done shady stuff like electrical tape over blown lower ball joints, hooked up power for gauges but not the senders, dumb crap, and charged him out the azz for it.

Luckily for this guy, he did have a sleeved motor with forged pistons etc, and a safe tune, although not the power I would expect from the setup.

fullerpd

In my estimation, the seller in question doesn't know much about tuner specifics. I think he probably handed the performance shop a blank check and said "make me a go-fast car". Or, possibly the shop told him for XXX amount of cash, I can get you at this level, or at YYY amount I can get you at this other level.

Call me odd, but I don't want to name the performance shop. Let's just say it's a name in TX but not in the DFW area that has appeared on the H-T forum, the work was done in 2004, and the man in charge is spoken of highly here on the forums. When I heard the shop it was, this has come close to making the buy-it decision for me.

To somebody's credit, the upgrades are good quality brands and models, and a level of detail that F&F idiots wouldn't bother with. What ricer would bother with valve springs, metal brake lines, and some attention paid to heat dissipation - besides IC, I mean. Nothing chrome under the hood, no cute colored spark plug wires, no metal-braided hoses, no go-fast stickers, no big ugly please-notice-me wing, and the original sawblades (which I hate, by the way).

The my-***-in-the-seat test? Pretty f-ing fast car on 14psi. Fastest car I have ever been in. My main concern is that it not blow up on me. My inclination at this point is to go ahead and bite the bullet, buy it, and fairly soon take it up to T1 and have them open it up and tell me how big a dumbass I was.

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