Failed Emission Inspection 91 CRX-HF (Northern VA)
07-13-2006, 01:48 AM
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between my laziness and the EXTREME heat and humidity, i didnt do **** with my car today. I didnt work on it nor take it in for testing. I have tomorrow left to do any remaining work on it, and then Friday to get it tested. So thats the plan for now, and i will update accordingly. Anyhow, on to some of the responses:
Freakin Autozone, when i called them, some kid answered and he didnt even know WTF i was talking about. He covered the phone with his hand while he yelled to some other employee for the answer. And after all that, he clearly stated that the RENTAL was 15 bucks. He NEVER explained thats how much the deposit would be. Sucks because i would have rather not spent money on a tool i can only use once every coule of years. But i did some substantial damage to the inside of the sokcet that i bought, so maybe i would have lost the 15 bucks either way. But i appreciate the info, i may need to rent some other tool from there eventually. Without your input i had given up on them and did NOT intend to ever rent **** from them.
Maybe i wasnt very clear, but the gas station wanted $60 for the LABOR to change the O2 sensor. They wanted another $55.00 for the part. I agree with you that if it was $60 total bucks to do it, it might have been worth it. At the point where the socket i used failed (kept slipping around the sensor) and i had to go get a hose clamp, i was thinking exactly what you were saying: "maybe i shoulda let them do it". But at that point i wasnt sure i was gonna be able to get mine off, so i was losing hope. I could have probably gotten my old one off real easy if i had destroyed it, but i didnt want to risk ******* up the wire to it, and then not getting it off. Otherwise i could have broken off the top of the old sensor enough to fit a regular socket over it, but then i would have chanced failing and gettin stuck running with no sensor. So i went thru a lil extra effort and trouble because of that. As far as doing it myself, i dont mind learning more DIY stuff since im fairly mechanically inclined (if not a lil inexperienced), plus i can trust the work i do since i wont lie to me if i do something wrong. Thats been my past experience with paid mechanics at shops, they have generally screwed me. And for the price this gas station was asking, i was able to replace a whole lot more than just my O2 sensor.
O2 sensor- $40.39
O2 socket- $15.32
hose clamp- $2.74 (for a pair though i only used one)
plus 2 hours running around, and 1 hour messing with removal/install
total: $58.45
pcv valve- $9.27
dist. cap- $17.78
rotor- $5.22
plus (done earlier):
spark plugs- $10.00 (estimated)
oil and oil filter- $15.00 (estimated)
plus 1 hour running around, 1 hour removal/install
total: $57.70 (give or take 3 dollars)
still waiting to add/do:
new air filter: 6 to 8 bucks
intake cleaner spray: 2 bucks
fuel filter: 15-20 bucks
total cost of tune up (so far): $146.15 (give or take 5 bucks)
plus (in order to pass emissions) i had to replace old rusted thru:
muffler- $150.00 (includes $20 for labor)
rough total to pass emissions (hopefully) AND have my car run way better and hence last longer: $300.00
i expect to see a significant improvement in gas mileage so most of the $150 spent on the tune-up is worth every cent, especially with gas running around (or higher than) 3 bucks per gallon these days. BTW- i think the two biggest factors in improving the way the car runs, and consequently what level of gases it emits was the replacement of the distributor cap/rotor combo, and my old pcv valve (which was stuck due to oil build up). Here are some pics:
what is that blue **** that has built up everywhere? The coil was full of this **** as is evidenced by the pin from the dizzy cap...
hey man i tried to yank on that hose but it was stuck on pretty tight so i did NOT try to force it off. But i was hoping you could refresh my memory as to what im looking for if and when i do get it off finally. If i find fuel in that line something is wrong? or am i supposed to find fuel in that line?
here is the EGR:
Now im not saying i will be taking it off yet (since i dont think i have to), but i didnt find any pics on the site with that "thing" (sensor maybe?) on top of it. How do i get that off, or do i even bother taking it off? In fact, if you could briefly just mention how to check the EGR valve itself (aside from removing the two bolts), i would be much obliged.
hate to bug you for more specifics, but can you tell me which is the SOLENOID? i assume its the one with the hose that runs to the EGR valve, right? BUT how do i check it? btw- thanx again for all the help.
special thanx (for their inputs/insights):
2.3litreVtech
NVS_RSX
and yes fellow Virginians, Northern VA (im in Alrington, less than 1 mile from the Pentagon) has some strict emissions testing requirements unless your car is more than 25 years old (like my other car- a 1967 Buick Skylark).
For more on the specifics of VA's emissions policies you can look here: http://www.deq.state.va.us/mobile/mobfaq.html
Modified by D15B666 at 5:58 AM 7/13/2006
Modified by D15B666 at 6:05 AM 7/13/2006
Originally Posted by davens
A quick note on Autozone tools...it's not $15 to rent the tool. That's a deposit. If you return the tool in an unmangled state, you get your money back.
And $60 to replace an o2 sensor is not unreasonable. Yes its cheaper to do it yourself, but I don't know what auto repair isn't. You've got $20-35 in a new o2 sensor and $10-15 in an o2 sensor tool plus at least 30 minutes of your time in the car plus whatever you time you've spent doing research. $60 to make this problem go away sounds pretty fair at this point.
And $60 to replace an o2 sensor is not unreasonable. Yes its cheaper to do it yourself, but I don't know what auto repair isn't. You've got $20-35 in a new o2 sensor and $10-15 in an o2 sensor tool plus at least 30 minutes of your time in the car plus whatever you time you've spent doing research. $60 to make this problem go away sounds pretty fair at this point.
Freakin Autozone, when i called them, some kid answered and he didnt even know WTF i was talking about. He covered the phone with his hand while he yelled to some other employee for the answer. And after all that, he clearly stated that the RENTAL was 15 bucks. He NEVER explained thats how much the deposit would be. Sucks because i would have rather not spent money on a tool i can only use once every coule of years. But i did some substantial damage to the inside of the sokcet that i bought, so maybe i would have lost the 15 bucks either way. But i appreciate the info, i may need to rent some other tool from there eventually. Without your input i had given up on them and did NOT intend to ever rent **** from them.
Maybe i wasnt very clear, but the gas station wanted $60 for the LABOR to change the O2 sensor. They wanted another $55.00 for the part. I agree with you that if it was $60 total bucks to do it, it might have been worth it. At the point where the socket i used failed (kept slipping around the sensor) and i had to go get a hose clamp, i was thinking exactly what you were saying: "maybe i shoulda let them do it". But at that point i wasnt sure i was gonna be able to get mine off, so i was losing hope. I could have probably gotten my old one off real easy if i had destroyed it, but i didnt want to risk ******* up the wire to it, and then not getting it off. Otherwise i could have broken off the top of the old sensor enough to fit a regular socket over it, but then i would have chanced failing and gettin stuck running with no sensor. So i went thru a lil extra effort and trouble because of that. As far as doing it myself, i dont mind learning more DIY stuff since im fairly mechanically inclined (if not a lil inexperienced), plus i can trust the work i do since i wont lie to me if i do something wrong. Thats been my past experience with paid mechanics at shops, they have generally screwed me. And for the price this gas station was asking, i was able to replace a whole lot more than just my O2 sensor.
O2 sensor- $40.39
O2 socket- $15.32
hose clamp- $2.74 (for a pair though i only used one)
plus 2 hours running around, and 1 hour messing with removal/install
total: $58.45
pcv valve- $9.27
dist. cap- $17.78
rotor- $5.22
plus (done earlier):
spark plugs- $10.00 (estimated)
oil and oil filter- $15.00 (estimated)
plus 1 hour running around, 1 hour removal/install
total: $57.70 (give or take 3 dollars)
still waiting to add/do:
new air filter: 6 to 8 bucks
intake cleaner spray: 2 bucks
fuel filter: 15-20 bucks
total cost of tune up (so far): $146.15 (give or take 5 bucks)
plus (in order to pass emissions) i had to replace old rusted thru:
muffler- $150.00 (includes $20 for labor)
rough total to pass emissions (hopefully) AND have my car run way better and hence last longer: $300.00
i expect to see a significant improvement in gas mileage so most of the $150 spent on the tune-up is worth every cent, especially with gas running around (or higher than) 3 bucks per gallon these days. BTW- i think the two biggest factors in improving the way the car runs, and consequently what level of gases it emits was the replacement of the distributor cap/rotor combo, and my old pcv valve (which was stuck due to oil build up). Here are some pics:
what is that blue **** that has built up everywhere? The coil was full of this **** as is evidenced by the pin from the dizzy cap...
Originally Posted by fourthgenhatchB17
Look under the "PGM-FI programmed fuel injection" decal and see the single large hose, along with the 2 smaller hoses side by side? The FPR line is the one furthest to the right (one of the smaller lines).
Originally Posted by thesmogman
CO is bad combustion Can be anything from vacuum leak to tune-up, leaking EGR valve or stuck open EGR, even old gas will do it! Or an egr that is getting vacuum all the time. Can be also plugged egr ports into the IM...
Now im not saying i will be taking it off yet (since i dont think i have to), but i didnt find any pics on the site with that "thing" (sensor maybe?) on top of it. How do i get that off, or do i even bother taking it off? In fact, if you could briefly just mention how to check the EGR valve itself (aside from removing the two bolts), i would be much obliged.
Originally Posted by thesmogman
And the test report with 6.25CO... The EGR does not function at 15 usually. But at 25 it does. Check your EGR system. The control box on the back right of the motor compartment has a solenoid to control the EGR valve, check it. It goes bad on alot of Honda's. A clue would be rough running at this range only.
hate to bug you for more specifics, but can you tell me which is the SOLENOID? i assume its the one with the hose that runs to the EGR valve, right? BUT how do i check it? btw- thanx again for all the help.
special thanx (for their inputs/insights):
2.3litreVtech
NVS_RSX
and yes fellow Virginians, Northern VA (im in Alrington, less than 1 mile from the Pentagon) has some strict emissions testing requirements unless your car is more than 25 years old (like my other car- a 1967 Buick Skylark).
For more on the specifics of VA's emissions policies you can look here: http://www.deq.state.va.us/mobile/mobfaq.html
Modified by D15B666 at 5:58 AM 7/13/2006
Modified by D15B666 at 6:05 AM 7/13/2006
07-13-2006, 08:16 AM
#30
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I do believe that the EGR valve mainly controls NOX emission. It allows exhaust gas to pass into the intake system and dilute the mixture so you dont run too lean (@ cruising speeds) lowering NOx emissions. Lean mixture with lean misfire cause high HC, and high NOX.
To test EGR, #1 get a vaccum tester and put one end on the EGR and pull vaccum. If the motor wants to die out its working. #2 take the end of the vacuum tester and attach it to th hose that goes to the EGR. Rev it up with the throttle and you should see the gauge on the Vacuum tester move showing if it has vacuum. If no Vacuum then test the soleniods. Correct me if im wrong.
But I think all the parts you replaces should fix the problem. Just get it retested.
To test EGR, #1 get a vaccum tester and put one end on the EGR and pull vaccum. If the motor wants to die out its working. #2 take the end of the vacuum tester and attach it to th hose that goes to the EGR. Rev it up with the throttle and you should see the gauge on the Vacuum tester move showing if it has vacuum. If no Vacuum then test the soleniods. Correct me if im wrong.
But I think all the parts you replaces should fix the problem. Just get it retested.
07-13-2006, 10:16 AM
#33
Honda-Tech Member
holy crap, $150 for a muffler???? if it is anything other than some exotic stainless mad tight bling bling performance muffler, YOU GOT RAPED. lemme guess, u went to midas?
07-13-2006, 10:20 AM
#34
Honda-Tech Member
oh, and I've never seen a cap and rotor get as bad as yours got. probably should have been changed like 40,000 miles ago. no wonder your car failed. did you get new spark plug wires? you probably should.
07-13-2006, 02:21 PM
#35
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quik question: can i use (brand new) spark plug wires (Xact brand #4712) from a 90 Prelude si (b21a5) on my my CRX (which normally uses Xact brand #4714?
they look to be the same length, but are they the same electrically? The only difference i see between the sets is the extra wire from the dist. to the external coil on the Prelude. Otherwise the wires appear to be the same.
The thing is i have two extra sets of 4712 wires (minus one wire to cylinder 3, becuz i kept having to replace that one on my Prelude, but thats a whole other story...). Im just trying to save some bucks, and get this done beofre the thunderstorm kicks in tonight.
Any confirmation would be much appreciated.
thanx
they look to be the same length, but are they the same electrically? The only difference i see between the sets is the extra wire from the dist. to the external coil on the Prelude. Otherwise the wires appear to be the same.
The thing is i have two extra sets of 4712 wires (minus one wire to cylinder 3, becuz i kept having to replace that one on my Prelude, but thats a whole other story...). Im just trying to save some bucks, and get this done beofre the thunderstorm kicks in tonight.
Any confirmation would be much appreciated.
thanx
07-13-2006, 02:22 PM
#36
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Re: spark plugs wires
quik question: can i use (brand new) spark plug wires (Xact brand #4712) from a 90 Prelude si (b21a5) on my my CRX (which normally uses Xact brand #4714?
they look to be the same length, but are they the same electrically? The only difference i see between the sets is the extra wire from the dist. to the external coil on the Prelude. Otherwise the wires appear to be the same.
The thing is i have two extra sets of 4712 wires (minus one wire to cylinder 3, becuz i kept having to replace that one on my Prelude, but thats a whole other story...). Im just trying to save some bucks, and get this done beofre the thunderstorm kicks in tonight.
Any confirmation would be much appreciated.
thanx
EDIT:
nevermind the above post, im a retard. I didnt take the height of the head in to account, so the wires are NOT the same, duh. thanx anyhow.
Modified by D15B666 at 9:12 PM 7/13/2006
they look to be the same length, but are they the same electrically? The only difference i see between the sets is the extra wire from the dist. to the external coil on the Prelude. Otherwise the wires appear to be the same.
The thing is i have two extra sets of 4712 wires (minus one wire to cylinder 3, becuz i kept having to replace that one on my Prelude, but thats a whole other story...). Im just trying to save some bucks, and get this done beofre the thunderstorm kicks in tonight.
Any confirmation would be much appreciated.
thanx
EDIT:
nevermind the above post, im a retard. I didnt take the height of the head in to account, so the wires are NOT the same, duh. thanx anyhow.
Modified by D15B666 at 9:12 PM 7/13/2006
07-14-2006, 09:25 PM
#37
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Re: TEST PASSED!
ok so no new wires (no money) and no new fuel filter (no time). But before the test i changed the air filter, and sprayed clean the intake opening (at the butterfly valve), and wiped it clean. I put in 8 bucks worth of 89 octane (i normally use 87), and so i had a third of tank total fuel, NO additives.
On my way to the test i stopped at the Video STore, and left the car running. 10 minutes later i took the "long" way to the gas station. I never got it higher than 3rd gear (speed limit 45) and the trip was only 3 miles. Got to the station and left it running while sitting and waiting my turn, which took approximately 20-25 minutes. So the engine was nice and warmed up when the guy finally did the test.
OLD numbers:
NEW NUMBERS:
I have to admit i wasnt too nervous since i knew had done my part, but i was still appreciative when it was finally official: PASS. With considerably lower numbers overall. Looks like i will be needing a new CAT down the line based on the No numbers, but it still passed. Speaking of which what a major reversal there with the No numbers, from 252 up to 2301. It tells me that they probably did NOT warm up the car before that first test.
The thing is i could already feel the improvement in the engine, regardless of the test. Last nite (the first time i have gotten the car out on the highway without bumpr2bumpr traffic) i was doin 40mph in 2nd gear at 3000rpm and 60mph in 3rd gear at 3000rpm. Mind you this is just a stock car and its the HF tranny, but it was a huge improvement over the sluggishness it had before.
Anyhow, thanks again to all of for your input and knowledge, it definitely helped me understand the whole emissions equation much better than before.
On my way to the test i stopped at the Video STore, and left the car running. 10 minutes later i took the "long" way to the gas station. I never got it higher than 3rd gear (speed limit 45) and the trip was only 3 miles. Got to the station and left it running while sitting and waiting my turn, which took approximately 20-25 minutes. So the engine was nice and warmed up when the guy finally did the test.
OLD numbers:
NEW NUMBERS:
I have to admit i wasnt too nervous since i knew had done my part, but i was still appreciative when it was finally official: PASS. With considerably lower numbers overall. Looks like i will be needing a new CAT down the line based on the No numbers, but it still passed. Speaking of which what a major reversal there with the No numbers, from 252 up to 2301. It tells me that they probably did NOT warm up the car before that first test.
The thing is i could already feel the improvement in the engine, regardless of the test. Last nite (the first time i have gotten the car out on the highway without bumpr2bumpr traffic) i was doin 40mph in 2nd gear at 3000rpm and 60mph in 3rd gear at 3000rpm. Mind you this is just a stock car and its the HF tranny, but it was a huge improvement over the sluggishness it had before.
Anyhow, thanks again to all of for your input and knowledge, it definitely helped me understand the whole emissions equation much better than before.
07-15-2006, 01:15 AM
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Re: TEST PASSED! (D15B666)
My speculation: The reason your NoX went up was b/c the engine is now operating leaner than before (you now have lower HC) so the combustion temps will naturally be higher. A richer condition tends to cool things down so your NoX should go lower when HC is high. I also wouldnt doubt that you have some carbon build up, which causes combustion temp to increase.
You may also be correct about the first time when they didnt warm the car up sufficiently. It could have been running richer than if it was fully warmed up.
High combustion temps = high NoX readings
Also regarding the higher NoX readings, your EGR flow could be borderline.
You may also be correct about the first time when they didnt warm the car up sufficiently. It could have been running richer than if it was fully warmed up.
High combustion temps = high NoX readings
Also regarding the higher NoX readings, your EGR flow could be borderline.
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