97Integra

My buddy tried to get his car bar'd today and he failed the smog test. He passed the visual but only failed Nox at 15mph. These are the results of the smog test.

......................%CO2.....%O2......I.......HC (PPM)........I....I......CO(%)...........I
Test.....Rpm......Meas......Meas......Max.....Ave. .....Meas.....Max.....Ave.....Meas
15.......1847......15.2.......0.0.........89...... .21........53.........0.53....0.06.....0.14
25.......2107......14.9.......0.0.........54...... .13........42.........0.51....0.05.....0.07


.......................................I......NO (PPM)........I
Test.....RPM......................Max.....Ave..... .Meas............Results
15.......1847.....................708......150.... ...858..............FAIL
25.......2107.....................746......136.... ...733..............PASS


Any info would be helpful. Please let me know of a way to lower the Nox on the car. We have to drop Nox by about 200 points for the 15mph. Thanks in advance.

Luserkid

My guess is cold cat. Was the car sitting for a while? At 15mph the car seems to be running a little on the lean side which im thinking is because the car was cold so it was trying to warm up. Everything else seems fine.

97Integra

I drove the car for an hour today and they turned the car off to do the visual and let it sit about 10 minutes. Before, when i did my pretest the drove the car for an hour and a half and they tested it right away and the Nox was a 745 which still wouldn't pass. What else could it be?

Luserkid

Did you get a print out on the pretest? If so what was the CO2 measure?

97Integra

Will get that printout later

97Integra

Anymore info would be greatly appreciated

Luserkid

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Luserkid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Did you get a print out on the pretest? If so what was the CO2 measure? </TD></TR></TABLE>

97Integra

Will get that tonight. My buddy has it at his house so i have to go get it from him. He does not have access to the internet. Do you think seafoam would help in this situation or even replacing othe o2 sensor?

Luserkid

Possibly but i would look more at the cat. The car had a tune up recently correct?

97Integra

Yeah the car had a tuneup about 2 weeks ago and has barely been driven since then. They replaced the oil, sparkplugs, distributor cap and rotor. Would the magnaflow cat's work?

SouthernCrane

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Luserkid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Possibly but i would look more at the cat. The car had a tune up recently correct? </TD></TR></TABLE>

i had the same issue the first time i went in. i would check the cat. what cat is your friend running right now? i bought a decent cat and passed pretty easily.....but it could be something else entirely.

97Integra

Mind you this pretest is based off the stock civic motor although the LS motor was in the car at the time. The Nox maximum on the LS is is 708 on the 15mph test and 746 for the 25mph test.


.....................%Co2....%02......I........HC( PPM).......I...I........CO(%)..........I
Test.....Rpm.....Meas.....Meas.....Max.....Ave.... .Meas.....Max.....Ave.....Meas
15.......1871.....14.8......0.0........97.......21 .......49........0.59.....0.06.....0.13
25.......2093.....14.8......0.0........62.......13 .......41........0.59.....0.05.....0.07

..........I.......NO(PPM)........I
Test.....Max.....Ave.....Meas.........Results
15.......731......150.....725...........Pass
25.......798......136.....461...........Pass

Luserkid

Yea your co2 is right on on the pretest. Im thinking its the cat thats your issue. Changing the o2 sensor wont matter becuase of the co2 count.

97Integra

TTT any more info or comments?

mormonboy

lolz damn. ca inspections r crazy.

here in washington, if your car is under 10 years old, they just plug a computer to your car n youre on youre way! other than that, they run the car on the rollers for like 10 seconds and youre set.

mrdeezy

Luserkid,why do you give advice when you have no expletiveing clue what you are talking about?Maybe thesmogman will chime in soon.

The car is NOT cold.
The cat is using all of the oxygen.
The car is NOT running lean.
When cats are bad usually all the readings are high across the board.
I would try some seafoam first.

Dr. Willy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mrdeezy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Luserkid,why do you give advice when you have no expletiveing clue what you are talking about?Maybe thesmogman will chime in soon.

The car is NOT cold.
The cat is using all of the oxygen.
The car is NOT running lean.
When cats are bad usually all the readings are high across the board.
I would try some seafoam first. </TD></TR></TABLE>

wow pretty harsh talking to someone who only has 46 post vs someone with over 11000 posts.... And no if your cat is bad it doesnt mean it will though hight numbers all the way across, when the cat went bad in my prelude it was only high in a couple of places not all over the chart

97Integra

No need for negativity or personal attacks on this topic. I was just asking to see if there were other alternatives to lowering NOx.

Luserkid has been more then helpful on my other topics, has always responded quickly and with much insight. He has helped me with other things before and I have never met him personally. So I vouch for him so there is no need to attack him. He was just making a suggesstion on what the problem can possibly be and that is why this is an open forum where we can discuss the topic and make our own suggestions.

So if you have something negative to say please keep it to yourself or add a solution to the problem. Don't just shoot down a possible solution without giving a reason why and without giving a better solution.

Let's keep it peaceful and let's help my buddy BAR his car. Thanks

Luserkid

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mrdeezy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Luserkid,why do you give advice when you have no expletiveing clue what you are talking about?Maybe thesmogman will chime in soon.

The car is NOT cold.
The cat is using all of the oxygen.
The car is NOT running lean.
When cats are bad usually all the readings are high across the board.
I would try some seafoam first. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh darn you caught me, i guess since i BAR'd over 10 cars i dont know whats going on in the smog world. **** i guess i should just get out of the honda game and use miracle seafoam instead. I mean cheap advertising over experience right?

And uh... 15.2 when your suppose to be at 14.5-14.7 isnt lean, oh my mistake gee i must not know how to read a/f ratios huh? If its off just a little like it is now it would cause problems for smogging if the cat isnt up to pare. If the cat was 100% it would have passed no problem. I will say this majority of the time cats fail due to over under burned fuel not usually leaned mixtures but if its a 200k cat or could be a faulty cat who knows. The HC and CO readings look to be low because of a tune up (which i asked about and the owner said was done). If you look at the numbers from the pretest and the real test something NOx drops dramatically when at 25mph even though the readings are the same on both test. This leads me to believe the cat is going bad. If he goes again and the readings drop even lower but the HC and CO are the same (like pretest and real test) what do you think it is? And nice engine clean of seafoam to do it? Sure buddy Seafoam is a great cleaner but if he has to smog again then what? Why not fix the problem now and not have to deal with it again.

Dr. ***** - Thanks for the support but really post count doesnt mean much. Theres a couple of names that i wont mention that have high post counts but dont know **** and just post just to post.

97Integra - How old is the cat?

thesmogman

So lets go thru this as there are some things that need straightened out.

1. The cat.. Look at the O2 reading. It is at 0.0 the cat is using the oxygen so it is good.

2. An O2 sensor might be it as the cat needs the proper lean/rich swapping. Which might be hindering the cats ability to reduce Nox.

3. Seafoam... If a new motor...NO! if a motor that has 100K or more on it YES.

Now for some Q's
What is the timing at?
What is your spec?
What octane did you run?
What aftermarket parts installed?
Let me know these and I will have an answer.

grayegcivic

Luserkid help me pass my BAR amongst others...so yeah...he know what he's talking about!!

97Integra

Luserkid-Not sure how old the motor or cat are. The cat came with the swap and the swap is a 95 usdm motor so I am really not sure on how old it is. I am pretty confident in saying that the motor has more than 100,000 miles.

thesmogman-
Now for some Q's
What is the timing at? It looks like on the paperwork that timing was at 15btdc
What is your spec? It's a 1993 civic hatch with a 95 LS Motor stock
What octane did you run? 89
What aftermarket parts installed? Just an AEM intake.

Thanks for all that have given me their input and their time.

thesmogman

OK, we can get you thru. So here is what I would do...

Seafoam just through a vacuum line not in the oil or gas tank. IM me for how I do it.

Timing? a 95 LS? is it a B16 or what car did the motor come out of so I can see your spec for that motor. If the spec is 15 we need to drop it 1 or 2 degrees.

Run 87 octane it burns cooler which is what we want to lower Nox.

With those three I would think it would pass.

97Integra

The motor is a 1995 integra ls motor B18b. From the paper the timing says 15 but i have to look into the specs of what the minimum and maximum timing could be.

thesmogman

Spec is 16btdc as for the limits it is + or - 2 degrees. Go with 14.