willisjefferyl

Not sure if this is relevant but over the past few days temps here in southwest VA have dropped close to zero degrees.

For a few days I have also been hearing some sort of noise on start up, kind of like a power steering related sound.

Anyhow, I started the car as usual to let the engine warm before taking off to work. It struggled a bit do to the cold but cranked up. I heard that bearing roaring sound again. After letting the car idle for about 10 min, I took off. Everything was going as planned until all of the sudden I hear a pop/ thump sound and the engine oil light came on immediately. i had no place to stop and luckily made it another 100 yds up the highway where I found a parking lot to pull into. At this time I had lost almost all engine power. The engine temp never budged from the proper zone. I also noticed the intake/exhaust had gotten louder? Once I pulled the car into a safe spot, it pretty much sputtered out and dies.

At this point I pop the hood to see if a belt had broken and see a bit of oil on the timing belt ( no top timing cover) and notice a small puddle of oil leaking on the ground directly under the oil pan/ crank pulley area. I waited about 10 min or so and gave the car a crank to see if the engine would turn over. In somewhat of relief the engine turned. After 3 or 4 trys to start, it acted as if it was going to crank up but never did. At this time I left it alone and had it towed to my house. When driving my fiances car back to meet the tow truck, I noticed a small stream of oil on the highway at the exact spot I heard the belt breaking/ gasket blow out sound. After the car was moved I also noticed the puddle of oil on the ground was very black and thick. Very unusual for new oil.

Once I got the car home I took another look at the engine a bay. It appears that the nasty black oil/ gunk is on the back side of the block close to where the oil filter is. It also looks like some may be inside the timing cover although it isnt puddled up in there or anything. I haven't had a chance to tear into it yet as I wasn't for sure where to start. I was thinking oil pump or sticking relief valve( due to the cold?) , hell it may have blown the seal out at my oil filter for all I know. The oil levels on the dipstick still look good so I didn't lose much oil. Would the freezing temps be a suspect in this? Possible the block cracked?

Any suggestions info would be greatly appreciated as Ill be tearing into this weekend to see what my damage is.

Heres a bit of a background:

-Bought car around 220,000
-Car now has about 250, 000
-HG was changed about 10, 000 miles ago which contributed to replacement of entire cooling system before replacing HG.
-Maybe 1500 miles ago, I had the timing belt off and replaced water pump
-coolant was flushed and oil was just changed, however I reused the oil filter since oil change was around 1500 miles.
-All levels were dead on the marks
-No leaks anywhere except what appears to be a minor cam gear seal leak
-Minor engine modification (Intake/ all exhaust replaced including adding header replacing catalytic converter/ O2 sensor)
-Car was running great and pulling strong for only having maybe 100 hp.

tony_2018

Inspect oil pump seal, inpect oil filter. Do you usually check oil before starting your car? Considering the miles that it has collected i would've expect the motor to go at any given moment and one of the things I would do is usually check the oil. If you did was it black or a dark golden brown on the dipstick that day when this happen?

TomCat39

My first thought would be oil pump.

But you also mentioned you didn't change your oil filter when you did your oil. Depending on the filter will depend on whether there is a safety valve inside it. Once it becomes clogged it starves the motor of oil and over works your oil pump. I would always change your filter regardless when the oil changes, unless it was 200 miles or less on the filter. 1500 miles is half way and enough to change in my opinion.

I still suspect your oil pump gave up the ghost. I'd also check your oil pressure sending unit being you said you have oil around the filter area too. I would also be checking your front main seal and cam seal being you said you have oil on your timing belt.

And I would put on a new timing belt belt being it's not brand new and you got oil on it and probably didn't clean it off immediately. The oil will compromise the integrity of the belt, just might take time before you find out about it and then it's much more costly.

You'll be dropping the oil pan for sure.

willisjefferyl

9 times out of 10, I check the oil every time. I even keep a weekly check on coolant levels since dealing with the HG overheating issue. However, this day I didn't check it but I did check the day before. The oil on the dipstick looked good. It actually still looks good after what happened. When I first got the car I did notice there would always be black oil at the bottom of the dipstick. I figured there were prob a lot of gunk down in the oil pan. The head of the engine is pretty clean though.

willisjefferyl

oil filter was royal purple, I believe it was the extended life one. Oil was typical 5w 30 nothing special.

willisjefferyl

Yeah, I thought id be pulling that oil pan off eventually. It doesnt look like much oil at all on the timing belt. I just wanted to make note that there were some on it to help with diagnosis. How much oil would need to be on it to still recommend a belt? The belt was replaced when I bought it, so only has about 25k miles on it. however, I do know its better to be safe than sorry. I was gonna try and order parts and gaskets/seals so things would shipped and ready to install by the weekend. I know i will need the oil pan gasket. Think I should go ahead and order/replace the oil pump? Cranks seal? timing belt?

94EG8

Sounds like it threw a rod and punched a hole through the back of the block. Inspect the back of the block carefully and pull the pan before you order anything.

TomCat39

I had this thought too but wasn't sure if it should be mentioned, I would think this would have made a huge pop sound and be horribly visible. I assumed OP would have noted the hole. Then again it may have just been a quick inspection and not a thorough one.

If you don't have any holes in your block and all the con rods are still intact, the worry of the timing belt is that if not cleaned off right away the oil can seep into the material causing premature failure. I've always heard oil and timing belts are a bad thing. I don't hhave any actual experience with that aspect so can't say definitively.

I think in light of all of this, before ordering parts, I'd just drop the oil pan and get a good look at your rods to be sure they are still attached and intact. You part might be a new engine.

willisjefferyl

yeah, I will prob hold off on ordering stuff until I can tear into it. I would have thought that if a rod punched a hole in the block there would have been a lot more oil loss. I will def examine the suspicious area around the oil filter and will be pulling that oil an off. What size of a hole are we talking about? a fracture in the aluminum, pen hole, or something the size of a quarter or bigger?

94EG8

If you get oil on a timing belt in any amount consider it garbage. For the price they cost it's not worth screwing around.

Exactly.

The hole size depends. I've seen broken rods on these things punch through both sides of the block and the oil pan, sometimes they don't. It might not have even make a hole but rather a crack. Also sometimes they punch a hole in the block behind the AC compressor bracket and you can't see it with the AC compressor in place.

willisjefferyl

So after a long week of anticipation, I waas finally able to get a break in the weather this morning to take a better look at things. Here's what I see.

First off, I gave the engine a few cranks to see if it the engine would still turn over. Engine still cranks but didnt start. It almost sounds like the timing is off or something is stopped up (first thought was oil pump), stopping oil flow and preventing pressure from building.

The oil I thought was coming out of the back of the engine appears to be coming from out of the timing cover and puddling up on the bottom of the block. (this leads me to think oil pump gone due to pump failure)

As far as I can tell, I see no holes around that area. I cant tell for certain if there is any cracks yet until I can get some of the components (alternator, timing cover, etc) out of my way to get a better view.

I haven't dropped the oil pan yet due to heavy rain all day here in VA. I didn't want to leave the bottom of the engine exposed to the weather.

The most interesting thing I found was that the timing belt is extremely loose, as if it has completely lost its tension. I cant tell yet if the timing is off but I had two scenarios in mind. Does either sound like it could be a possibility?

Scenario 1:
Timing belt tensioner came loose, engine jumped timing, bad timing caused oil pump failure

Scenario 2:
Oil pump failure, timing belt tension lost, engine jumped timing

94EG8

I'll be quite honest with you. I've never seen an oil pump failure on a Honda other due to assembly error.

It's possible that the tensioner somehow got ripped out of the block and there's oil leaking around the mounting boss though. You really wont know until you pull it apart.

willisjefferyl

Well, I never messed with the oil pump on this car but did have the timing belt off, crank pulley off, and switched out the water pump a few weeks back. I haven't had any issues though. Its very possible I could have under torqued the tensioner. Looks like the rain is about to clear up here and Im going to get the crank pulley, timing cover, and belt off.
Anything to keep an eye out for while digging through the mess?

Just assuming its not the oil pump, what do you think could be stopping it firing up? timing?

Should I adjust to TDC even with the possibility the timing may be out?

clean95hatch

Oil deteriorates rubber. So timing belt is junk.
Really sounds like, for one reason or another, your motor jumped out of timing. You are explaining symptoms of pretty classic piston and valve smashing.
I do not think that you threw a rod because 1) you managed to continue to drive it a short distance, 2) it cranks over, and 3) there are no signs of a thrown rod.

Usually, if a piston or rod becomes disconnected from the rotating assembly, there is no mistaking it. When you crank a motor over, it would make god awful sounds and vibrations.

I think you are too focused on the oil pump. Yes, it is high mileage, so its condition could be questionable, but a failed oil pump wouldn't cause your motor to spontaneously pop and lose power. It would simply starve your motor of oil.

To be honest, I think 250k out of a little Honda motor is pretty admirable. I wouldn't try too hard to revive it, or the car. Definitely look into it, and if you can get it back into running shape for less than a couple hundred dollars, then sure, but I don't think it's likely.
I do not think a rod or piston broke loose, but I do still suspect your block may have been compromised one way or another with oil leakage like that.

94EG8

I wont deny that at this point it appears to at least partially be a timing issue but throwing a rod wont prevent the engine from running in the short term. I've driven a civic on the trailer, backed it off the trailer and driven it into the garage after throwing a rod. It wont have any power but it will continue to run for a while until it seizes from lack of oil.

slow_teg

250k miles just let her die and do a swap

willisjefferyl

So I just took the timing cover and found the cuprit. At first I noticed some metal pieces at the bottom of the timing belt area. Once I starting looking for a busted seal, I noticed a huge chunk out of the top of the oil pump housing. I guess thats what it is, right behind the crank pulley where the bottom timing gear is? or is this the area the block? It looks like that section is removable.

I actually have a swap in the planning but wasnt trying to get to it till a bit later this year. I hope I can get this one back going until then.

tony_2018

You know a picture would work just fine.

willisjefferyl

Heres pic of that broke f** ker! I popped the oil pan down and checked everything out. everything seems to be ok, def a little nasty up in there after 250k. So Im guessing the pump didnt fail, the housing just broke, lost compression, and was throwing a little oil out in timing area. At least thats my theory. Any thoughts?

Think Ima try yo grab a new pump tomorrow with a timing belt, oil pan gasket, fresh oil change and def a new filter. Any suggestions on the install? Ive read to make the pumps are primed, but never installed one so advice is def welcome.

willisjefferyl

Just wanted to make a note. I set the cam at TDC before dis-assembling anything. When I went to remove the timing gear, I noticed the crank pulley key was alligned with the mark on the oil pump. So its pretty much a tooth or so out of timing. According to the manual, the key should be at 90 degrees and the mark about 1 oclock from the key should allign with the mark. Confirmation on this would be great. should I just put the crank bolt back in, turn the crank enough to allign the marks, then remove the oil pump?

94EG8

The keyway will point straight up (12 o'clock) at TDC. The mark on the crank gear will line up with the pointer on the oil pump. It doesn't matter where the crank is when assembling the oil pump, just for putting the timing belt on.

Ross 2.0

The insides look too clean to have thrown a piece of metal off like that.
Did you have a lower timing cover on it? It wouldn't be impossible for a rock to have dropped in there and got wedged in at just the right chance.

Also with putting the pump in I would just make sure it has a thin film of oil in it. Otherwise I would just unplug the distributor and crank it for a few seconds before I tried to start it.

willisjefferyl

yeah I thought it seemed clean too and a bit strange as well at first. I mean this is a good size piece of metal. So Once I got the pump off, I could see why the housing busted out. Looks like the gear in the pump got hung up and shattered.







As much as a pain in taking it off, I always keep the lower timing cover on. I def think it was the internals that failed on this guy.

However, I got the new pump on, well, it was a Melling pump, hopefully it holds up for a while. I filled it with oil and rotated the gears until oil pumped out before the install. After a long day of cleaning up the oil pan, putting the new gasket on, new timing belt, and getting everything bolted back up, it was the time of truth. I rotated the engine a few time by hand and everything sounded fine. I popped the spark plug wires off and gave it a few good cranks, then put the plug wires bcak on.. (drum roll)

It cranked and cranked, starter sounded funny so I stopped for a sec. Gave it another crank except this time I pumped the gas pedal a little. It fired right up. I let it run for a bit. After turning it off the first time it didnt seem to want to start back. I gave it a little fuel and voila, it cranked right up again. I let it run for about 10-15 min to bring the temp up and check for leaks around the gaskets. Took it for a spin and let it sit for a few hours. Just checked and not a single drop of oil underneath. Its hard to believe there is a whole quart of nasty black gunk oil in the bottom of 250k oil pan. Good thing I picked up an extra quart for this job.

Thanks for the input guys. Another d-series is back on the road!

MisereNoire

...not really that hard to believe about the gunk...it depends on the oil used throughout the life of the engine...I sure hope you cleaned that pan out good...considering the failure might have arisen from the pump dragging that **** up from the pan.. and considering the clearance needed for the pump to draw oil and not just swirl it around the pickup, any gunk, as it were, would just interfere.

Ross 2.0

The gunk is the reason the pump failed. Was it all in the strainer tube too?