msinsky14

I was driving down a hill at about 45 and I began to brake, but my ABS had been inoperable for about one month. As I reached the bottom of the hill, I began to brake when a car pulled out of a driveway. I pressed my brakes all the way to the floor but only my front driver's side brake caught, but it locked up. I swerved and hit a curb pretty hard along with a telephone pole. my skid mark was about 40-50ft long. ABS is more important than you think for the street driven ludes and cars in general. please keep it, thats the time I wish I had it working because it might have saved my car. I'm only 16 and I lost over $6000 dollars. MODERATORS- remove if necessary, but I think this may be important to tell some out there. thanks for reading

dek1mfk

damn dude that sux....**** i guess i better connect my abs back on...lol

Rosko

iTrader: (1)

that sucks that that happened dude but theres a difference between removing it completly and leaving the mafunctiong unit intact.

ILuvMyLude

ouch hate to hear that, gl with gettin a new car and everything.

92blkJDMh22

i have survived 2 winters in chicago without it on my daily drive.....

you dont need it, but drive aware without it......

i actually slid sideways intentionally once to avoide getting tboned in the rain and not having it saved my car........ go figure...

msinsky14

thats different. well it killed my car. I want to get a CRX, that prelude gave me too many problems, my friends dad is currently repairing it at his shop, but its gonna cost me over 3K. my parents are making me do it. I'm really upset about this, I'm always gona keep my ABS on a street driven car

clemsoncb7

You can be more than fine without abs, most prefer it, your problem is you slammed the brakes to the floor, wrong idea. Learn how to brake/drive then you can complain.
Max

ethereal2pt2

last night it snowed pretty good here. the road turned to ice. i sat outside watching cars run into each other because their abs sucked ***. ppl who hit nd run should die. having abs is the smart way to go. when you're in a situation where you're locked up nd no abs it's some scary shiet. abs can save you a tons of money.. not to mention your life.

oh btw. it's like max says. you shouldn't have floored your brakes. abs isn't fool-proof. in given situations it can lock up too. learn how to modulate your braking.


Modified by _BB6 at 7:21 PM 11/28/2006

msinsky14

the brake fell to the floor actually, I didnt try to make it do that, I tried pumping them pretty fast and that didnt work so I just slammed them down to get what little power I could

Silver Surfer

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by maxvtec7500 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You can be more than fine without abs, most prefer it, your problem is you slammed the brakes to the floor, wrong idea. Learn how to brake/drive then you can complain.
Max</TD></TR></TABLE>

yeah you can't really blame abs for not being there.......it's an added feature like traction control......most good drivers prefer not to have either b/c you actually have more control without them, being that you can make the car do things it otherwise couldn't

and if the petal fell to the floor then it was some other malfunction and you still can't blame the lack of abs.......either way you locked up the wheels which is a no no

and if you locked them up at 45mph then i would suggest spending a little extra the next time you buy tires......my lude stops on a dime from 45

ethereal2pt2

perhaps it dropped to the floor due to low pressure? in any case you can't blame the car for what happened. again it's always about preference. what you want from the car. if you're an experienced driver you can get by w/o abs like other ppl say. but if you just want a car for dd nd convenience i see no reason to take away abs.

farhan445

Theres always the handbrake and the engine to stop the car ... or at least slow u down.

but i think that u didnt have any brake fluid if the pedal went in all the way

Charliegrs

you know you might have removed your ABS in an improper manner. was this a super steep hill? this really sounds like a bigger brake problem than just the ABS.

The Birdman

Yeah, it doesn't sound like an ABS problem to me... more like driver error Nah, it sounds like another issue though. You said only the right brake caught and it locked up?? That's a bit confusing. Both brakes should "catch" every time you hit the brakes... ABS just attempts to stop them from locking up. You should drive careful without ABS though. I'll agree on that point.

Edit: Now I see the bit about the pedal going straight to the floor... So yeah, another issue for sure.

CGags13

gay gay gay.. ive been in an accident and my civic did not have abs...i was able to think and not stand on the pedal but i did lock up one wheel because i cranked hard to the right to avoid the illegal immigrants that decided to try to beat me across the street...anyway...its your choice..half the ppl here track their cars and have no use for old *** abs technology...i feel bad for you..but i think youll be able to recover part out your old chassis if its totaled..you'd be surprised what you can get for it

Attaus

If it went to the floor and only one wheel caught its not the ABS.. it's your MC or lack of fluid in the lines. Non-ABS brakes are easy to control once you're aware of the lock-up point.

Keep in mind that muscle cars (4000lb+ tanks with big block power) got by just fine without ABS. You're behind the wheel of a 2900lb Japanese coupe.

Wheels locking up in ice or snow is not crappy ABS. I'm not aware of an ABS system that gives the tires extra traction.. when you need to slow down quickly with very little traction you need to lock up the wheels somewhat. Otherwise if you add so little torque that you don't slip, it'll be waaaay past the need to stop that they will be effective.

The Birdman

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Attaus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If it went to the floor and only one wheel caught its not the ABS.. it's your MC or lack of fluid in the lines. Non-ABS brakes are easy to control once you're aware of the lock-up point.

Keep in mind that muscle cars (4000lb+ tanks with big block power) got by just fine without ABS. You're behind the wheel of a 2900lb Japanese coupe.

Wheels locking up in ice or snow is not crappy ABS. I'm not aware of an ABS system that gives the tires extra traction.. when you need to slow down quickly with very little traction you need to lock up the wheels somewhat. Otherwise if you add so little torque that you don't slip, it'll be waaaay past the need to stop that they will be effective.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree with all but the last part... ABS does a good job of keeping your tire from entering the realm of kinetic friction. Which is bad when you are trying to stop a car, or any rolling object for that matter. At all times when your car is moving or stopped, the part of your tire in contact with the road is moving at 0 mph. It is under static friction with the road. Static friction (not moving) is always greater than kinetic friction (sliding) and therefore is more effective at stopping a moving object, or slowing it down in this case. As an example, if you try and push a somewhat heavy book across a table, it takes a good bit of energy to get it moving, but is easier to keep in motion once it's sliding.*Don't make fun of me for using a classic classroom explanation, school = life right now so i know nothing else *

I do see your point though, there is a point where locking up could be better, but staying locked up is not a good option in any situation. If need be, locking up and then momentarily letting up a little to stop from sliding would be pretty ideal. You could create some good friction and then go back to hard braking to slow down faster... It's really different for every situation though, so I guess writing some of that could have been pointless since other situations would call for more "drastic" measures.

I don't think ABS is necessary, and the fact that the old tank muscle cars didn't have ABS is a perfect testament to that. I think that careful and precise driving can obtain the same result. Knowing that lock-up point is pretty crucial IMO.

Rocket Man

ABS = Anti-lock brake system (Ability to brake and steer). That's all it does. Keeps the brakes from locking up. You should learn how to operate this system in your car.

This is how ABS works

On all 4 corners of your car there is like a gear'd ring ( that thing near the end of the spindle side of the cv axle with squares poking out) as the wheel spins the gear'd ring spins, above this sets a sensor that detects the magnetic field around this gear'd ring. when one gear'd ring stops spinning while the other are spinning this data is relayed back to the ABS computer, which in a prelude is located behind the passanger in the side valence panel below the quarter window. The computer then sends a signal to the mechanical part of the ABS unit which then proceeds to take the neccessary action to unlock that wheel and physically creates a kick up on the petal with fluid force( the force can vary among car manufactors some tap, others are a more harsh action). Thus when you slam on the brakes in a car with a functional ABS it is Impossible to lock any of the wheels up as you can feel the brake petal pusling under your foot to keep the wheels from locking. Many drivers are unaware of this pulsing and think that there is something wrong with there car and this leads to accidents also.

ABS is designed though for people who aren't race car drivers and such and can't brake with proper amounts of force.

ABS it means what? Anti-lock brake system right?

Now take ABS again for someone who slams on the brakes suddenly to stop because they were not paying attention to the road. What happens with out ABS is they would lock the wheels up and travel alot farther than they would if they had slowed down without locking the brakes up. Meaning that is the difference inbetween an accident and not one. We also have one more thing, your driving down the road and you slam on your brakes to avoid and accident, well if your brakes lock up you cant steer around the accident if you cannot stop in time. This leads to another definition of ABS The ABILITY TO BRAKE AND STEER. Since your wheels are not locked up you can manvuer around the object.


As for removal of ABS, Yes you can slow down alot faster without ABS because if the ABS system is kicking in then your wheels are already starting to lock up which means your loosing grip on the road.

You can have big brakes and everything else that you want. Your only going to slow down as fast as your tires let you though. (there are ofcourse many many other factors, weight, heat of the pads/ rotors, blah blah blah) It means nothing on the street. On the street if your tires loose grip on the road your not going to slow down as fast as you were if they had grip. Same for race track too. Many people go through life with out knowing any of this stuff though, only that they can read ABS in the manual. They may of not even known it actually did something for them in something that was only a close call because of ABS, espeically if they slammed on their brakes without it...

That's why car's come with ABS.

Traction control is something completely different.

mgags7

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Silver Surfer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
and if the petal fell to the floor then it was some other malfunction and you still can't blame the lack of abs.......either way you locked up the wheels which is a no no

and if you locked them up at 45mph then i would suggest spending a little extra the next time you buy tires......my lude stops on a dime from 45</TD></TR></TABLE>

lol no kidding....your brake system is fucked up on both counts....this isn't due to lack of abs, this is do to driver error and some other problem in the system....

but if you learn anything from this thread, let it be to not buy a CRX....please don't...they suck....get another prelude or maybe an integra or something....

VTECnKEN

On a normal road surface, the shortest braking distance is achieved by slipping the wheels 10-15% slower than the speed of a normally decelerating wheel.

On a gravel/snow/loose surface, the shortest braking distance is achieved by maintaining grip until at mid-speed, then locking the wheels up to create a ramp of material in front of each tire.

Old/heavy muscle cars had absolutely horrible stopping distances. They didn't have ABS because the earliest form of ABS was only available in trucks and vans in the form of a height-sensing proportioning valve which wouldn't have helped sedans. The technology and cost for ABS just didn't exist back then.

A 4-channel ABS system pulses all brake lines 15 times per second. The human foot can pump the pedal about 4 times in the same time.

During each pulse, the ABS detects the slip rate of each wheel at that moment. It applies anywhere from 10-15% slip rate to maximize braking force. During that 1/15 of a second, if one wheel is in ice, one wheel is in a puddle, one wheel is in ATF, and the last wheel is on dry pavement, each wheel is still modulated to whatever force is required to achieve that 10-15% slip rate.

This slip rate is why you can hear the tires chirping and chattering as they slip slightly across the road during ABS activation. This is why even if you know your braking threshold, you're not going to achieve the slip rate that ABS can create.

Regardless of how talented and sensitive you think your driving skills are, you cannot perform an emergency stop on a paved road in the same distance as an ABS equipped vehicle.

Even if you could somehow pump the pedal 15 times per second and approach exactly 15% slip rate each time, you're modulating all 4 wheels at once with the same applied force. This was, in fact, 1-channel ABS (all four wheels modulated at the same exact pressure).

The only situation that a non-ABS equipped vehicle could stop faster is in gravel/snow/loose material.

Track drivers prefer not to have ABS because of it's instrusive, non-interactive feeling and the desire to have as much personal control of the car as possible. Even when you've reached a level of control to play with the lock-up threshold of your brakes, ABS would still stop you sooner.

Edit: a fellow H-T member says that skilled drivers can match or reduce braking distance without ABS by remaining at the limit of traction instead of continually crossing back and forth over it as ABS does.


My own opinion:

Everyone thinks they're a better driver than they really are. In reality, everyone is probably going to slam on their brakes during a panic stop. In a track situation, you're already anticipating the action and the driver in front has braked at a similar rate as yourself. And, you've performed the same braking maneuver over and over at the same place.

But, it's a different story when you're drinking your coffee, telling your girlfriend you're on the way, and skipping to the next song with the sun in your eyes and you suddenly see three red LEDs rushing towards you. You're not going to think "Oh, I'd better apply what I learned last month at the track and play with my pedal pressure until I feel the wheels lock up."

People can feel free to type up their stories about how not having ABS saved their car, but those stories are the exception compared to the thousands of accidents that occur everyday. For public driving, ABS is a great accessory to have. Soon, it will be mandatory anyway.



Summary:
ABS is faster than your foot and brain
Racing's more fun without ABS, but you still can't stop as fast as ABS(unless rally racing or you're skilled)




Modified by VTECnKEN at 8:07 AM 11/29/2006


Modified by VTECnKEN at 8:10 AM 11/29/2006

The Birdman

^^Some very good points, and of technical merit as well. This has turned out to be one of the most efficient argumentative threads I have seen in this forum in a while...

Rocket Man

VTECHnKEN please check your PM's

mgags7

Ken do you have the info on the 3 channel system like in the 4g prelude?

I suppose that the variance in the 10-15% number is related to the grippiness of the tire?

Good info, and you're completely right, no human can react that fast....if you are going to take your abs out you need to realize two things:
1) if you don't pay good attention while you're driving and you get in an accident because of that that may have been prevented by abs, don't come back whining about it
2) if someone else causes you to get in an accident, and it is their fault, you/they could either be hurt more severely and/or your/their property could be damaged more than it would have with abs...

JDMhondalude22

you musta been flying down that hill and have no tires.

and i dont think that crx you want is going to have abs, correct me if im wrong, but i dont think they have it.

Silver Surfer

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTECnKEN &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
A 4-channel ABS system pulses all brake lines 15 times per second. The human foot can pump the pedal about 4 times in the same time.

During each pulse, the ABS detects the slip rate of each wheel at that moment. It applies anywhere from 10-15% slip rate to maximize braking force. During that 1/15 of a second, if one wheel is in ice, one wheel is in a puddle, one wheel is in ATF, and the last wheel is on dry pavement, each wheel is still modulated to whatever force is required to achieve that 10-15% slip rate.

you're not going to achieve the slip rate that ABS can create.

Regardless of how talented and sensitive you think your driving skills are, you cannot perform an emergency stop on a paved road in the same distance as an ABS equipped vehicle.

Even if you could somehow pump the pedal 15 times per second and approach exactly 15% slip rate each time, you're modulating all 4 wheels at once with the same applied force. This was, in fact, 1-channel ABS (all four wheels modulated at the same exact pressure).

skilled drivers can match or reduce braking distance without ABS by remaining at the limit of traction instead of continually crossing back and forth over it as ABS does.

Everyone thinks they're a better driver than they really are. In reality, everyone is probably going to slam on their brakes during a panic stop.

But, it's a different story when you're drinking your coffee, telling your girlfriend you're on the way, and skipping to the next song with the sun in your eyes and you suddenly see three red LEDs rushing towards you.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

-you made some good points but they are also very extreme points.
-for one you don't need to achieve the same slip rate if you never go into a skid in the first place
-abs is for (key word here)emergency stops
-for your puddle/ice/atf situation, if you didn't have the sense to plan ahead before you reached those hazards then you deserve to slam into something.....pay attention when you are driving
-if you are drinking your coffee, telling your girlfriend you're on the way, and skipping to the next song with the sun in your eyes then you don't deserve to have a license.......this is not an "accident", it should be termed criminal negligence
-finally i realize that abs is a helpful feature for the common driver, so don't get me wrong i am not against abs(have to account for the other stupid drivers).....but i would hope that anyone considering removing it on this site would have the common sense to be aware while driving and i expect that many have upgraded tires that would reduce the chance of a skid in the first place.