TomCat39

Following your video, the first thing you pointed at was the plenum of the intake manifold. The spring part you pointed at and I think said something about PB blasting was part of the throttle body. It's the butterfly actuator the throttle cable connects to. The tube you followed from the top of the throttle body goes down to the evap canister. The solenoid you ordered also runs to that same evap canister as well as a small nipple on the back of the runner of the intake manifold. The tube you pointed to on the back middle of the plenum of the IM goes to the VX exclusive Exhaust Gas Re-circulation controller on the firewall (the little black box). The empty ring you pointed at on the right of the engine is for a power steering tube. The VX doesn't come with power steering so that holder ring is empty. And yeah, your solenoid and filter seem intact. Not sure how your mechanic thinks it's broken unless he can elaborate. The larger tube you followed is the brake booster vacuum line going from the IM to the brake booster.

All your tubes appear to be connected.

The one thing that did stick out a little odd is the wire loom that was sorta through the empty holder ring you pointed at on the right side. That doesn't look normal. Would like to see it followed as I think it was added after the fact.

Intake Manifold = IM
Throttle Body = TB
Exhaust Gas Re-circulation = EGR

Here is what stock wiring should look like on your VX except you may not have the daytime running lights box on the shock tower.

rickkane

[QUOTE=TomCat39;52162570] The tube you followed from the top of the throttle body goes down to the evap canister. The solenoid you ordered also runs to that same evap canister as well as a small nipple on the back of the runner of the intake manifold.

The tube TomCat is talking about above is what I'm talking about. Do me a favor and start the car, then pull that hose off the throttle body and put your finger over the hole on the nipple and see if the surging stops. I swear that's causing it! 🤞

deschlong

iTrader: (8)

Check the tubing under the PCV (blue valve thing on throttle body (TB)): Reach under behind the TB and you'll find a tube that goes from the TB under the blue valve over to the other side on the block. Check if it's connected on both ends.

Root16

Thanks for the detailed reply TomCat! And everyone else. So I went out to check out where the PCV thing was, but I also wanted to show my housemate (smart guy overall) my engine. He asked me to start it. I was sort of trying to avoid starting it because there is something else wrong that I didn't mention. The distributor is leaking badly. On Sunday, before Moe left, he said the distributor probably has a bad O ring. So I ordered one and am waiting for it to arrive. Just a heads up there is some swearing in the below video. Moe is a bit of a choleric, and he wanted to be done 'yesterday'....


Today is Thursday. The last time the car was run was Sunday (I drove the car home from the garage to my house, a ten minute drive). I started the cold motor and this time instead of surging idle it has a climbing idle. It slowly climbed to above 3000PRM. Even when I shut the car off before it got that high, when I started it again a minute or two later, it continued to climb from where it left off. Also, rather alarming, is that a bunch of white smoke came out of the exhaust. Now I'm afraid to run the motor, but I'm curious how it will behave once the motor gets to operating temp. I suppose it's safe to run the motor since it's not making any horrendous sounds.

Some notes about the second video:
1. Very cold engine, hadn't been run in almost 4 days.
2. The engine starts blowing white smoke about 30 seconds after being started.


About 2+ hours later...

I decided to start the motor again to see how bad the smoke was (and the color) and to see the behavior of the idle once the motor got to temp. But with the idle still climbing ever higher (over 4k after 3 minutes of running) I decided against waiting for the motor to warm up. Plus the exhaust smelled like a lawnmower or worse (smelled a little like burning rubber). Smoke wasn't very thick considering that the RPMs were so high:


Some notes about the third video:

1. I started and stopped the motor 3 times during this video with between 1 and 2 minutes between each start.
2. At around 33 seconds into the video I film the smoke from the side and it appears much less thick (almost completely translucent).
3. I never touched the gas pedal. Not before, not during and not after. Except when I drove the car forward a few feet.
4. The RPM drops at one point: that's because I drove the car forward a few feet.
5. At one point I turn the car off at about 3000RPM. When I start it up again about 90 seconds later, the rev is back at 3000, it doesn't slowly climb from 2000 again. Instead, it just "picks up where it left off" and continues to climb from 3000rpm.
6. The tailpipe was filmed at two different times during this video (each time shortly after shutting down the motor). Both times the engine was off when I filmed the exhaust.

I haven't tried any of the DIY suggestions yet. I'm waiting to hear back from Moe. I think at this point I'd rather him try the various diagnostic measures as I have no tools. If I don't hear back from him by tomorrow morning I may go out and buy some tools and try tackling it tomorrow. (It's also super cold today, a raw 38F).

Good news: Moe got back to me; says he'll call me later.

rickkane

After thinking a little further about this. I think it might be this little guy:

this is looking at the back side (intake manifold side) of the motor right under the throttle body. That cover I'm holding comes off and gives you access to this little guy. If you get a flat blade screw driver into either of those slots you can turn it in or out. I remember having a cold start surge that went away when warmed up. Turning this in cured it. That's the idle air control valve. I believe you can adjust it with the engine running so you'll know when you have it right. Sorry for the long post.
Let us know what happens! Also be psyched that @deschlong visited your post. That dude is a LEGEND!

TomCat39

It's burning oil badly. If it was coolant burning, it would dissapate pretty quickly, while that looked like it was hanging in the air pretty long,

Light amounts of oil will look blue in tint but larger amounts of oil burning is thick white clouds that just carry in the wind.

If that is your "new" motor, I think you got a dud.

I also think you have a sizable vacuum leak. That would do both idle surge as well as high idling.

A dry and wet compression test on the cold motor could be quite telling. You should ask Moe to do a dry then when compression test.

Root16

EEEEEEEK I hope not! Is there any chance it's steam/condensation due to the fact it was cold out and the engine hadn't run for a few days? If you watched the white smoke video where I film the smoke from the side it's quite translucent (can hardly see it when filmed from the side). Watch the video from the 0:33 mark. Also, I didn't notice any smoke coming out of the tail pipe on Sunday when Moe was trying to find the solution to the high/surging idle (the engine was warmer at that time). I drove it very gingerly the 10 min from the garage to my house. On the other hand, checking the oil today, it was significantly lower than when I checked before leaving the garage on Sunday: from the top of the dipstick to about 2/3 'full' on the dipstick. Car was on a slight slope, though, and the dizzy is leaking pretty badly.

I do agree, though, the way the engine was running today was concerning (but is that mostly because of the very high revving when very cold?)

deschlong

iTrader: (8)

TBH, I suggest you leave it to Moe to diagnose and resolve. If you're not good with car tech (not a "car guy") then leave it to him instead of running the motor and potentially making things worse or causing other issues, even unknowingly. Diagnostics are a systematic thing and I am disinclined to let anyone else interrupt my diagnostics of a problem with a project before I'm finished. Leave it be for now to him!

Root16

I didn't hear from Moe this evening. Last time we talked on Sunday he advised me to let the engine warm up before driving the car (though he did advise me not to drive it very much). Seems to me the way it's revving so high when cold, that if I were to start the engine, it'd be better to drive it immediately and just drive it easy; that would at least keep the RPMs down (that's how I drove it from the garage to my house; low RPM, and easy on the gas pedal). Anyway, I hope we can chat soon and get on the same page about the next steps.

@rickkane: I thought that was the Fast Idle Thermo Valve? Anyway, I spent over an hour looking for this part and I couldn't find it!

I couldn't find the Fast Idle Thermo Valve (FITV) but I know I got pretty close!

TomCat39

Root, this is probably some of the best advise provided to you in your thread so far.

I would highly recommend you heed the advise deschlong provided. It is very sound advise and will probably help your restoration considerably.

JRCivic1

The FITV (Fast Idle Thermo Valve) is the "little guy" you were working on a few posts above here. When you start the car, if you place a finger over the FITV hole in the front of the throttle body opening at the 8 o'clock position, the car should idle perfectly if this is your only problem. If covering this hole does NOT reduce the high idle, you will need to look elsewhere.

deschlong

iTrader: (8)

Some of you have forgotten that the D15Z1 does not have an FITV. Poor guy is on a wild goose chase for something that doesn't exist on his car!
Note its conspicuous absence in the diagram in @TomCat39 's post #11.

TomCat39

That's funny, I have 2 of them downstairs and I didn't even notice that detail. Probably because most of my time has been on the B7 and Z6 motors.

Thanks for the kind reminder of another unique aspect of this special motor.

94 Civic Si

Fixing what looks like an auto-correct...

Root16

Just got off the phone with Moe. From what I described about the white smoke to him he thinks the engine has a blown head gasket, soo... yaaaaaayyyyyyyyy.

deschlong

iTrader: (8)

So this is why it's important not to run the motor. Let Moe sort it out and I'm actually quite confident you'll be on the road again. (Was it worth it to swap motors though? Always a gamble and a surprise!)

chrysler kid

Is this a picture of your mechanic

Good work isn't cheap and cheap work isnt good. Your guy doesnt know what he's doing and hes going to keep taking your money and making your car worse

Root16

Can you elaborate on specifics why you think he doesn't know what he is doing? I knew I was taking a risk hiring at $25/hr versus going to a shop at $100/hr. I'm not saying I disagree with you, I would just like to know specifics. I was disappointed when he said doing a leakdown or compression test were not necessary when I asked him if he was going to do those before he had pulled the still working motor from my car.

I appreciate everyone's advice, but I want to make it clear Moe never said I shouldn't run the motor. He said to keep an eye on the oil because of the oil leak from the distributor. If you watch the video in post #22 of him trying to find the idle issue, he doesn't seem concerned that the engine is being revved to 4000+RPM during that time. The engine wasn't blowing smoke on Sunday and it ran fine on the ride home to my house.

There is something I didn't mention earlier because I wasn't 100% sure what Moe was talking about at the time: on Sunday he mentioned there were air bubbles in the fluids, but he didn't say which fluids. Last night (Friday night), on the phone, he confirmed what I was suspecting: that the air bubbles he was talking about were in the coolant. He did not bleed the coolant on Sunday because he was short on time and didn't want to strip or break the bleed screw, so he said something to the effect the air bubbles would work themselves out over time (not sure if that's true). I've been 'reading up' on the coolant system and Eric the Car Guy says air bubbles in the coolant system can compromise the coolant of doing its job. That said, I never saw my temp gauge go above operating temp, and I drove very slowly on the 6 mile trip home and was in the highest gear possible at all times. I don't think I had the engine above 2000RPM at any given time, and the car was moving the entire time (no traffic, no traffic lights). I didn't like the idea of the engine being revved so much at the garage, so I drove it super gingerly.

Then the car sat for almost 4 days. I start it up on Thursday and you can see in the second video on post #29 how much time goes by after the stone cold motor on that cold day (Thursday) is started until it is blowing white smoke, because right after it starts blowing smoke I get out of the car. It ran for a half a minute before it started blowing white smoke.

In the below video a Tacoma is blowing white smoke. The vehicle threw a CEL, though, a misfire in #3 cylinder; the spark plug was pulled and shown to have coolant on it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d6pUwtoGFE#t=25s

Thanks again to everyone for their input. I appreciate it.

deschlong

iTrader: (8)

I think it's premature and harsh, and respectfully disagree with assessments of mechanic abilities given only second-hand info over the internet.

TomCat39

I suspect Moe will be just fine even though I disagree with not doing compression/leakdown tests. There is a good chance the head gasket issue would have been noted beforehand instead of all the work of putting it in and finding it.

None the less, the motor does not have to be pulled to fix assuming the block is flat (typically is). It tends to be the head that needs the machine shop work.

You car won't tend to throw misfire codes unless it's so bad you will notice it yourself first. I've had one of these cars valves so out of adjustment the car sounded like a subaru and still didn't throw a CEL. I dover roughly 15 blocks like this and parked it to fix the next day once the motor was cold.

If Moe doesn't know what he's doing, it will take more time to know for sure. Overall, it appears he's competent. I also suspect he hasn't had to contend with everyone second guessing him or providing his clients with all kinds of information that may or may not be relevant to the situation. As such he probably hasn't disclosed all of his observances as he probably tends to withhold a little information to prevent worrying the client.

I am with deschlong, just let him continue and don't fret with the suggested items of feedback you get from your updates on here. Let Moe do his job and I suspect you will have a good running little car shortly.

If you knew how to do the work yourself, then advise from the fourms is warranted, while right now it just makes the problems worse more often than not, including possibly loosing your mechanic.

chrysler kid

You're all right and I am being a keyboard jockey on my assessment of his abilities

I dont care what mechanic you have, rule 1 of testing his old engine would have been a compression test. Rule 2 of buying a used engine is to test the new engine for compression because most junkyards or resellers offer a 30 day warranty

Never underestimate your own abilities. You will always be the smartest person to work on your own car.

Again as mentioned, having bought a honda factory service manual and being thorough in my research I was able to repair my own car. I find you having to run out for last minute part runs a little silly because it sounds like he just slapped the motor in there and really didnt care about doing the job thoroughly, he just wanted to finish what you asked him to do

I highly encourage all members to work on their own cars. To put it in relative terms, the D series engine is the chevy small block of the import world. They are very simple to work on and very simple designs that take hardly any expetise to work on

The fact that you registered for this forum, that you know what engine code you have, and you know what the parts are called already tells me you have the intelligence to fix this yourself at a much more thorough level than moe.

On the second hand if you make bank and don't have the time to do it yourself then you'll just have to double check his work by doing a little extra research

Root16

I pretty much agree with everything in the last three replies, but I'll focus on @Chyrsler_kid.

Usually when I bring my car to someone to repair they order the parts and they up front all the costs. But I guess since Moe is charging me so little he expected me to buy all the parts and provide them on time for the repairs. I wasn't planning on replacing the clutch because I figured the clutch was still relatively new. I did suspect the pressure plate was possibly worn, and I suppose that suspicion was enough reason to buy a new clutch given that the motor was coming out, but I didn't, and that really was my fault, not Moe's (I got lucky that there was one in stock not too far away from me). I don't get the impression from Moe that he doesn't care. I think he does, and I think he's honest. And I think he takes pride in doing good work. A large part of the problem with this job was that he doesn't have his driver's license right now and had to take a bus from the other side of the state to work on my car. And I sort of kept throwing extra things at him like the valve adjustment and then he had to wait for the clutch. He had plans to spend Greek Easter Sunday with his girlfriend (last Sunday) and he really didn't want to be working on Sunday, hence the situation where we are now, with air in the coolant and idle issues. Even so, he still took time out of his Sunday to try to get the idle down, which I took as him wanting to finish the job right.

I generally work a lot which is partly why I'm not too keen to do the work myself, though I really should because I only earn $18/hr. It's actually kind of ironic that the one time I'm being advised not to work on my car I actually feel like I really want to tackle it and see what I can do. That said...

I just got off the phone with Moe again and he still seems convinced it's a blown head gasket. He advised me to try to cash in on the 90 day warranty the motor came with from the salvage yard; see if they will warranty any of the labor, and whether they'll send me a good head. Moe is concerned we don't know the condition of the rest of the motor, is the head cracked? Won't be able to know until he takes the head off. He also told me (I didn't ask, he just brought it up) that he did a compression test after the motor was in and said one of the cylinders was low and that the valves were closing late: he thinks the valves were timed to the improperly installed timing belt, and now that the timing belt is installed right the valves are not seated right. (I may not have gotten all that exactly right; but that was the general gist at least).

The same salvage yard has another D15Z1 with 88,000 miles (the one I got has 82,000). With all the problems the current motor seems to have do I really want to invest more time into it? On the other hand, the idea of pulling the motor, having another one shipped, putting on new seals again, and installing it seems like it's gonna cost at least another $1000 even with the cost of the bad motor refunded. What a headache!

What would you do in my shoes?

TomCat39

88,000 or 82,000 is not a lot of miles. This one has issues. I'd take a chance on the other one. Odds are in favor you already hit the low mileage lemon. Moe could be quite right that previous owner had the mechanical timing wrong and it went sideways from there. Probably driven a fair amount in out of spec conditions causing all the problems for them to scrap it.

If I did get the 88,000 motor on warranty, I would do a cold compression test before it even got swapped into the car (I did this with the Z6 I recently put into my car). If the compression test comes out fairly consistent across all the cylinders, then you know to proceed with new seals and then put it in the car.

I did pretty much this but I still ran into the problem of the new oil seals not holding. As such I have had to up the repair side and just got done putting another set of brand new seals in. It happens.

But really it's up to you and Moe. He leans towards the other motor by the sounds but really, it's always kind of a crap shoot getting motor you haven't seen run beforehand.

Root16

Actually Moe's idea is to take the head off my old motor and put it on the current motor. But first have the valves on the 'new' motor examined and repaired/adjusted by a local shop that I guess specializes in that sort of thing.

Moe said the compression numbers for the 'new' motor were around 125 with the suspect cylinder around 115. I told him that seemed very low and that the optimum compression was around 180psi for this motor. He disagreed with me on that point and said Honda motors aren't that high. But my research has the 'acceptable' range from 135psi at the very lowest and 185psi at the very upper end. (I would appreciate any input on this point).

Moe says it was a one time thing to put the motor in using his uncle's shop. I found a used motor on eBay with 180psi across all 4 cylinders for $1049, shipping included. But if I go that route, I'd have to find another garage for Moe to use to install it. Easier said than done. I'm leery of investing more into this motor without having a deeper understanding of what is actually involved and what sort of problems we may discover about the motor once we remove the head. I can easily see this being one bad financial decision after another with me being out thousands and not even able to have a 'very good/excellent' condition motor at the end of it. I think Moe was saying he suspects the head to be bad, not just the headgasket (because of the timing belt issues aforementioned at the start of this thread). I'm not sure what to make of the low compression numbers. I'm not sure if that was a wet or dry compression test (it may have been a wet test as he said something about putting a little oil in the cylinders). Moe said the reason he didn't do a compression test before putting the motor in is because you don't get as accurate reading unless the motor is actually in the car (which to me makes sense since you have to "start" the motor in order to perform the test, correct?)

"Burned valves: If the results remain the same, one of the valves are bad or not seating correctly. Low compression in only one cylinder typically indicates a bad valve. Exhaust valves burn due to hot gases passing through. Intake valves have the added advantage of fuel flow, keeping them cooler." https://www.freeasestudyguides.com/c...cting-oil.html While Moe says there's something not right with the valve on the low compression cylinder, I think he is stopping short of saying it's outright "bad" or beyond repair because he thinks the motor is otherwise running very smoothly (10 PSI doesn't seem like a very big discrepancy, either).

Moe thinks the head on my original motor is probably good, but said the bottom half of my original motor is bad (not sure how he arrived at that conclusion). So it does seem possible throwing my head on the the 'new' motor could be a good way to go. Not sure if I'd still have the low compression numbers, though?
The dream is for me to come out of this with a "like new" motor. I've got so many parts now invested in this car I really don't want to abandon ship now and buy a used Mazda 2, (even though that's looking very much like the more economical and sensible thing to do).

TomCat39

You don't start the motor to do a compression test. You crank it over. To do it outside the car, you hook up a transmission to the motor with a starter and use a battery and do your compression test. The numbers will be a little lower due to the engine being cold but you would have seen the dip in the one before hand and seen extremely low numbers.

If 125 psi is with oil, that is pretty bad.

I would expect close to 125 PSI on a cold motor on a dry test for the 5th gen. I had close to 150 on my Z6, cold outside of car. And I was pretty close to the same across all 4 which was good. The motor runs pretty good.

Factory Service Manual states 135 PSI minimum on a brand new motor, but keep in mind there is many factors involved here so matching that could be a wild goose chase.

If there was a burnt valve issue, a compression test would not be able to single that out. a leak down test would though.

I was under the impression the yard you got this motor from had a warranty and another motor on hand? I would go that route for cost savings before dropping a grand on ebay. It's still a crap shoot but you are only out time and a little money using the salvage yard scenario. Ebay is probably a more assured bet but also most costly. Does the salvage yard not run the motors and compression test them first before pulling them for sale?

It's your money, you should decide what rabbit hole is best for you.