two81's

Hello everyone,
I'm trying to get my car legal the legal way. After putting the top side of the engine back together after the previous owner bent some valves, this is my current roadblock. I will try and post pictures.
The car failed because of high NOX at both speed test. Almost double the limit at 15mph and double at 25 mph. I know the engine is running lean because of my fresh plugs being white.
A little info on the engine. Or at least what I have found out about it as I've gone along.
Engine was assembled with oem gaskets
B20b4 block, no markings on pistons
P73 intake
Pr3-3 head with flat face ferea valves
Cams unknown
Precision injectors 880cc low impd
Unknown ecu possibly chipped, tune unknown
The car only runs well with distributor advanced all the way.
Please let me know if I can provide more info. Thanks
So, I guess my question is how can I find out what the tune is and what the ecu is.

two81's

The pictures worked. Does anyone know why there are no recognizable stickers? Is this normal. Sorry for these question. These engine swaps are still ahead of me. Still learning

F22Who

It's a P06 ECU.

two81's

May I ask how you determined that. Does that mean it has been chipped

F22Who

Googled the board 02d011F0-1500 top right. As far as chipped, I'm not up to snuff on that.

two81's

Google is a great thing. Does anyone know if I adjust the timing at 3000rpm and jump the connector under the passenger side of the dash?

4drEF

Wow those are huge injectors for the mods you have.

F22Who

The injectors did jump out at me as well, wasn't sure if there was more to the car or if someone just loves big injectors haha. Excessive fuel will always jack up emissions. Too much fuel will cause raw gas making it through and that's no bueno.

Freemananana

iTrader: (3)

880cc would definitely require a tune. I doubt you could turn the car on with injectors that large. 240cc to 880cc is a huge difference. Your fuel pump has probably been changed. Do you have any idea what the fuel pressure is? I would definitely tune that motor. The 'chip' looks like a regular 28 pin eprom chip. I believe you can just pop it out. Pull of the back of the ECU case and take another picture. The chip is in the bottom right of the picture you took. (I can't see it right now, I'm just trying to remember) So when you flip it over you should be able to tell if it is factory solder or someone doing a chip job. P06 is a decent ECU for chipping, but I don't believe it has factory VTEC. I don't really know, but if it doesn't you would need to do quite a bit of modification to get it to run VTEC.

Also, WTF does this mean? Trying to dial in the timing at 3000 RPM will not work. Unless you plan on basing it on total timing in which case you need to red line it while you look at it with the timing gun. Usually requires markings on the crank too. Which I doubt you will have. Most people set timing at 750 rpm or 800 rpm.

Just throwing it out there. If you have no idea whats going on with engine swaps, why start by doing one of the more complicated things. It's a mix matched motor. B20 block with a B16 head. That will require a good tune. The B16 head will flow through much higher RPMs than the B20 block will naturally handle. You should base your redline very carefully. Also, that set up will require a tune, no stock ECU will run it properly. Closest thing you could get would be like a GSR P72 or P75, whatever it is, and hope it works. But the compression ratio with the B20 pistons will not be the same due to the dome shape on the top. Unless they are the same. I really don't know. Then you get into all sorts of things that, and this is the main thing to take away from my rant, will require a tune.

Your answer to your question is easy though. Get a chip burner. Moates makes one that can read chips. But you have to know what software was used to write the chip. You probably want to know the code base incase it messes up. Then you have to get a 'stock' map to compare it to. The timing values, fuel tables, ect values, all sorts of things can be changed. If it was done right then the tune will more than likely have battery delay for the injectors of that size. But it doesn't seem like it was done right. It seems thrown together. If the car won't idle properly and requires distributor advancing to run, you have an issue.

I have a question of my own. Where are you trying to pass emissions? This doesn't seem like it would fair well when it comes to emissions. You will need a tune so the NOX values are within spec obviously. And that will not be a 'max power' sort of tune. Probably have to be run a little more lean than the motor would like so it will pass. But you said the car is running lean now, which doesn't make much sense to me. Don't people tune for almost 12.5:1 AFR under WOT conditions? If your plugs are 'white,' that may be engine knocking. I'm not sure what kind of white you are seeing.

But don't take my word on any of this. I just spout my ideas across the board. I'm usually wrong.

two81's

these are the injectors that were on the car when I bought it. I have no idea what the previous owner was doing or did. The last time the car was inspected,right before i bought it it passed. The paperwork is stil in the glovebox.

The timing was what i found,dont remember where. Obviously it was incorrect. My area of texas requires emissions testing.

What is weird is during the emisions test,it showed to be running lean.

two81's

my fuel pressure is 37 being regulated and 42 with no regulator.

The car idles fine. The injector size is just what is on the box that came with all the parts i recieved.

The pistons are flat. No dome. Only notches for the valves.

If i have a chipped p06 ecu and im running a rywire harness with everything converted to obd1 along with the distributor. Would i need to run a vehicle speed sensor to make everything else function correctly? Right now the spedo cable plugs directly into the trans with no electrical plug in site for the vss. Could this affect Vtec and emmisions. The trans is a ys1

Freemananana

iTrader: (3)

Does your dash cluster show the speed? Or does it not work? The trans is cable driven, like our Ef civics, they don't use an electronic VSS.

4drEF

My thought on the injectors is this -
When the ECU tells the injector to fire it is telling it how long to stay open to control how much fuel to let in.
If the injector is 3 times as large as what the engine requires, then the ECU would only need to keep it open 1/3 the time.

But... nothing is perfect. If the O2 is a little old and lazy, or the ECU tune is a little on the conservative rich side, etc etc tolerances. Well then, it all starts to add up and a little extra time having an injector open adds up to a lot of extra fuel that the engine can't use. With the same tolerances, a smaller injectors left open for the same extra time will let in 3 times less extra fuel.

two81's

The speedo works. A buddy thought that timing and Vtec operation might be hindered because of the obd1 ecu a no vss installed

It doesn't blow black smoke when accelerating. So I guess the tune is compensating

4drEF

OBD1, OBD0, OBD2 need a signal.
OBD1 and OBD2 have an electronic VSS mounted in the transmission. VSS has a signal wire to ECU.
OBD0 has a mechanical speed pulser mounted on the back of the gauge cluster. Pulser has a signal wire to ECU.

Both types work just fine no matter what OBD you have.

If you didn't have the vss/pulser signal, then you would definitely get a VSS "check engine light" error from your ECU.

two81's

I have no check engine light on.

I went back to the inspection place this afternoon and there machine is down. Can't win for losing.

two81's

So I want to wire in a air fuel ratio gauge so I can monitor on the go. I have a rywire harness with obd1 plugs. My bosch o2 has 2blk wires a blue and a white. Does anyone know which would be the signal wire for the o2?

4drEF

Tapping into the stock narrowband O2 isn't going to tell you anything useful.
All it sends to the ECU is a never-ending sinewave. RICH (<14.7:1) or LEAN (>14.7:1)
The ECU uses that info to add fuel or decrease fuel.
Nothing useful to see on a gauge.

Get an extra bung welded into your exhaust and use a wideband O2. That will give you actual readings.

Anyway, if you have your heart set on the stock narrowband, it's easier to do so right at the ECU rather then stringing wires out to the O2. Pin D14 on the ECU.
If you want to string wires all over the place, white wire is most likely the signal wire for connecting on the O2.

two81's

My harness is a rywire that plugs into the ecu. Its a b series tucked harness, no colors. But I will look for d14 thanks.
I have owned one of these gauges before on another car and it seemed to help. Just looking for a way to solve this problem with emissions.

4drEF

Well, the color I said to look for is if you are tapping at the O2.
you supplied the colors in your previous post.
White.

two81's

Ok, so I'm a fairly quiet person when it comes to posting on forums and when I do it is usually because I've looked and can't find an answer. I have found a lot of topics on this question with mixed reviews and opinions. So..... The question. I hooked up the a/f gauge. Brand new out of the box. I have tried pin d 14 at the ecu and also check the wire continuity. The gauge ONLY shows rich. The car has a brand new 4 wire o2 sensor. What could be the problem?
I've heard mixed ideas. "Obd 1 ecu won't allow it to sweep" is this true? I'm wondering if the 02 sensor might be bad. Maybe this is why I failed emissions. But the gauge is showing rich... my plugs represented a lean condition along with the results of the nox on the test. Since my ecu has been changed from non Vtec to Vtec, can it operate without an o2 sensor.
Should I waste my time with this gauge or should it work? (I know it's not accurate without a wideband).
Thanks

Nerologic

The ecu has all the components to convert to vtec, its sockted (you can remove the eprom) and its a p06 so it already has the 4 wire o2 components unlike the p05 CX ecu which is one wire o2.

Only issue is...

There is no jumper at location J1. So right now it's acting like a p28 which as you know is for a sohc 1.6. With the jumper in location J1 it will read off the chip. But that might lead to another problem if there is no burn on the eprom, OR if the burn on the eprom is non vtec.

You will never pass smog the way the ecu is right now. Because the timing is off, the ecu isn't shooting fuel for a 1.6 sohc. The only reason the setup works is because of the large injectors which is compensation for the ecu.

Go on ebay and buy a mugen and spoon chip for like 15 bucks each, put in a jumper at J1 and try out the mugen chip and spoon chip with STOCK injectors. If you run the chipped ECU with those injectors you're going to be running pig rich, so you need to run some stock ones or something a lot smaller.

Good Luck.

hatcht9x

Nice info Nerologic.

OP:
The part that made me grimace was when you said the injectors are 880's based on what you saw from a box that was in with the spare parts..

pre-opened packaging doesn't necessarily mean that's what's in the car..
especially in this case when the computer tells you that you're running lean..

two81's

Nerologic, my ecu has everything you just listed.
You have a point "hatch"
Is there another to tell how rich or lean I'm running w/o the a/f gauge?

two81's

Do I still have to jump the connector to set my timing with my current setup?