gnxpro24

iTrader: (1)

ACLs site doesnt have F22 or H22a1 listed. Thats what Im getting at. Since a4 uses different rod bearings. Im usng ACL mains so I would like to have matching rod bearings

Sparksman

ACL is going out of business... There trying to sell the company to another manufacture right now according to ACL's own website. So certain ACL bearings arent going to be easy to find because they are liquidating their over head, and not carrying as many variety of bearings.

http://www.aclperformance.com.au/US/sale_of_acl.htm

Clevite is a good brand too, I would run them on my car if I went aftermarket and not oem.

ESP.net

Some more info on H23AV:

Shares same injector part # as Euro R. Does not share with Type S or F20B.

BDYLLIN

I just bought a 98 prelude with the h23a vtec, and I can't seem to scan the car through the obd2 which is a problem for etests, got any help?

Dorkenheimer

H23A torque pattern for the girdle? Is there one?

1991_crxsi

iTrader: (1)

it is the same as the H22, and the torque specs are the same.

Dorkenheimer

Thanks dude! Now knowing that, I just went and bought a manual for the accord/prelude.

Torque process is two parts: 22 ft. lbs., then 54 ft. lbs. for 2.2L engines.

Gave no mention of torque pattern.

The final torque was 58 ft. lbs. for 2.3L engines, but it seems the H23A BT is more closely related to the H22.

1991_crxsi

iTrader: (1)

No problem. I think the pattern is
9 5 1 3 7
10 6 2 4 8, off the top of my head.
I think some Google searching might yield a definite result.
If you go either 54 or 58 ft. lbs. you should be fine.

Dorkenheimer

Yeah I figured the difference in torque wouldn't matter too much.

Next question would be which bolt hole is #1, #2, etc.? Like you said, google. I'll see what I can come up with.

Dorkenheimer

1991crxsi, from your timing gear on out, what's the setup you're using for spacer/pulley/etc? What kind of alt are you using?

1991_crxsi

iTrader: (1)

Check my build thread as it may have some pics on it.
Directly after my timing gear is the harmonic balancer. I has the inside (the side that mounts towards the timing gear) ground down a couple of millimeters. This made the clearance a little better and allowed me to refrain from using a belt keeper. This is because of the taper of the harmonic balancer. As material is removed, the diameter of the surface that butts up against the timing gear is increased. Originally I left the harmonic balancer alone and made a "belt keeper" out of a hardened washer. Either way should work fine. Since the gear drive for the balance shafts has been removed, there is a little space on the crank snout between the harmonic balancer and the crank bolt. The KS spacer's diameter is too large to fit, so I used a spacer from mcmaster. I placed that spacer over the crank snout between the harmonic balancer and the crank bolt. Works great.

For the alternator, I used the ESP bracket and the original CRX alternator. However I have used the H23A alternator and OEM bracket in the EF prior to that. It just takes some more work and the clearance is non existent unless you switch out the alternator pulley and/or beat the frame rail and cut out some of the head light mounting assembly. Even still, the belt is a little off because of the harmonic balancer position. The ESP one worked perfectly. When I ordered it I asked them to adjust the bracket so that It mounted the alternator 1/8 inch closer to the passenger's side to compensate for the milled harmonic balancer.

PreludeRacer023

This thread has been very informative. As you can see I used to be here a lot, my old 93si w/jdmh22 I loved, ran great times. sold it in 04, 10 years later career change school ect. Im now bmw technician, got a 95 shell from a friend at work and ive begun the build. I now have the resources both monetarily and shop . The shell had nothing not even a radiator....I purchased an h23a because I liked it, and it was 1400 cheaper than a jdm h22. Ive basically bought everything, its being mated to an h23 manual tranny, although I did find 2 vtec trannys at a pull it yard, thinking about grabbing them..i have the original harness, found an external coil setup and am running a p28 chipped ecu with iabs. finally got all the engine brackets, adapter plate for iacv ect, doing the install next weekend. In these 36 pages ive read about using the h22 injectors, I got an h22 fuel rail, the h23 banjo is on the wrong side, do you use the injectors because the h23 ones wont fit in the h22 rail? I have the h22 injectors as well....just curious, also got a vtec solenoid w/ pressure sensor, and replaced the drivers side engine bracket.Also scooped up the external coil distributor to fit my harness, and thing to wire to this other than that? using the p28 and not worried about emmisions. Is there anything im missing, just curious. I have an oem 95 Honda prelude manual, so not to worried and I did the jdm h22a swap into my 93 si, also thinking of doing the manual tensioner, hate that stupid auto tensioner, and feedback would be appreciated. thanks

d r i v e n

Have any of you turbocharged the H23A VTEC motor?

1991_crxsi

iTrader: (1)

Andre Hart's Bone Stock on Methanol

Sparksman

No way that engines "bone stock" @ over 550WHP...

My opinion is the H23aV is the best H block out there, especially sleeved. Once sleeved open closed deck doesnt matter, you get the 55mm mains, can add oil squirters if you want, and has a factory stroker bottom end with a factory vtec head as well. Only the week internals are limited to around 300Whp +/-, which is why I call .

1991_crxsi

iTrader: (1)

Nope. Bone stock and Methanol... seems crazy right? FRM sleeves and OEM rods are strong, problem is the ring-lands. With the methanol, engine air temps are lower and detonation is less of an issue. The ring-lands are less stressed and last longer in this environment.

Sparksman

Il give you the ringlands issue, possibly but still doubtful with oem ring gaps... No way he's 550whp on stock rods, thats 3X's the original power output of this engine. Also unless sleeved neither a open or closed deck would last very long at all. Stock rods are weak as ****...

If its as you say it is, its a ticking time bomb

I just need more then a youtube video and someones word when I hear crazy talk to believe.

1991_crxsi

iTrader: (1)

Well if the video and the build specs aren't enough you can contact Andre Hart, maybe you can ask his friend Bluehbcivic, or call him out on youtube. Its not like he is hiding under a rock somewhere, he is accessible. Apparently those rods are a whole lot stronger than you think, 87mm FRM is fine at 500+ WHP, and yea I also thought it was a ticking time bomb... although I think he ran that engine for a while and eventually succumbed to a spun bearing due to over-rev. Even still, if I was in that bay when they were tuning it, I would be hiding behind some bullet proof glass like the Mythbusters.

Sparksman

It doesnt say anything about being stock in the video, or in the comments, or info section of youtube video. Just saying is all.

I dont have to prove anything, Im not the one making the claim. Those who make a a claim have burden of proof, not on those to prove the claim wrong. Cant prove unicorns arnt real, because you cant disprove a negative.

Not saying your wrong, its just if they could hold so much HP out the box why arent more people doing so? Seems we would see a lot more 500whp ludes running around right?

1991_crxsi

iTrader: (1)

The "show more" tab in the video info section states "h23a bonne [sic] stock never opened ". Since there is a video confirming this power out-put made by a reputable h2B guy, tuner/business owner/racer, and a description what combination of parts made that out-put (so that one could presumably replicate it) then the burden lies on you to prove the "I call BS" position. Aside form replicating the build or discrediting Andre, I cannot see that happening.

So why aren't there a lot more 500 WHP ludes out there? Although I cannot see into the mind of anyone there are probably for a lot of very good reasons. Here are just a couple. First they have different engines with longer and weaker rods and a shorter stroke that does not make the power as easily. Second, how many people want to run methanol in their Prelude... or even know how? We can both agree that Andre has a relatively unusual set-up. Methanol is expensive to run, requires much more fuel delivery, and is highly corrosive (although there are a lot of V8 guys that have been running it for decades with success). Thirdly, reliability concerns. This car is one of his track cars and I think he was just trying to see what he could get away with on a stock long block. He has another with forged internals. From what I understand the stock one held-up pretty well considering everything. Fourth, ignorance. For example: There are plenty of people spending extra money to run a regular H22A or even investing in the EuroR for their H2B swaps when the cheaper H23A blue-top always makes more power and TQ in a stock long block configuration. This makes no sense, but people do it a lot. I for one, am glad because it keeps the cost of my engines low. Another thing is that people that run boosted Hondas almost never run a water-meth injection system when it clearly allows your forced induction system to perform better. You keep air temps low, can run more timing, and can increase boost (so long as your turbo is capable) with water-meth which make more power faster in a street car. However, people just slap on different turbos and do other silly things when the real result they are looking for just requires a simple water-meth kit and a tune... but they don't know about it. Fifth, risk and budget. These play hand-in-hand. This is not a well know set-up and people appreciate risk from engaging in activities, and investing money in things that have not been done a thousand times before. I know my wife would kill me if I decided to spend a couple grand just seeing what the most power I can get out of a stock long-block would be when I can just build an engine that I know will never ever blow-up for a $1500 more. Sixth, it is scary. Even though I know that Andre had success with this, I would be scared to going 140-150 MPH in a stock long-block... I simply cannot duck flying pieces of engine parts fast enough... which is what I would be doing in my imagination every time I went down the track. It is a primal visceral response that I think $1500 is well spent to avoid. Even still, it looks like the H23A can make 550 WHP relatively reliably with the proper set-up. Oh yea, a few people have made similar power with stock H22 long blocks, but they did not last long.

Sparksman

Hey so I checked the video out on a my laptop instead of my cell phone, and I do see it now where he does say stock. I did look before but the Youtube app I have blows... When I looked the first time on my phone it wasnt there, which is why my responce was as such. So my apologies and I stand corrected on that. Ive seen too many video's online where people claim there "stock" just to boast. Theres good reason to be skeptical.

I would not call that "reliable" in any sense of the word. Its still a ticking time bomb, and I would never recommend that much HP on stock internals to anyone. I commend the guy for showing it can be done, but just because something can be done doesnt mean it should. on any car other then a legit race car who's engine gets pulled apart and rebuilt once a season, this would be a stupid idea. I knew about the benefits of meth/water but really had no idea it could make that big of a difference. Was he on E85 as well? I know you can get decent gains on that when boosted.

I think we both can agree without the water/meth it would have blown long before the 550whp mark. The main reason people dont like meth/water is because its not cheap itself. Your looking about just under $450 for a kit, then another $270 for the fail-safe encase of pump failure. Water cuts out at high boost and too advanced timing there goes the engine. So $720 in parts, and then a tune which will be approx $500 pending on shop. So just to run meth/water safely your looking at $1,200-$1,500 investment. Not counting the turbo set up at all which we can say was at minimum of $3000, but Im positive it was more. So he has approx about $4,500+ worth of power adders for 550whp with questionable reliability. There is a saying KISS, im sure you know what it means. Instead of having all these sensors, and wires, and gauges for meth. That $12-$15 hundo for meth could have pretty much sleeved and bought forged rods. At that point you could also go wider bore, bigger pistons for more displacement. Then not have to worry about it going boom when abusing it, or at least more confident it wont.

Thats why I see it as not a popular rout, why not just build the engine stout first. Then you can hit 550whp no worries as is, but imagine that turbo set up with meth/water, E85, and a proper built block. You could hit 700-800whp easy.

1991_crxsi

iTrader: (1)

Fair enough. I'm pretty much right with you. He is on just pure methanol with that set-up and I think (but I don't know for sure) he was just trying to see what he could get away with on a stock block. Just like anything there are pros and cons and we can both agree that the big list of cons for a stock block 550WHP H23A generally outweigh the pros for the vast majority of people. Still, I think its pretty awesome what he accomplished, though I personally would not go this route. $1500 more and I can have forged internals, sleeves, more fuel options, and not have to clench my butt cheeks like I was hurling toward my imaginary death every time I make a pass. Maybe that makes me a puss..... eh... I can live with that. lol

ESP.net

About ACL bearings on above post:

Last Turbo H23AV Crx motor I used:
ACL H22A4 NON RACE 98-01 Main Bearings STD duraglides. They were still available at the time. Soon after I think they stopped. This was years ago.
ACL F22/H23A1/H22A1 ACL NON Race Rod bearings STD duraglides 4B1936A-STD
ACL H22A4 98-01 thrusts (always been non race, still are)
Never had an issue... thing is still running... 500 hp sc6176e

I have another build that I just finished recently in my DC2. Same setup as last motor internals wise. Darton MIDs, JEs 9-1=9.5-1, H23A1 Crower Rods, Cometic MLS 60k thick H22A4 98+ Headgasket, TypeS/EuroR/F20BMT cams... old turbo sc6176e now am using a T46266... It is power steering and Water/Methanol injection on pump gas. I will post results/dyno soon. Looking for 500+ whp. I took the time and built this motor my self and spec'd/mic'd/plastiguaged it all out... Only issue I had was the machine shop aligned honed the crank journal was slightly out of wack. Guy was sleepin took a lil too much out. I got lucky, I was able to use ACL Race +1/.025mm Main Bearings... worked perfect got me back down to spec. 1.8k/.0018.


ACL H22A4 Race 98-01 Main Bearings STD. (Aligned hone fubard-went with +1/.025mm not needed for a straight non furbard setup)
ACL F22/H23A1/H22A1 ACL NON Race Rod bearings STD duraglides 4B1936A-STD
ACL H22A4 98-01 thrusts (always been non race, still are)

As far as the post above about 500+ hp with stock internals with Water/Meth injection. Is it plausable? Yes Water and Methanol can turn your pump gas combo into race gas octane. It will also run cooler and be able to run more timming and more boost. The H23AV BT I believe is a more stout piece bottom wise then its older brother the H23A1. I believe the crank is better and rods with rod bolts is a bit better stronger idea. Belows neat fact says to me can be spinned higher rpm with more ease. Don't mean do it. Back to the turbo race car above.... It is not recommended and is just like what is said a bomb to go off to run high boost on stock internals of any H motor. The car above is a race car... another $800 longblock and back in business however could do damage to turbo etc etc... Could you run 10-12 psi on a great tune/tuner very possible 350hp or so. Ringlands are still the weak part of the motor... Is it possible the H23AV BT is slightly more stout then JDM H22A OBD2... possible...


Neat Fact: H23AV might just have the lightest crank between all F/H 34 lbs... it is even lighter then its older bro H23A1/F22A

H22A 50mm crank=43 lbs
H22A4 55mm crank=41 lbs
F20B crank=36 lbs
H23AV crank-34 lbs
H23A1 crank=38 lbs

ESP.net

I did some research today: Euro Honda EPC: If Igniters and Coils are the same as my JDM OBD1 H22 Internal Coil Dizzy in my car.

All Internal Coil:
Euro R
Type S
F20B
H23AV
OBD1 P13 JDM H22A
90-91 Accord Dx US

- All share the same part # coil. On my H23AV Coil reads TC-08A TEC brand.
- All seem to read in the description of Igniter E12-303 Hitachi. Some part #'s different, don't mean much since still a E12-303 part.
- All seem to share the same cap assembly and rotor.
- 90-91 Accord Dx US coil is the same, the igniter was in question. It is also a E12-303. It's Honda part # as well in the aftermarket world of igniters also cross references with the part # of a US 94 Prelude SI Vtec...

- I also have a 99 Civic Ex TD73U dizzy here same igniter part # and coil as the H23AV I have. E12-303 hitachi/igniter. Coil TC-08A

Mikhail

Does that mean its good to run a balance belt? I plan to run one without it but I wanted to be sure it was a good idea.

Cool fact tho nonetheless. Wonder what the K series cranks are like.