LostStranger

Kind of new to working on cars in general. I have a 1993 Honda Prelude Si non-vetch. It has an H23A1 and is a stock build.

Here is my issue:
Turns over but won't start. Jumps like it's going to start at times, but does not actually start. Starting fluid in the intake makes a little different but it still does not start. After turning it over for 15-20 seconds, it floods. I know this because I take the plugs out and they are wet and smell like gas.

Plugs, wires and distributor cap/rotor are brand new. Plugs don't look fouled but I cleaned them up anyway, just to make sure. Checked that I'm getting spark to every plug with a spark tester. Have reset the ECU a billion times, even to the point of pulling the tps, turn it over and then plug back in and reset ECU after it wouldn't start. I've repeated that for the EGR, IACV and MAP sensors but none of them had ANY effect on the behavior of the no start.

History that lead to this:
Had to get in the timing cover to replace the front balance shaft seal because it popped off, while I was in there, I changed the belts (soaked in oil) as well as the water pump and other seals just to be safe. I did watch a ton of youtube videos and followed the helms manual when doing this. made sure that the cam's and crank where lined up correctly and did make sure that cylinder one was at TDC. Also did line up the balance shafts.

When I put it all back together it started. It had a ~1800 RPM idle at startup (I gather that is normal for these and that's just the fitv doing its job). However, once it would drop to around the 900-1k RPM range it had a surging idle that would fall to about ~900 RPM and raise to about 2k RPM. After some research, I found it was recommended to clean up the induction system, namely the IACV, FITV and EGRV. I took them all off and cleaned them up. When I put them all back on, it started fine, but idled a bit rough. I hit the gas, thinking I just needed to burn off some of the gunk I had cleaned up, and it stalled. It has not started since that stall.

EDIT: Also changed the PCV Valve. PCV Valve had a crack in it and PCV hose was just old and brittle

Any help would be appreciated and don't hesitate to ask for more details!

Mykizism

Sounds like your main relay has gone bad.

Buy this and replace it, it is located under the dash driver side.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GENUINE-HONDA-ACCORD-ODYSSEY-PILOT-PRELUDE-ACURA-CL-MDX-TL-MAIN-FUEL-RELAY-OEM-/321316256277?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4acff0fa15&vxp=mtr

LostStranger

Really? I thought if the main relay were bad I wouldn't be getting any fuel at all? I can hear it click on when I turn the key over.

I began to suspect the plugs and after cleaning them didn't work I replaced them and it actually starts now. Runs terribly though and dies sometimes when I let off the gas. Acts like it is starving for fuel so I checked the filter and it dumped a bunch of rusty colored fuel. So i've ordered a new fuel filter and hoping that fixes the fuel restriction issues.

Mykizism

Ohh okay, cool. Yeah sometimes it can spray fuel some fuel due to pressure in the line, but not stay on long enough to run the car. But yeah it doesn't hurt to change the filter out, a clogged filter is never a good thing. Check the tank to see if everything is okay in it too and look to see the condition of the fuel sock.

J.R

would it even turn over or crank if the main relay was bad?

Because my Prelude won't start right now. It cranks and cranks but it just floods the engine and doesn't start.

Mykizism

Yeah with a bad main relay, your car can prime fuel and crank just like normal. The main relay is to keep the fuel pump on after the car has started, it sounds like to me that the fuel pump is priming, (creating pressure in the fuel system) , you car starts runs a bit then dies, because fuel pump isn't staying on.

Things I would check are:

Fuel tank, fuel pump and fuel sock. (sounds like pump is working okay since you can smell fuel on spark plugs)
Replace Main relay (its 50 dollars and good insurance to have a new one or even a backup) (relays have a life span and solder points inside them can degrade over time)
Sounds like you already checked spark (just make sure you are getting spark at the plugs) (pull plugs and connect them to plug wires and check while cranking)

J.R

LostStranger, let us know how you fix it if you fix it.
How is your car doing so far?

viper_boy403

iTrader: (1)

Sounds like you switched your MAP and TPS plugs.

LostStranger

Ok, sorry it took so long to get back to everyone. After the christmas holidays were over with, I got back out there and just decided to take the timing covers off and check everything out. I was nervous about them since it's my first timing belt change on one of these and they weren't alot like others I've done. After careful inspection I found that the intake cam was misaligned by approximately 1 tooth on the belt. After making that adjustment and changing my plugs to NGK's the car is running very well.

However, now I am experiencing the infamous surging idle again. I'm working to fix the surging idle issue now, but after cleaning out the EGR, FITV and IACV the car is still experiencing surging idle from ~900 - ~2000 RPM's up and down for the first 15 minutes it runs. Once I run it for a bit the surging idle goes away and it runs like a dream! I will check the TPS and MAP sensors to make sure the plugs aren't switched but I'm pretty certain they are on correctly.

EDIT: Verified TPS and MAP sensors aren't plugged in wrong. They are still in the factory clips so the MAP sensor plug won't even reach the TPS plug. I looked at them though, and they look similar but not identical on my car, so I don't think one would plug into the other anyway but thanks for suggesting it!

LostStranger

The Car WILL turn over regardless of whether or not it is getting fuel. What I did when mine was flooding went in this order:

1. Verify you are getting spark to the end of EVERY plug wire (used a spark tester)
2. Verify your fuel pressure as close to the fuel rail as you can get it
3. Verify compression at each cylinder
4. Starting hunting down sensors

Notes:
1. If you are getting spark to the end of each of your plug wires for sure, then you can be sure your plug is getting spark. The next step would be to get some long insulated pliers, pull one plug out (leave it in the wire) hold it with your long insulated pliers and maybe some insulated gloves if you really hate to get shocked. Then have someone crank the engine and hold the plug next to a ground bolt or anything that you could use to get a good ground. You are looking for a nice blue arc that proves your plugs are actually sparking and with plenty of power.

2. If you're fuel pressure is low, then you'll want to check your filter to make sure it isn't clogged before doing anything drastic like replacing your fuel pump.

3. If spark is good and fuel pressure is good there is really only the air variable remaining. You'll have to do some searching to see what's recommended for your model of car and how to test those things. For the 93 prelude non-vtech h23a1 it's basically test your TPS, injectors and engine compression. I've got a write up of what I had to do for my no start on this vehicle not long ago, here:

https://honda-tech.com/honda-prelude.../#post49833880

LostStranger

Also, as a note because I learned this lesson from this post. If you have done any work recently on it, go back and re-verify everything. Had I done that it would have saved me a day or two of troubleshooting and several days of worry!

LostStranger

Annnnnd BOOM goes the dynamite. I was hearing some strange noises, took the valve cover off and the belt is walking off the gears and eating itself up on the timing cover.... so guess I'll be redoing it for the fourth time to see if I can figure out what is causing it to walk off. If anyone has any suggestions please let me know otherwise I can only

EDIT:
I've been searching on forums, I've seen recommendations to replace a bolt which may be bent, and to verify the balance shaft belt isn't too tight. I did tighten the balance shaft belt quite a bit, so I've ordered a krikit belt tension gauge and when it gets here, i'll be properly checking all of the belts to verify the tension is set correctly.

holmesnmanny

If you had previously jumped a tooth and now its walking off, i would first suspect your tensioner is bad if you have one or the tension is not being set correctly somehow.

LostStranger

Thanks for the response. I just got my belt tensioner guage so I'll be testing it this weekend to see what both timing belts are at. I do have 2 manual tensioners (1 for each timing belt, my prelude has a cam timing belt and a balance timing belt). I can push the cam timing belt back on track with my fingers so I assume it is not tight enough, which leads me to believe I may need a new tensioner for that one. Will report back as soon as I know more!

LostStranger

Well the tensioner guage is showing them at or just under 100 lbs which is pretty close to factory after running it for 5 minutes (which I definitely have done). I can't find anything off on the tensioners, so i'm at a loss. I guess maybe I need to replace the tensioners, but I don't know that to be true.

Does anyone know of a proper way to actually test the tensioners or if there are other fixes/tests to do to see what might be causing the belt to walk off the cams?

Sakanora

I also cleaned, swapped, adjusted the FITV and IACV, also swapped my coolant sensors, the ultimate fix for me was bleeding the coolant properly as described in the manual to remove all air bubbles. It fixed surging idle because it wasn't reading the coolant temperature properly because of the air bubbles.

LostStranger

Thanks for the response. One of the first things I did was bleed the coolant system like four times, but I haven't tried messing with the idle recently since I found my timing belt walking off the cams

LostStranger

So I finally found an issue, the bracket on my cam tensioner pulley is slightly bent. I got a new one just in case, but it's looking like it will bend as well. What I think is happening is there is a washer that I didn't see when I took that thing off, but I can't find a washer anywhere so I'm not sure. The manual for my prelude really doesn't get into detail on that tensioner, so even in the diagrams I'm unable to confirm if a washer should be there:

4th gen 92-96 Service Manual

I'm going to try a spacer of some type or different sizes, and just turn it by hand until I'm satisfied that the belt isn't moving. Typically I would be worried that it just means something else is off, but I can't find anything at all and I've redone this thing like 5 times...

holmesnmanny

Take a few detailed pictures or vids of your tensioner setup. Its possible you are missing the critical spacer that is needed on manual tensioner conversions.

LostStranger

Will do. Not sure what a "manual tensioner conversion" is though. If you are meaning a conversion to the hydraulic tensioner then I can confirm for you that it does not have a hydraulic tensioner. Will post pics ASAP though!

Also, would it be better if I created a new post for the timing stuff? The flooding issue was resolved by replacing my spark plugs which had been fouled from cleaning the intake.

holmesnmanny

Sry i was thinking u had an si vtec. However still take some pics so people can see whats going on with your timing setup especially anything you think is bent.

LostStranger

Ran it without the top timing cover and can see that the exhaust side of the cam's is the only place the belt appears to be actually moving and it looks like its not settling, but moving in and out. So I think there is something bent there. I'm swapping cam pulley's tonight to see if the movement follows the pulley or stays where it is. Will post vid tomorrow after I get it all back together (in the daylight) whlie it's actually running.

EDIT:
Well I didn't get to post the video... mostly because once I switched the cam pulley's to see if the movement followed the pulley on the exhaust cam, it seems to have fixed itself. The only thing I can think it might be is that the left and right pulley's are balanced or machined slightly differently and I somehow got them mixed up when I was putting everything back together originally. If anyone knows for sure i'd like to hear about it!