ej1mikee

Hi guys i really dont know anything about speakers but i have a jvc after market stereo and im assuming the speakers are jvc speakers as well and they sound super low and once i hit volume up till 18 it sounds so low and crappy like the speakers are gonna pop. Well anyways i just wanted to know what the best speakers would be sound quality wise with a good base sound, and something that would fit my car. Thanks guys

eghatch9295

iTrader: (1)

your car uses 6.5" speakers. im a big fan of infinity. the shitty jvc headunit is part of the reason that your speakers don't sound good- distortion is never good. older (pre 2010) pioneer headunits are great. i have a collection of them for that reason, lol

ej1mikee

Thanks man i really appreciate your response.

Nave43

I 2nd the Pioneer head units, you can get them on amazon for a decent price. The new ones aren't nearly as well built as the older models though.

As far as speakers go check the connections on your current ones before you replace them. Ive seen many a car stereos suffer from bad sound quality just because whoever did the install was lazy. As far as brand its hard to find decent speakers that dont cost an arm and a leg anymore.

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

OP, you need to learn some speaker 101. First off, audio equipment is primarily rated in watts. Everyone with a "hardcore system" will brag about how many watts they have. Amplifiers (and most head units) are built to put out a certain amount of watts of power. The other side that people don't realize, though, is that speakers are made to handle a certain amount of power, too. If you try to feed too many watts through a speaker, the speaker blows. If you try to feed not enough watts through a speaker, though, a lot of people don't realize that can also cause them to blow.

What you describe sounds like you're underpowering or overpowering your speakers. Stop assuming, figure out exactly what you have, and fix your setup so it's properly balanced.

TomCat39

I'm sorry but this is very incorrect. Under powering speakers won't harm the speaker. That's like saying putting only 20 watts of power on a 200 watt bulb is going to burn out the bulb. It just doesn't happen.

The other part most people confuse is RMS vs PEAK power. Marketting tends to use PEAK while the real rating you should be concerned with is the RMS rating. Which if I remember correctly is about .717171717 of peak power.

The other pretty important area that people seem to not always be aware of is the impedance. You get the best power transfer when you match the impedance of the speaker to the impedance of the amp/head unit. So if your amp prefers 2 ohm speakers, you don't get the same oomph if you use 4 ohm speakers and even worse performance if you use house stereo speakers as they are usually 8 ohm impedance. Also if I remember correctly, if your impedances differ to much it can damage the amp/head unit. It's been awhile so don't remember for absolute sure on that one.

There is a very good chance that your JVC head unit doesn't have a decent internal amplifier. Some head units only have an op-amp (pre-amp) to feed to an external amplifier. Or the other possibility is your speakers have a much larger RMS wattage rating than your head unit puts out. If your unit only puts out 40 watts rms per channel and you have 120 watt rms speakers, you will have to be at full volume to only push the speaker 33% or 1/3 it's capabilities.

eghatch9295

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distortion kills speakers, period. doesn't matter at what wattage. cea2006 required manufacturers to clearly post rms power, gone are the days of 90000 watt amps for $30 on ebay.

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

TomCat, there's a glaring problem with your comparison. Bulbs glow. That's all they do. Speakers move the air to create sound. To do that, they have to resonate at very specific frequencies, almost always for fractions of a second at a time to produce a complete song. Light bulbs don't do any of that - they just glow. Clipping, either from over or underpowering, creates excess heat, which can kill voice coils. Thus, underpowering can kill speakers.

Everything is rated by acceptable watt range. Stay within the range for a healthy system. If your speakers want 15-50 RMS, give them 15-50 RMS. If they want 600-1000 RMS, don't give them 350 and expect them to work right. This is super simple stuff.

And, as with all things, don't assume you have anything. If you don't know exactly what speakers you have, find out.

eghatch9295

iTrader: (1)

underpowering causes distortion. it does kill speakers, and fast.

TomCat39

Both of you are going to have to show me where under powering a speaker "kills" speakers.

"Clipping" has to do with the audio wave form when you over amp it, it clips.

Distortion is clipping of the wave form, either from physically over driving the speaker (so it clips the tops of the wave form) or by "clipping" the peaks off the audio wave electronically in the transistors.

The analogy of bulb and speaker is correct, the voice coil is a wire wound around a tube, glued to a cone. The bulb is a wire element, sometime wound in a small coil in a bulb. They electrically operate exactly the same. The only difference is the speaker has a magnet that causes resistance to the coil during operation creating feedback pulses to the head unit.

Under power means a quiet speaker. Without power there is not heat, nor is there extra movement. Maybe under powering can kill the amp, but the speaker itself will be fine.

You show me evidence, or some kind of proof under powering the speaker damages the speaker. Until then my electronics education trumps your random internet claims.

As for CEA2006, yes, the manufacturer have posted RMS, I said marketing... Go onto amazon.com and look at speakers, the marketers dodge rms at least 50% of the time and only display the peak power. Once you get the speakers in hand you see the rms as the manufacturer has that information on the product.

Marketers don't have to follow the same rules.

Jimi Hondrix

One of my home-built guitar tube amps puts out 5 watts RMS and the speaker I have it paired with peak wattage is 150 and RMS 75. It's still alive and well after 10 years.

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

You obviously didn't even bother reading my very clear, very concise, and very accurate explanation for why your analogy was trash. Since you're unwilling to learn something, I guess we're done here

Jimi Hondrix

How about settling this with the help of audiophile geeks... Underpowered vs Overpower Speakers... Which is worse? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews ...instead of you bunch of deeks. Looks like there is no clear (npi) answer.

TomCat39

That's a pretty good read, thanks Jimi.

@NAR, that's a pretty lame cop out. I read your reply and responded as such, wire is wire is wire is wire and acts like wire.

Less amperage in wire does not cause heat, it reduces heat. When you can prove to me less current means more heat, I'll be all ears, but I know you can't.... So yes, I guess we are done here.

It's not the under powering that is the problem, it's the clipping which can happen from the under powering. The emphasis should be on the clipping, not the under powering. Which really boils down to amp quality.

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

I just typed out this whole detailed explanation of why your light bulb analogy is ****, but you just admitted that I was right.

Oh, you mean exactly what I said, in very specific language, in my second post?

PS: Your light bulb comparison is still ****, for the same reason I said it was **** the first time around. Light bulbs do their job in a static way. Speakers not only do a different job (converting power into sound waves, versus converting power into light), they also do it in a completely different, non-static way. Unless the only thing you listen to is test tones...

eghatch9295

iTrader: (1)

tube amp is apples to oranges here.

Jimi Hondrix

Not when the conversation is about speakers (effect of under-driving and distortion) Both solid state and tube put out a signal.. one that either under-drives, overdrives or matches a particular speaker in question.

Previous generation solid state amps were generally rated in peak watts to make them more appealing to consumers. Since the birth of the internet and more educated consumers solid state manufacturers are (even guitar amps) are moving towards a true RMS rating as well as peak.
Tubes are always listed as RMS. Is this the apples and oranges you mentioned?

To get back to the OP's original question..here's my cheapskate's setup:
JVC KD-X320BTS Digital media receiver (does not play CDs) at Crutchfield.com I purchased it from Best Buy for $80

Kenwood KFC-6965S 6"x9" 3-way car speakers at Crutchfield.com
Purchased from Amazon for $32.54 (free shipping)

Pioneer TS-A1675R 6-1/2" 3-way car speakers — also fits many 6-3/4" openings at Crutchfield.com
Purchased from Amazon for $40.79 (free shipping)

For what I paid I am very satisfied with all components. The JVC head unit is very versatile and fine for average use. The Kenwood rears produce very good mid bass but, is not sub-woofer territory... though good enough for my 90's rock preference.
A member here: MotoCARR.. recommended this to me: http://www.crutchfield.com/S-ks7pSXn...ower-Pack.html for a moderate boost to lessen distortion and have more control over front and rear levels. No additional heavy gauge ground wiring involved.

eghatch9295

iTrader: (1)

congrats on your unusual luck with your homebrew system, still doesn't make you right.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-m...-speakers.html

Jimi Hondrix

Within that link you posted a reply by Bootzilla seems to be the best explanation:

"Driving an amp wont produce a square wave, the top of the wave will be cut and it will look more like a square wave but when someone can create a circuit that puts out a squarewave when clipped he should immediately start making an analogue synth pedal for bass/guitar (people will pay thousands).

There are two ways in which underpowering can cause speaker damage:

1. You overdrive the amp which makes it clip and produce extra harmonics which results in a higher output (usually most profound in the highs) which can blow the speaker (or tweeter that is not designed for a lot of highs).

2. You You overdrive the amp which makes it put out (way) more power than it's rated for. This can make the amp give so much power that it will overpower the speaker and thus blow it.

The two usually go hand in hand and result in speakers getting blow because of too much power (speakers are sometimes rated rather positively which doesn't help).

If clipping a waveform could destroy a speaker there would be thousands and thousands of guitarists and bassists buying new speakers every week. It is just completely not true.

The only way to prevent blowing speakers is listening to how it sounds and when you hear anything clip or flub or fart or similar you should turn down. Also buying speakers that can shred your ears before they shred the cones help .

In conclusion speakers don't blow because of underpowering but because of pushing amps past there limit (thinking your safe because it is rated lower) which puts out way more power than it's rated and overpowers the speaker. Clipping the amp will not blow the speaker if the amp is not overpowering the speaker. "

Let's be honest here.. what makes my guitar amp sound so good is my playing..not the speaker or tube design..LOL

TomCat39

The analogy is not ****, it's still wire. Put a bulb on a dimmer, dimming the bulb does not blow the bulb.

You gave the impression it's the under power that causes the problem, it's not. It's what happens when the speakers are under powered and it's a cheap amp in the head unit or a mismatched amp to the head unit. The speakers are quiet and the person turns it up to max. The **** amp start clipping because it's made poorly or... The head unit puts out more input than the amp (mismatched amp to head unit) can handle so the input gets clipped and amplified. It has nothing to do with the under power, and has EVERYTHING to do with the users actions and the quality of the amp.

This all boils down to, it's not specifically from being under powered. You can blow speakers even when the amp is perfectly matched up to the speakers by providing a bad input.

If you have a low power high QUALITY amp with the PROPER input for it, you can under power speakers ALL DAY LONG WITHOUT ISSUE. The reason being is the amp produces clean power through it's full range as long as the input is matched properly. Actually by design it's better to slightly under power the speakers so you never hit their max. You will never distort (assuming the music doesn't create a few flat spots) and you will reduce the heat cycling of the speaker and it will last substantially longer.

It's a lot more complicated than just being under powered, over powered or perfectly rating matched.

Simply put, it's what a user does when they start to hear the clipping (aka distortion) that blows speakers.

The nice part of this whole debate is pretty much all the details are there so people don't assume it's the under powering or the over powering that screwed up their speakers.

Now they can see it's what they did once they started hearing the distortion that killed their speakers.

------------------------------------

Back tracking a little bit. I believe I figured out why you said my analogy was ****. And I agree now even though I didn't figure it out from your simple statement. Instead I kept thinking about why the square wave kills the speaker being I remember we played the various waves through the speaker without harm.

You said dynamic vs static but I don't think that is as accurate. I think the problem lies in introducing a square wave into a compound wave. It doesn't have to be dynamic, just compound (multiple waves). A square wave by itself is fine in a speaker, the speaker moves to a certain position and holds as long as the voltage is there and then moves to the bottom part of the wave's position and holds. It's this holding that wreaks havoc in a compound wave methinks. When you have other wave forms wanting to keep the speaker moving and then you introduce a square wave, this hold behavior of the square wave is fighting the fluid motion of the sine waves. I suspect it's this conflict that overheats the coils and also why my analogy isn't fitting.

Does that sound about right?

Oh and by crank it, I meant turn up the gain (+db or turn a gain dial).

None the less, it's not about under, over or just right, it's about the clipping. You can clip and prevent clipping in all three situations.

Jimi Hondrix

Speaking of waves.. check this out:

TomCat39

I erred in my thinking.

It has to do with duty cycles so too much power gets put to the speaker.

Square waves by themselves don't harm the speaker which actually relates to what I had learned but also fits how they are used by musicians.

I found this allegedly from a Doctorate in Engineering:

Still, there is one major issue with my analogy. A speaker is driven by an amp, there is not an amplifier for a bulb. I don't really think the earth magnet plays a role in this phenomena. The amplifier on the other hand seems to be the critical factor. Also, static wave or compound wave forms doesn't seem to be the deciding factor ether.

I am correcting myself.

And that is more than enough for me. If I hear distortion, I'll back it off and if need be, investigate power ratings to see if any adjustments can be done to improve the situation, if not then an equipment swap to higher quality components.

Cheers

Not sure you car but if you are doing a hatchback, you might look into the MTX sub to add to your setup, it adds the missing bottom end.

http://www.crutchfield.ca/MTX_RT8PT_...p/236rt8pt.htm

You said 6x9's so sounds like a sedan or coupe with a trunk. Quality 6x9's with an empty trunk can do pretty good too.

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

Oblong speakers are awkward, and don't produce the best sound - it's just a nature of their shape. You're better served using an adapter plate to put a 5 1/4" speaker in the rear. Add some decent component 6.5" fronts, and you'll get better sound quality than even most OEM systems. You don't even really need a sub - they just help pick up the slack for the bottom end that your average speaker can't do.

What you buy comes down entirely to how much you're willing to spend, and how far you want to go with it. JL makes awesome hardware, but you'll be paying a pretty penny for it. Pioneer isn't bad. My next audio setup is going to be Blaupunkt and Sound Ordinance hardware, which is cheap but still good. You can actually piece together a complete setup with a Blaupunkt head unit, four Sound Ordinance 6.5" speakers, a .75 CF box, Alpine 12" Type S, and two Sound Ordinance amplifiers, for ~$750 from Crutchfield and have a decent setup. You won't be winning any sound competitions, but for the price, none of your friends will have anything better.

Jimi Hondrix

I have a '97 Civic EX coupe. Thanks for the sub link. Unfortunately, my a/c compressor bearing is sharting out on me.. got to take care of that first.