suspendedHatch

I have a 90 Civic Si, OBD0 SOHC ZC engine (same as D16A6), it runs great. I have to smog it. Part of the test is that they check the ignition timing. My timing is outside of spec, it's retarded about 2 degrees, but the dizzy can't turn any further.

verified the dizzy part #
verified the ecu part #
verified the cam timing
yes I'm turning the dizzy the right way
yes I jumpered the diagnostic plug in the passengers kick
there are no check engine codes
idle speed is fine
engine is warmed up

The crank pulley is from a Civic DX. Both engines have the same ignition timing spec so it should be fine.

When I jumper the connector, it doesn't cause the check engine light to stay on like it does with my 93 Civic. The LED on the ECU blinks but doesn't stay on. The CEL on the cluster goes out after one second with the engine running.

SFlCrx

2 degrees i don't think that will cause you to fail the test but i have never had one before or will ever get on i love florida but the crank pulley could also be different in size throw the stock crank pulley back on and check it again.

thesmogman

What is your spec?
Are you sure the pulley's are the same?
On a Honda you have a 2 degree + or - from spec.
Or what you can tell him is the timing belt cover is off a bit. Might work?

So I am guessing your spec is 18btdc I have an D16a6 and I have went through what you are going thru. It turned out to be a worn cam gear.
What I found out is if I moved the cam gear one tooth it got me to 20btdc if I put it back to where it was it was at 16btdc. could not get it to spec.

But before you do all of this check your rotor and make sure it is good, not loose.

suspendedHatch

Spec is 18+/- 2. Regardless if it passes the sniffer, if it's not within those specs it's an automatic fail. It bothers me because I know that a fully advanced distributor gives you 23 degrees. Even if I move away to Florida, the fact is that I'm wasting that much of my engine's potential. Some where between 18 and 20 degrees advance is going to give me the best power and mileage.

Tried another Si dizzy.

I don't have the stock crank pulley. When I bought the car, it had probably an Accord crank pulley. It was much heavier, there was an extra tooth on the accessory, and the timing marks were way off. I've been told from a reliable source that the crank pulley's between the DX and Si are interchangeable. Besides, if my ignition timing were really 23 degrees, I'd be pinging like mad on this 87 octane.

I noticed that the crank had some play in it when I put the pulley on. Is that normal? I had it in gear with a screwdriver jammed in the flywheel.

ALLMOTORCRX20

Something is wrong with your crank pulley cause it shouldnt have any play. Maybe the key that prevents the pulley from moving is messed up or its not the correct one. You should also check the pulley that you have to make sure its not worn where the key goes.

I know you said you checked the timing, but I would go ahead and check it one more time. Take the pulley off and make sure the timing belt is right on the money. Also, verify that the cam gear is the one for the engine. On the newer civics, the d16z6 and the d16y8 stock cam gears are different when it comes to timing so it would not be a bad idea to check that out.

Bense

time to pull the pulley off and mark it in the correct locations.

use a protractor

suspendedHatch

If the cam timing is off by a tooth, that's a big jump and the car seriously bogs. You know right away if it's off. I'll take your advice and either A) try to find a D16A6 crank pulley and key on ebay B) just try another D15 crank pulley and key from the junkyard.

My ignition timing is maxxed out at 15 degrees. You want me to make marks right on top of the factory marks moving the indicated timing over, but that isn't going to change my actual timing. When the car fails the sniffer due to retarded timing, should I just leave the dizzy where it is and just make new marks indicating I advanced it? ******* silly.

Thanks for all the suggestions. The registration is paid but they wont give me a sticker or put the car in my name until it passes smog. The current sticker just expired so I guess there's no real rush now to figure it out.

DelSolDon

did you take the crank pulley bolt out to check the woodruff key and the slot that it fits into? one of the d-series cranks that i have laying around has a worn slot (it's bigger and misshapen) in the crank where the key fits into. this would cause the pulley to appear to be off, but the cam and ignition timing would be OK.

what I would do:
(1) set engine to TDC (according to the pulley) take the pulley off and check the slot where the woodruff key goes, if it is worn out, the only option that I know of is to replace the crank. if the slot is OK, then proceed to step 2.

(2) pull the lower timing cover off and check to see if the mark on the timing belt sprocket lines up with the arrow on the oil pump (in about the 3 o'clock position). this shows true TDC (takes any errors of the crank pulley out of the equation). if you set the engine to TDC before according to the pulley, and it is not lining up now as TDC, then you have a problem with your pulley and/ or the key that holds it still.

if the key and slot check out OK and the pulley TDC and the true TDC are the same, then I'm out of advice.

suspendedHatch

The key and keyslot appear to be okay and fit very snug.

I didn't know about an arrow on the oil pump. I'll check that out. If the crank is worn, then the whole engine is going into the trash because I'm not going to mess around with that.

I'm starting to think the ECU isn't going into diagnostic mode. If I can confirm this, well then the OBD1 conversion will take care of that.

skribblez

recheck the timing on the cam gear. on the zc/si motor when lined up correctly the cam gear is two teeths to the left (counterclockwise). i had the same problem.
i posted a link in this topic. hopefully that helps

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1755796

suspendedHatch

Thanks skribblez. I did have that problem with this motor, then I found the mark on the upper timing cover. The thing is that when the cam timing was off, it was very obvious. There is seemingly nothing wrong with this car. I might end up just swapping to a VTEC head and coverting it to OBD1. What are the chances that it's something wrong with the head or ECU vs something wrong with the block?